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The tragedy of Argentina, A century of decline

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Mr.Mike

Member
http://www.economist.com/news/brief...na-was-future-what-went-wrong-century-decline

WHEN the residents of Buenos Aires want to change the pesos they do not trust into the dollars they do, they go to a cueva, or ”cave", an office that acts as a front for a thriving illegal exchange market. In one cueva near Florida Street, a pedestrian thoroughfare in the centre of the city, piles of pesos from previous transactions lie on a table. A courier is getting ready to carry the notes to safety-deposit boxes.

This smallish cueva handles transactions worth $50,000-75,000 a day. Fear of inflation and of further depreciation of the peso, which fell by more than 20% in January, will keep demand for dollars high. Few other ways of making money are this good. ”Modern Argentina does not offer what you could call an institutional career," says one cueva owner.

As the couriers carry their bundles around Buenos Aires, they pass grand buildings like the Teatro Colón, an opera house that opened in 1908, and the Retiro railway station, completed in 1915. These are emblems of Argentina's Belle Époque, the period before the outbreak of the first world war when the country could claim to be the world's true land of opportunity. In the 43 years leading up to 1914, GDP had grown at an annual rate of 6%, the fastest recorded in the world. The country was a magnet for European immigrants, who flocked to find work on the fertile pampas, where crops and cattle were propelling Argentina's expansion. In 1914 half of Buenos Aires's population was foreign-born.

The country ranked among the ten richest in the world, after the likes of Australia, Britain and the United States, but ahead of France, Germany and Italy. Its income per head was 92% of the average of 16 rich economies. From this vantage point, it looked down its nose at its neighbours: Brazil's population was less than a quarter as well-off.

It never got better than this. Although Argentina has had periods of robust growth in the past century—not least during the commodity boom of the past ten years—and its people remain wealthier than most Latin Americans, its standing as one of the world's most vibrant economies is a distant memory (see chart 1). Its income per head is now 43% of those same 16 rich economies; it trails Chile and Uruguay in its own back yard.

The political symptoms of decline are also clear. If Argentina appeared to enjoy stability in the pre-war era, its history since then has been marked by a succession of military coups. The first came in 1930; others followed in 1943, 1955, 1962, 1966 and 1976. The election of 1989 marked the first time in more than 60 years that a civilian president had handed power to an elected successor.

It is now more than 30 years since the end of military dictatorship, but democracy has not yet led to stability. Argentines reach for the metaphor of the ”pendulum" to describe the swings of the past three decades: from loose economic policies in the 1980s to Washington-consensus liberalisation in the 1990s and back again under the presidency of Néstor Kirchner and now his widow, Cristina Fernández de Kirchner. But the image of a pendulum does not do justice to the whiplashing of the economy (see charts 2 and 3)—the repeated recessions of the 1970s and 1980s, the hyperinflation of 1989-90, the economic crisis of 2001 and now the possibility of another crisis to come. Argentina is a long way from the turmoil of 2001 but today's mix of rising prices, wage pressures and the mistrust of the peso have nasty echoes of the past.

Internationally, too, Argentina has lost its way. It has shut itself out of global capital markets, although negotiations are under way to restructure its debts with the Paris Club of international creditors. Brazil, hardly a free-trade paragon, is pressing Argentina to open its borders; once it would have been the other way round. ”Only people this sophisticated could create a mess this big," runs a Brazilian joke that plays on Argentines' enduring sense of being special.

One hundred years of ineptitude

The country's dramatic decline has long puzzled economists. Simon Kuznets, a Nobel laureate, is supposed to have remarked: ”There are four kinds of countries in the world: developed countries, undeveloped countries, Japan and Argentina." Other countries have since managed to copy Japan's rapid industrialisation; Argentina remains in a class of its own. There is no shortage of candidates for the moment when the country started to go wrong. There was the shock of the first world war and the Depression to an open trading economy; or the coup of 1930; or Argentina's neutrality in the second world war, which put it at odds with America, the new superpower. There was the rise of Juan Domingo Perón, the towering figure of 20th-century Argentina, who took power in 1946. Others reckon that things really went downhill between 1975 and 1990.

No one theory solves the puzzle. ”If a guy has been hit by 700,000 bullets it's hard to work out which one of them killed him," says Rafael di Tella, who has co-edited a forthcoming book on Argentina's decline. But three deep-lying explanations help to illuminate the country's diminishment. Firstly, Argentina may have been rich 100 years ago but it was not modern. That made adjustment hard when external shocks hit. The second theory stresses the role of trade policy. Third, when it needed to change, Argentina lacked the institutions to create successful policies.

Take each in turn. The first explanation is that Argentina was rich in 1914 because of commodities; its industrial base was only weakly developed. Filipe Campante and Edward Glaeser of Harvard University compared Buenos Aires before the first world war with Chicago, another great shipment hub for meat and grains. They found that whereas literacy rates stood at 95% in Chicago in 1895, less than three-quarters of porteños, as residents of Buenos Aires are known, knew how to read and write.
The landowners who made Argentina rich were not so bothered about educating it: cheap labour was what counted. That attitude prevailed into the 1940s, when Argentina had among the highest rates of primary-school enrolment in the world and among the lowest rates of secondary-school attendance. Primary school was important to create a sense of citizenship, says Axel Rivas of CIPPEC, a think-tank. But only the elite needed to be well educated.

Without a good education system, Argentina struggled to create competitive industries. It had benefited from technology in its Belle Époque period. Railways transformed the economics of agriculture and refrigerated shipping made it possible to export meat on an unprecedented scale: between 1900 and 1916 Argentine exports of frozen beef rose from 26,000 tonnes to 411,000 tonnes a year. But Argentina mainly consumed technology from abroad rather than inventing its own.

Technological innovation needs not only educated people but access to money. Argentina's golden age was largely foreign-funded. Half of the country's capital stock was in foreign hands in 1913, further exposing it to external shocks. Low levels of domestic savings can in part be explained by demography: large numbers of immigrants with dependent children spent money rather than saving it.

Traders of the lost past

Argentina had become rich by making a triple bet on agriculture, open markets and Britain, then the world's pre-eminent power and its biggest trading partner. If that bet turned sour, it would require a severe adjustment. External shocks duly materialised, which leads to the second theory for Argentine decline: trade policy.

The first world war delivered the initial blow to trade. It also put a lasting dent in levels of investment. In a foreshadowing of the 2007-08 global financial crisis, foreign capital headed for home and local banks struggled to fill the gap. Next came the Depression, which crushed the open trading system on which Argentina depended; Argentina raised import tariffs from an average of 16.7% in 1930 to 28.7% in 1933. Reliance on Britain, another country in decline, backfired as Argentina's favoured export market signed preferential deals with Commonwealth countries.

Indeed, one way to think about Argentina in the 20th century is as being out of sync with the rest of the world. It was the model for export-led growth when the open trading system collapsed. After the second world war, when the rich world began its slow return to free trade with the negotiation of the General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade in 1947, Argentina had become a more closed economy—and it kept moving in that direction under Perón. An institution to control foreign trade was created in 1946; an existing policy of import substitution deepened; the share of trade as a percentage of GDP continued to fall.

These autarkic policies had deep roots. Many saw the interests of Argentina's food exporters as being at odds with those of workers. High food prices meant big profits for farmers but empty stomachs for ordinary Argentines. Open borders increased farmers' takings but sharpened competition from abroad for domestic industry. The pampas were divided up less equally than farmland in places like the United States or Australia: the incomes of the richest 1% of Argentines were strongly correlated with the exports of crops and livestock. As the urban, working-class population swelled, so did the constituency susceptible to Perón's promise to support industry and strengthen workers' rights.

There have been periods of liberalisation since, but interventionism retains its allure. ”One-third of the country—the commodities industry, engineers and regional industries like wine and tourism—is ready to compete," says Sergio Berensztein, a political analyst. ”Two-thirds are not."

The divide between farmers and workers endures. Heavy export taxes on crops allow the state to top up its dwindling foreign-exchange reserves; limits on wheat exports create surpluses that drive down local prices. But they also dissuade farmers from planting more land, enabling other countries to steal market share. The perverse effects of intervention have been amply demonstrated in the Kirchner era: according to the US Department of Agriculture, Argentina was the world's fourth-largest exporter of wheat in 2006. By 2013 it had dropped to tenth place. ”The Argentine model of 100 years ago—producing as much as you can—is the one others now follow," laments Luis Miguel Etchevehere, the president of the Rural Society of Argentina, a farmers' lobby.

Distribution centre

Some commodity-rich economies have resolved these tensions. Australia, for example, shared many of the traits of early 20th-century Argentina: lots of commodities, a history of immigration and remoteness from big industrial centres. Yet it managed to develop a broader-based economy than Argentina and grew faster. Between 1929 and 1975 Australian income per person increased at an average annual rate of 0.96%, compared with 0.67% in Argentina.

Australia had some big advantages: the price of minerals does not affect domestic consumers in the same way as the price of food, for instance. But it also had the institutions to balance competing interests: a democracy in which the working class was represented; an apprenticeship system; an independent Tariff Board to advise the government on trade. Argentina had not evolved this political apparatus, despite an early move to universal male suffrage in 1912. The third theory for Argentine decline points to the lack of institutions to develop long-term state policies—what Argentines call política de Estado.

The constant interruptions to democracy are not the only manifestation of this institutional weakness. The Supreme Court has been overhauled several times since Perón first changed its membership in 1946. Presidents have a habit of tinkering with the constitution to allow them to serve more terms: Ms Fernández was heading this way before poor mid-term election results last year weakened her position.

Property rights are insecure: ask Repsol, the Spanish firm whose stake in YPF, an Argentine oil company, was nationalised in 2012. Statistics cannot be trusted: Argentina was due this week to unveil new inflation data in a bid to avoid censure from the IMF for its wildly undercooked previous estimates. Budgets can be changed at will by the executive. Roberto Lavagna, a former economy minister, would like to see a requirement for parliamentary approval of budget amendments.

The next century

First, Argentina has to get out of its mess. Keen to husband its stock of foreign reserves and to close the gap between the official and unofficial exchange rates, the central bank allowed the peso to slide last month. To prevent the depreciation from fuelling inflation expectations, it has raised interest rates. But further tightening will be needed. Rates remain negative in real terms; upcoming wage negotiations will be a test of how serious the government is about controlling spending.

Ms Fernández will probably struggle on until the 2015 presidential election, which optimists see as a turning-point. Economic wobbles before the election may discredit Peronism's claim to be the party of strong government. But Peronism is a remarkably plastic political concept, capable of producing both the neoliberal policies overseen by Carlos Menem in the 1990s and the redistributive policies of the Kirchners. The idea of a party that pays the price of bad policies does not seem to apply.

Short-termism is embedded in the system. Money is concentrated in the centre, and the path to power goes via subsidies and splurging: the Kirchners are only the latest culprits, turning a fiscal surplus of 2% of GDP in 2005 into an estimated 2% deficit last year. ”We have spent 50 years thinking about maintaining government spending, not about investing to grow," says Fernando de la Rúa, a former president who resigned during the 2001 crisis.

This short-termism distinguishes Argentina from other Latin American countries that have suffered institutional breakdowns. Chile's military dictatorship was a catastrophic fracture with democracy but it introduced long-lasting reforms. Mexico's Institutional Revolutionary Party governed steadily for most of the 20th century. ”In Argentina institution-building has taken the form of very quick and clientilist redistribution," says Daron Acemoglu of the Massachusetts Institute of Technology.

It will take an unusual politician to change Argentina's institutions, especially if another commodities windfall eases the pressure to reform. The country's Vaca Muerta (”Dead Cow") shale-oil and gasfield is estimated to be the world's third-largest. If Argentina can attract foreign capital, the money could start flowing within a decade. ”Vaca Muerta gives us huge capacity to recover and huge opportunity to make mistakes," says Mr Lavagna.

Argentines themselves must also change. The Kirchners' redistributive policies have helped the poor, but goodies such as energy subsidies have been doled out to people who do not really need them. Persuading the population to embrace the concept of necessary pain will be difficult. That is partly because the experience of the 1990s discredited liberal reforms in the eyes of many Argentines. But it is also because reform requires them to confront their own unprecedented decline. No other country came so close to joining the rich world, only to slip back. Understanding why is the first step to a better future.

The article is three years old at this point, but I think there's some important lessons for today. Stay in school, save more money, don't let your institutions deteriorate, and we all lose when we close ourselves off to the world.
 

Elchele

Member
That is pure propaganda. The country got in debt thanks to right wing regimes supported by USA, after that there was a neo liberal government in the 90s that completely destroyed the economy of the country and caused the 2001 economic collapse.

Kirchner's government, with some flaws, was a huge success in restoring economic and political stability to the country with their protectionist measures.
 

Mr.Mike

Member
That is pure propaganda. The country got in debt thanks to right wing regimes supported by USA, after that there was a neo liberal government in the 90s that completely destroyed the economy of the country and caused the 2001 economic collapse.

Kirchner's government, with some flaws, was a huge success in restoring economic and political stability to the country with their protectionist measures.

The article covers a bit more than the last 30 years and presents a few theories as to what happened in Argentina, some not even seemingly incompatible with your political biases. The Economist, while openly biased, is quite reputable.
 

Alebrije

Gold Member
Mexico is the same , 100 years of nothing and the last 20 years thanks to neoliberal policies helped to have now 55 million of poor people , rich more richer , middle class struggling.
 
That is pure propaganda. The country got in debt thanks to right wing regimes supported by USA, after that there was a neo liberal government in the 90s that completely destroyed the economy of the country and caused the 2001 economic collapse.

Kirchner's government, with some flaws, was a huge success in restoring economic and political stability to the country with their protectionist measures.

Maybe the first few years, after that it was all downhill and we were going the way of Venezuela.
 

hawk2025

Member
That is pure propaganda. The country got in debt thanks to right wing regimes supported by USA, after that there was a neo liberal government in the 90s that completely destroyed the economy of the country and caused the 2001 economic collapse.

Kirchner's government, with some flaws, was a huge success in restoring economic and political stability to the country with their protectionist measures.


What complete fucking nonsense.

The Kirchners ravaged the country with utterly broken and disastrous policy. They manipulated price indices, for fuck's sake.
 

TheMan

Member
I always thought Argentina was one of the economic stars of SA, guess I was wrong. The women are supposed to be beautiful though, right?
 

Ac30

Member
I find it irritating when people trash reputable outlets that don't agree with their worldview. There's debate over many economic issues. Not every country is Venezuela or the U.S.

I mean shit, the Economist prints nothing other than anti-Trump articles.

And they still have the best cover;

ba0f67c4e2d93979f703778f36e75a6e.jpg


At this point I've heard the economist called a Marxist mag and neoliberal trash.
 

plidex

Member
What's the point of posting a 3 year old article? From the first sentence I knew it was old, and I'm not even from Argentina.

A huge amount of things have happened in these 3 years.

That is pure propaganda. The country got in debt thanks to right wing regimes supported by USA, after that there was a neo liberal government in the 90s that completely destroyed the economy of the country and caused the 2001 economic collapse.

Kirchner's government, with some flaws, was a huge success in restoring economic and political stability to the country with their protectionist measures.

And then Cristina and her friends stole billions of dollars from the government.

EDIT: Cristina: "Argentina has less poverty than Germany". lmao
 

Mr.Mike

Member
What's the point of posting a 3 year old article? From the first sentence I knew it was old, and I'm not even from Argentina.

A huge amount of things have happened in these 3 years.

It's not exactly an article about a current event. And I feel it's quite relevant in the face of rising populist sentiment looking for simple solutions to hard problems.

At this point you would hope people could look around the world and realize that just legislating that prices be at such and such level and that such and such jobs be done domestically doesn't make it so.
 
I recently enjoyed the Planet Money podcast (short, ~20 minutes) called The Blackberry at the End of the World, about Christina Kerchner's anti-globalist, isolationist manufacturing push that spent billions on a Blackberry manufacturing plant in one of the most isolated parts of the planet, that produced over-priced two-year-old phones for two years before ultimately closing down.

I've long found it fascinating how left-wing and right-wing populists, in this case the Kirchners (or Bernie Sanders) and Donald Trump, can find harmony on such a ridiculously stupid idea as economic isolationism / protectionism.
 

clemenx

Banned
Jesus christ no.

Look in the Chavez and Venezuela mirror.

That's all and the only thing Latam countries need to do and run as fast as possible in the opposite direction

I always thought Argentina was one of the economic stars of SA, guess I was wrong. The women are supposed to be beautiful though, right?

You're not exactly wrong, but the thing is that no Latin America economy is noteworthy at all. Only Brazil and Mexico but only due to their sheer size.
 

Sblargh

Banned
Latin America's ideal governments are so marked by strongmen and their promisses of "50 years in 5 thanks to our holy meddling of the economy".
Both left and right put their own spin on it (for the left it is being "anti-imperalist", for the right it is "protecting the national industry"), but jesus christ this continent hates the idea of a country's economy being developed by itself instead of Guided By The Hand Of The Great Leader Who Knows Better And Will Take Care Of You.

Goddamn left-wing governments here are literally based on giving tax payer's money to already-billionaires and to oppose that is being "neoliberal". It's a disgrace.

Look in the Chavez and Venezuela mirror.

That's all and the only thing Latam countries need to do and run as fast as possible in the opposite direction



You're not exactly wrong, but the thing is that no Latin America economy is noteworthy at all. Only Brazil and Mexico but only due to their sheer size.

The problem with LA is that the opposite of left-wing "let's give money to billionaires because socialism" is right-wing "let's give money to billionaires because national industry".

Anyone proposing to actually running torwards free market is decried as anti-patriot by the right and subservient to imperialism by the left.
 
I recently enjoyed the Planet Money podcast (short, ~20 minutes) called The Blackberry at the End of the World, about Christina Kerchner's anti-globalist, isolationist manufacturing push that spent billions on a Blackberry manufacturing plant in one of the most isolated parts of the planet, that produced over-priced two-year-old phones for two years before ultimately closing down.

I've long found it fascinating how left-wing and right-wing populists, in this case the Kirchners (or Bernie Sanders) and Donald Trump, can find harmony on such a ridiculously stupid idea as economic isolationism / protectionism.
Which beggers belief how they still consider it viable given how every test case we have of it in modernity is a proven failure.
 
I recently enjoyed the Planet Money podcast (short, ~20 minutes) called The Blackberry at the End of the World, about Christina Kerchner's anti-globalist, isolationist manufacturing push that spent billions on a Blackberry manufacturing plant in one of the most isolated parts of the planet, that produced over-priced two-year-old phones for two years before ultimately closing down.

I've long found it fascinating how left-wing and right-wing populists, in this case the Kirchners (or Bernie Sanders) and Donald Trump, can find harmony on such a ridiculously stupid idea as economic isolationism / protectionism.

Those plants still exist, they just assemble parts from China and result in the most expensive phones in the world. It's quite ridiculous.
 

clemenx

Banned
Latin America's ideal governments are so marked by strongmen and their promisses of "50 years in 5 thanks to our holy meddling of the economy".
Both left and right put their own spin on it (for the left it is being "anti-imperalist", for the right it is "protecting the national industry"), but jesus christ this continent hates the idea of a country's economy being developed by itself instead of Guided By The Hand Of The Great Leader Who Knows Better And Will Take Care Of You.

Goddamn left-wing governments here are literally based on giving tax payer's money to already-billionaires and to oppose that is being "neoliberal". It's a disgrace.



The problem with LA is that the opposite of left-wing "let's give money to billionaires because socialism" is right-wing "let's give money to billionaires because national industry".

Anyone proposing to actually running torwards free market is decried as anti-patriot by the right and subservient to imperialism by the left.

This is all spot on.

Fuck Caudillismo with everything that can be fucked.

PPK in Peru and Macri in Argentina wins are borderline miracles that they even won. I hope they don't disappoint.
 

Sblargh

Banned
BTW, it's that's obviously part 2 of Trump's plan.

It starts with "we will put a tariff against imports" and the idiots go "yaay, he is protecting our econmy"

Part 2 is "we have to defend our economy further by helping our brave patriotic industrialists, so now the money from welfare will be diverted completely to my personal friends".
 

MANUELF

Banned
Mexico is the same , 100 years of nothing and the last 20 years thanks to neoliberal policies helped to have now 55 million of poor people , rich more richer , middle class struggling.

Is actually 40 years of nothing for us, we had an era of huge economic growth from the 40s to the 70s known as the mexican miracle
 

clemenx

Banned
BTW, it's that's obviously part 2 of Trump's plan.

It starts with "we will put a tariff against imports" and the idiots go "yaay, he is protecting our econmy"

Part 2 is "we have to defend our economy further by helping our brave patriotic industrialists, so now the money from welfare will be diverted completely to my personal friends".

Yup. Here's a good article on it. Trump so far is textbook latin american populism.

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_...nald_trump_is_a_latin_american_strongman.html
 

Boney

Banned
Kirschner followed the traditional Latin American populism that is ripe with corruption and money funneling, while also not even stacking to the heels of Perón. But at the same time they stayed steady with the support of public goods through subsidies.

Macri was just put there by bankers to pay the foreign debt and has started those loved austerity measures that have worked great in the past.

Argentina went through heavy industrialization and nationalization of the economy, but the tumultuous political reality of Latin America and our famous siestas were a stark opposite to Asia's work ethic and the value put in social order.

Chile and Argentina have been night and day, but most international organizations put them neck to neck in quality of life standards. Chile has one the largest economic disparity in the world with an especially obscene 1%.
 
BTW, it's that's obviously part 2 of Trump's plan.

It starts with "we will put a tariff against imports" and the idiots go "yaay, he is protecting our econmy"

Part 2 is "we have to defend our economy further by helping our brave patriotic industrialists, so now the money from welfare will be diverted completely to my personal friends".

NPR ran a good segment on Kirchner's economics, and the very interesting and frankly ridiculous changes many companies had to undergo to continue to operate under the protectionist rules she put in place and then where she chose to focus investments in. It truly is like looking in a mirror.
 

theaface

Member
Internationally, too, Argentina has lost its way. It has shut itself out of global capital markets, although negotiations are under way to restructure its debts with the Paris Club of international creditors. Brazil, hardly a free-trade paragon, is pressing Argentina to open its borders; once it would have been the other way round. “Only people this sophisticated could create a mess this big,” runs a Brazilian joke that plays on Argentines’ enduring sense of being special.

You could swap Argentina for UK and much of this would read like a cautionary tale of current affairs.
 

Mr.Mike

Member
Kirschner followed the traditional Latin American populism that is ripe with corruption and money funneling, while also not even stacking to the heels of Perón. But at the same time they stayed steady with the support of public goods through subsidies.

Macri was just put there by bankers to pay the foreign debt and has started those loved austerity measures that have worked great in the past.

Argentina went through heavy industrialization and nationalization of the economy, but the tumultuous political reality of Latin America and our famous siestas were a stark opposite to Asia's work ethic and the value put in social order.

Chile and Argentina have been night and day, but most international organizations put them neck to neck in quality of life standards. Chile has one the largest economic disparity in the world with an especially obscene 1%.

I do feel there is value in looking at where things are headed, and not just where we might be at right now.

Nd5anpK.png
 

woodland

Member
The article covers a bit more than the last 30 years and presents a few theories as to what happened in Argentina, some not even seemingly incompatible with your political biases. The Economist, while openly biased, is quite reputable.

Oddly enough, the Economist just put out an article today about what happened to Zimbabwe and Mugabe. Agreed though that the Economist is really good - love their articles.
 
I lived there through the mad inflation of 1989-1990, where we went from two Australes equaling a dollar to TEN THOUSAND equaling a dollar. They were just adding zeroes to the bills at that point, and eventually scrapped it for the peso. We got paid in dollars, and while it was a very modest amount, it ended up going a very long way.

I stayed there through the 90s, including the entire Menem era. His macro economic knowledge actually makes Trump seem brilliant, by contrast, so you can guess where he took the country. The dude literally pegged the peso to dollar exchange at 1:1, which nobody in the world believed. Prices skyrocketed and you started seeing the illicit exchanges this article references pop up. They're the only true exchange available in the country.
 
I recently enjoyed the Planet Money podcast (short, ~20 minutes) called The Blackberry at the End of the World, about Christina Kerchner's anti-globalist, isolationist manufacturing push that spent billions on a Blackberry manufacturing plant in one of the most isolated parts of the planet, that produced over-priced two-year-old phones for two years before ultimately closing down.

That was interesting and explains why Argentine customs stole my iPhone in 2010, there was simple no other way for them to get one. They're still assholes though.

It may be the short time for the podcast but they do gloss over a lot of things to produce their neat, Trump relevant narrative. It's not mentioned at all how Christina Kirchner was the wife and later widow of Nestor Kirchner and that it's not just fighting globalization but also trying to alter the power balance in Argentina itself away from Buenos Aires. It's not for votes, only 135.000 people live in Tiera del Fuego which is less then half a percent of the population. Tax incentives to get companies to move to Tiera del Fuego also were in place long before Christina Kirchner, I visited Ushuaia before in 2004 and was surprised to hear there was a Philips electronics factory nearby in Rio Grande.

The main thing I noticed between 2004 and 2010 most of the old cars had vanished from the streets. Before it was mostly Renault 11, Peugeot 504 and Ford Falcons on the road but I guess high fuel prices made them too expensive to run.
 

Maledict

Member
I remember reading this article when it first came out. One of the things I do find surprising is how Argentina used to be Britains closest ally in South America, and relied on Britain and the Empire for trading and wealth. Fascinating how things have turned out in the long run, and quite depressing that a war fought just to boost populism back home has soured things so much.
 

Red Devil

Member
As a Venezuelan the 1st post is bizarro world lmao.

You guys are so lucky to have Macri (so far)

c4jt321.png


Chile and Argentina have been night and day, but most international organizations put them neck to neck in quality of life standards. Chile has one the largest economic disparity in the world with an especially obscene 1%.

Yet on a dialy basis we're told we should aim to be Chile.
 

Tugatrix

Member
I must read this thing, my great grandfather was emigrant in Argentina in the 1930's for 5 years before came back, and his Brother and family stayed there (We lost contac my grandmother miss her cousins and I tried to find them once with no results), so for long i had a natural curiosity for the country. Always amazed me how the political elites did so many mistakes and screw up a country with endless possibilities
 

Eylos

Banned
That's the usual business with socialism - it starts great by spending money country doesn't have and then it's time to pay the debts.

That happened on Brazil by the dictatorship (right wing) in the 70s we watched the economic miracle and then in the 80s and 90s economical crisis.


Neo-liberal gaf is strong here.
 

Tugatrix

Member
That's the usual business with socialism - it starts great by spending money country doesn't have and then it's time to pay the debts.

no it's not, at least not as much as with neo-liberalism. Look the thing you point to socialism is not a problem of the socialism as an economic theory, it's a problem with the people that govern, and overspending is a problem with all economic theories when the wrong guy reach power.
 

Ahasverus

Member
As with much of Latin America, the bane of Argentina is political corruption. It's really sad, as we do have the best lands on earth. But politicians don't only lie, but steal. It's incredibly frustrating.
 
no it's not, at least not as much as with neo-liberalism. Look the thing you point to socialism is not a problem of the socialism as an economic theory, it's a problem with the people that govern, and overspending is a problem with all economic theories when the wrong guy reach power.

So since that happens every single time and it's always fault of something else and not actual ideology then maybe it's time to accept that it's purely theoretical concept that cannot work in real world.
 
Argentina always seems like a weird one for myself, most of the world supported them after WWII, then everyone backstabbed them pretty quick.
 

Tugatrix

Member
So since that happens every single time and it's always fault of something else and not actual ideology then maybe it's time to accept that it's purely theoretical concept that cannot work in real world.

Every single time? where are you getting that data? Europe has been for decades applying a thing called Social Democracy(yeah it's democratic socialism) with great results, the only problem was the neo-liberalism in America that crashed and burned the financial market (do i need to thank the right wing god Ronald Reagan? yes), leading to inept leaders deciding to save banks using public debt. When that happened the European right went after the stupidity called Austerity and tanked the economy, fortunately they seem to be willing to realize that maybe we need to go left economically again.
 

Nabbis

Member
Every single time? where are you getting that data? Europe has been for decades applying a thing called Social Democracy(yeah it's democratic socialism) with great results, the only problem was the neo-liberalism in America that crashed and burned the financial market (do i need to thank the right wing god Ronald Reagan? yes), leading to inept leaders deciding to save banks using public debt. When that happened the European right went after the stupidity called Austerity and tanked the economy, fortunately they seem to be willing to realize that maybe we need to go left economically again.

This is not true. Finland has major problems sustaining it's socialist policies. Granted, part of that is due to Euro and the aging population but a ongoing growing deficit is hardly what i would call great results.
 

Rei_Toei

Fclvat sbe Pnanqn, ru?
Interesting read, thanks for sharing. Did not know it was considered such an enigma in economic circles with regard to how it developed.

What's the situation today under Macri?
 

Tugatrix

Member
This is not true. Finland has major problems sustaining it's socialist policies. Granted, part of that is due to Euro and the aging population but a ongoing growing deficit is hardly what i would call great results.

you have neighbors who seem to be ajusting to the demographics and the Euro problems that plague us as whole. But can you pin that to socialist policies or to other factors, the other factors. Demographic problems are common problem in the developed world, also the problems with Euro affect in almost the same measure the less socialist country to the more socialist country, we need to sit at the table and reform the coin, but Merkel is unwilling to do so.

Socialism in this century has a challenge to solve, taxation of the money that runaway to fiscal paradises.
 
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