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[Mivey]

On that note from the Gibraltar Chronicle.

Doesn't matter. Anyone knows how much sway German car makers have over Spanish politics. Madrid is basically run by Volkswagen and Co.

 

[accel]

You know what is an interesting thought experiment. Thinking about the sort of concessions the individual EU countries might want to come to any sort of deal with the UK.

On that note from the Gibraltar Chronicle.

[...]

That's, indeed, interesting.

(Can't offer any comments because my knowledge regarding the issue is limited, but it's an interesting - and perhaps important - topic to explore.)

 

[iapetus]

I'm not sure why Freedom of movement is such a sticking issue.

Unless one is an uneducated nationalist scumbag, freedom of movement is nothing but a good thing.

I think you are sure why Freedom of movement is such a sticking issue.

 

[PdotMichael]

I work in the construction industry, more specifically I work shop fitting and the interior fit-outs of bars/ restaurants etc and my industry is hugely affected by economic downturns.
Remain would have made my short-term future a little more secure but freedom of labour is difficult for me to support.
Let me repeat that I do not begrudge migrant workers doing the best for their families and moving to Britain, but if six workers from the EU come to the UK temporarily and share a house sharing the rent / bills etc between them , How can i compete with the pay rates they can work for when I have the same financial commitments to meet alone?

So you are saying the main factor are the foreigners and not the fact that the investments in the construction industry are still below the point before the 2008 crisis.

 

[chadskin]

David Cameron made a late appeal to Germany's Angela Merkel for limits on free movement of people if the UK voted Remain, BBC Newsnight has learned.

The then-prime minister called the German leader days before the EU referendum, as opinion polls seemed to show voters moving to the Leave camp.

But he later abandoned the idea of getting her and other EU leaders to make a statement granting concessions.

No 10 decided it could be portrayed by Vote Leave as a sign of weakness.

Newsnight understands that at an EU summit after the EU referendum the German chancellor made clear to Mr Cameron that there could be no compromise for EU members on rules governing the free movement of people.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-36865791

 

[pigeon]

Ugh.

The EEA might be best for everyone, because it is a canned deal, no need to invent anything.

Invoking a safeguard once in EEA does not mean you don't intend to fulfill the EEA agreement - to the contrary, you are acting strictly according to it. Entering the EEA with an intent to invoke a safeguard similarly does not mean you are entering with an intent to not fulfill the EEA agreement - again, invoking a safeguard is completely within the agreement, you are fulfilling it. You are equating EEA with "EEA without the safeguards". You can't do that. There is no bad faith here.

No, I don't want to advocate that the UK tries to enter something that is similar to EEA but with an additional provision equivalent to the safeguard. If we could have negotiations in some parallel universe where they would take however many years of that universe's time and only a month or a year of our time, it would have been different - but then I'd have advocated for negotiating the entire exit at once (and yes, that would include limits on freedom of movement). But we have what we have - both the EU and the UK, and the safeguard clause works. If it doesn't work for the EU, they will say so.

Your argument here is essentially treating the EU as a genie in a lamp, subject to the strict rules of its own devising and powerless to overcome them.

This is not how real life works. Frankly, people are being far too tolerant of your plan. If the UK actually entered into a treaty and then immediately announced its intention to use the fine print to avoid doing its part of the treaty, there wouldn't be all this arbitration and article invoking. The other countries would just tear the treaty up and sanction the UK. If the UK isn't going to abide by a treaty, why would anybody behave for a moment as though it's valid? Saying "ah, but technically we are abiding by it, we're just using this clause to get out of what you clearly expected us to do" will get you laughed at. This isn't a logic puzzle, this is international diplomacy.

There is no global sovereign for you to appeal to in order to ensure that your weird reading of the treaty will be respected by everybody. There's just a bunch of individual sovereign bodies working as separate actors and trying to get along. They are at least as smart as you are. You need to start thinking in terms of what their actual goals and expectations are, because that's what they're doing.

 

[PdotMichael]

Your argument here is essentially treating the EU as a genie in a lamp, subject to the strict rules of its own devising and powerless to overcome them.

This is not how real life works. Frankly, people are being far too tolerant of your plan. If the UK actually entered into a treaty and then immediately announced its intention to use the fine print to avoid doing its part of the treaty, there wouldn't be all this arbitration and article invoking. The other countries would just tear the treaty up and sanction the UK. If the UK isn't going to abide by a treaty, why would anybody behave for a moment as though it's valid? Saying "ah, but technically we are abiding by it, we're just using this clause to get out of what you clearly expected us to do" will get you laughed at. This isn't a logic puzzle, this is international diplomacy.

There is no global sovereign for you to appeal to in order to ensure that your weird reading of the treaty will be respected by everybody. There's just a bunch of individual sovereign bodies working as separate actors and trying to get along. They are at least as smart as you are. You need to start thinking in terms of what their actual goals and expectations are, because that's what they're doing.

The other states wouldn't even need to boycott the UK but all safety measures must be greenlighted by the other EEA states, something that is not gonna happen.

There isn't really anything to discuss about that idea.

 

[Theonik]

Providing an international sovereign to arbitrate disputes between individual states and co-ordinate on common policy is actually part of the point of the EU. And the former is why the UK wanted the ECHR formed in the first place after the UCHR was thought inadequate due to not having legal force.

 

[Burai]

The other states wouldn't even need to boycott the UK but all safety measures must be greenlighted by the other EEA states, something that is not gonna happen.

There isn't really anything to discuss about that idea.

Yup. You can't just invoke article 112. You have to apply to the other member states to invoke it and they'd decide between them whether your case was valid. It's like putting all your stuff in storage and going to your insurance company, making a claim that you were burgled and expecting them to just pay out because there's a line in your policy that says they'll pay you if you make a claim.

I can't believe this discussion has been going on for the best part of a day now. The notion is pure and utter nonsense.

 

[-Plasma Reus-]

This freedom of movement issue is getting really embarrassing.
You're not getting market access if you don't want the people that make up the market. Pure and simple.

 

[Halph n Halph]

So you are saying the main factor are the foreigners and not the fact that the investments in the construction industry are still below the point before the 2008 crisis.

I am simply explaining my reasons for not wholly supporting free movement of labour despite voting to remain in the Eu. Lack of investment is of course another huge factor for which I blame successive governments.

 

[Izuna]

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-36865791

No way

 

[Jisgsaw]

Entering the EEA with an intent to invoke a safeguard similarly does not mean you are entering with an intent to not fulfill the EEA agreement - again, invoking a safeguard is completely within the agreement, you are fulfilling it. You are equating EEA with "EEA without the safeguards". You can't do that. There is no bad faith here.

I somehow managed to miss that point yesterday...

Where your argument fails is that art. 112 is not explicitly about limiting freedom of movement. Hence, no one should expect the UK to use it that way.
There's the point where the difference between negotiating in good and bad faith comes in: if you negotiate in good faith, you notify the other parties that'll use it that way. As I already described. But then the EEA won't accept it.

Not notifying the other parties is negotiating in bad faith, because you are using an article that was worded relatively broadly (for good reason) to specifically go against other articles you per definition agreed to by signing the treaty. As the article 112 is not specific, other parties can't know that this article, in your eyes, nullifies Art 31, as the wording doesn't show that. Good faith is to bring that up, bad faith is to say nothing and purposely mislead others into thinking you'll abide to Art.31 as per your signature.

 

[Halph n Halph]

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-36865791

I think that implementation of this plan would have given remain a comfortable victory.

 

[The Friendly Monster]

That's, indeed, interesting.

(Can't offer any comments because my knowledge regarding the issue is limited, but it's an interesting - and perhaps important - topic to explore.)

Don't let that stop you now.

I think that implementation of this plan would have given remain a comfortable victory.

Wouldn't the implementation of that plan have resulted in Merkel politely declining?

 

[Halph n Halph]

Don't let that stop you now.


Wouldn't the implementation of that plan have resulted in Merkel politely declining?

Sorry. I meant if it could have been agreed and the joint statement had been issued.
It doesn't really matter now. We are out and that's all there is to it.

 

[Ucchedavāda]

I think that implementation of this plan would have given remain a comfortable victory.

And what would you have offered in return for those concessions?

 

[Halph n Halph]

And what would you have offered in return for those concessions?

I have no idea what the government could have offered. I'm just saying if an agreement had been made and a statement issued, remain would have probably won the referendum.

 

[Camp Freddie]

And what would you have offered in return for those concessions?

Cameron would buy his wife a Golf to replace the 2nd hand Micra he bought her as a publicity stunt.

 

[iceatcs]

Kind confused cos UK's never have a freedom of movement in EU even before the Briexit.
I mean you can't go on the plane fly to one of Euro without a passport, same with ferry that goes to Holland or France.

I think UK only freedom of EU movement is between Ireland and Northern Ireland.

Was it about the Visa?

 

[Joni]

Kind confused cos UK's never have a freedom of movement in EU even before the Briexit.
I mean you can't go on the plane fly to one of Euro without a passport, same with ferry that goes to Holland or France.

I think UK only freedom of EU movement is between Ireland and Northern Ireland.

Was it about the Visa?

You are confusing freedom of movement with Schengen. You are free to move to the UK as a EU citizen, you just have to show your passport. Ireland is outside of the Schengen as well, mainly to allow ease of border crossing with Northern Ireland.

 

[KingSnake]

The fact that EU wouldn't compromise on anything related to the freedom of movement even under the threat of UK leaving EU, should tell you everything about what EU's position will be after the break up.

Anything else is fantasy.

 

[Ucchedavāda]

I have no idea what the government could have offered. I'm just saying if an agreement had been made and a statement issued, remain would have probably won the referendum.

Neither did your government, by the looks of it.

 

[twobear]

The 'no EU regulations' thing is kind of a weird argument for me. On top of the fact that if we wanted to trade with the EU we would need to abide by their regulations anyway, I haven't actually seen an argument that having lots of regulations is a bad thing. Yes, it's more work for the companies, but they're in place to protect the consumer. Let's say that Brexit's spurious claim that there are over 100 regulations for the manufacture of pillows is true--I haven't seen anyone actually go through those 100 regulations and point out which of them are unnecessary or superfluous. Just a hazy, 'how could pillows have 100 regulations?' appeal to absurdity.

 

[Stumpokapow]

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-36865791

the pig probably made a late appeal not to get roasted and fucked, but you can't always get what you want

that face when u whistle a little ditty after accidentally destroying europe, lol

 

[jelly]

The 'no EU regulations' thing is kind of a weird argument for me. On top of the fact that if we wanted to trade with the EU we would need to abide by their regulations anyway, I haven't actually seen an argument that having lots of regulations is a bad thing. Yes, it's more work for the companies, but they're in place to protect the consumer. Let's say that Brexit's spurious claim that there are over 100 regulations for the manufacture of pillows is true--I haven't seen anyone actually go through those 100 regulations and point out which of them are unnecessary or superfluous. Just a hazy, 'how could pillows have 100 regulations?' appeal to absurdity.

People just see regulations and think bad. While that is possibly the case sometimes they are only there for the benefit of consumers and making it easier and better to sell in the EU marketplace which helps businesses.

Britain is just going to have no say and may have even more regulations and oversight of their own through new bodies and lose staff to EU bodies which costs even more money. It's just stupid.

 

[PdotMichael]

the pig probably made a late appeal not to get roasted and fucked, but you can't always get what you want

that face when u whistle a little ditty after accidentally destroying europe, lol

The last weeks proved that the UK isn't big enough to destroy Europe. Quite the opposite is happening right now, in fact the EU would just get rid of the biggest anti-Europe power within the union.

 

[Orniletter]

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-36865791

Unbelievable.
It's utterly and completely pathetic how the UK, time and time again, tried to undermine our very principles, get exceptions, special bonuses and genuinely halted our pregress from the inside.

I'm still extremely sorry for the 48%, but just removing the UK's poisonous touch will do wonders for the rest of us.

 

[Commander Jameson]

The 'no EU regulations' thing is kind of a weird argument for me. On top of the fact that if we wanted to trade with the EU we would need to abide by their regulations anyway, I haven't actually seen an argument that having lots of regulations is a bad thing. Yes, it's more work for the companies, but they're in place to protect the consumer. Let's say that Brexit's spurious claim that there are over 100 regulations for the manufacture of pillows is true--I haven't seen anyone actually go through those 100 regulations and point out which of them are unnecessary or superfluous. Just a hazy, 'how could pillows have 100 regulations?' appeal to absurdity.

John Oliver did a bit on the pillow regs claim. The claim was for 109 "pillow regulations" when that included any reference to the word "pillow" regardless of it related to an actual pillow. Basically, lies.

 

[CharmingCharlie]

I think that implementation of this plan would have given remain a comfortable victory.

Not a chance in hell, if anything it would have been a boost to the leave campaign. We had been constantly told that what was on offer was all we were gonna get, then all of a sudden the EU reps would come out with "but wait there is more IF you vote to stay". I think the general reaction of the UK would've been "yeah right, pull the other one it has bells on it". No one would've believed that the EU would follow through with any last minute "vow" (hell most were not expecting the EU to honour the concessions Cameron got).

Secondly it could have easily been used by the Leave campaign as an example of the almighty power and strength of the UK position and we should continue pushing for more. Yeah the remain campaign didn't get much of anything right, but in this case it was wise to not go the "vow" route cos we would've just laughed our arse off at it, especially after what happened with the "vow" in Scotland.

 

[inoperativ]

SNP membership reaches 120K. To put it into perspective, that's more than 1/6 of Labour's TOTAL Scottish votes in the last General Election and a larger proportion of the Scottish population than the party memberships of all nationwide parties combined are of the UK population.

 

[Zafir]

SNP membership reaches 120K. To put it into perspective, that's more than 1/6 of Labour's TOTAL Scottish votes in the last General Election and a larger proportion of the Scottish population than the party memberships of all nationwide parties combined are of the UK population.

Not surprising when you consider it was the only party that seemed to have a plan, and knew what they were going to do if Leave won.

Meanwhile Labour is still in an absolute shambles.

 

[amanset]

You are confusing freedom of movement with Schengen. You are free to move to the UK as a EU citizen, you just have to show your passport. Ireland is outside of the Schengen as well, mainly to allow ease of border crossing with Northern Ireland.

And even more so, you are free to move to anywhere in the EU and stay there.

I know because I, as a Brit, did it.

 

[Bleepey]

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/691589/Britain-BOOMS-EU-vote-economy-economic-news-Brexit

Someone explain how come they are saying something totally different.

 

[AHA-Lambda]

SNP membership reaches 120K. To put it into perspective, that's more than 1/6 of Labour's TOTAL Scottish votes in the last General Election and a larger proportion of the Scottish population than the party memberships of all nationwide parties combined are of the UK population.

+1

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/691589/Britain-BOOMS-EU-vote-economy-economic-news-Brexit

Someone explain how come they are saying something totally different.

Because it's the bloody Daily Express >_>

 

[Deleted member 13876]

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/691589/Britain-BOOMS-EU-vote-economy-economic-news-Brexit

Someone explain how come they are saying something totally different.

One of the commenters covers part of it.

BrianRogers
the article speaks about increased selling of property to wealthy foreign investors. The low pound will see this continue through to the end of any downturn. So we "get our country back" only to find that most of the property and businesses in the UK have been taken over by foreign investors taking advantage of UKs closing down sale. These sales are not a sign of economic recovery they are a sign that Britain is being sold off at a heavily discounted rate due to our currency being around 10 - 15% lower in value now than on 22nd June.

It's also hilarious how foreigners buying up properties is suddenly a good thing for the people who are rejoicing leave won.

 

[D4Danger]

Not surprising when you consider it was the only party that seemed to have a plan, and knew what they were going to do if Leave won.

Meanwhile Labour is still in an absolute shambles.

Labour added 183,000 new members in 24 hours (with a £25 fee)

They have something like 800,000+ members now. More than double every other party combined.

say what you will about Corbyn and the current shambles but people are doing something about it.

 

[Guerrillas in the Mist]

The 'no EU regulations' thing is kind of a weird argument for me. On top of the fact that if we wanted to trade with the EU we would need to abide by their regulations anyway, I haven't actually seen an argument that having lots of regulations is a bad thing. Yes, it's more work for the companies, but they're in place to protect the consumer. Let's say that Brexit's spurious claim that there are over 100 regulations for the manufacture of pillows is true--I haven't seen anyone actually go through those 100 regulations and point out which of them are unnecessary or superfluous. Just a hazy, 'how could pillows have 100 regulations?' appeal to absurdity.

"Scrutinising our ridiculous claims? PROJECT FEARRRRR! You're obviously not a "real", hard-working, beef-eating and beer-drinking British person" etc.

 

[sohois]

Unbelievable.
It's utterly and completely pathetic how the UK, time and time again, tried to undermine our very principles, get exceptions, special bonuses and genuinely halted our pregress from the inside.

I'm still extremely sorry for the 48%, but just removing the UK's poisonous touch will do wonders for the rest of us.

Vast amounts of the EU in it's current form are unpopular across the continent. Exit votes would be a close run thing in many countries, or indeed massive victories for leave in some.

The EU probably lucked out by giving the UK so much power, one can imagine that the EU would already have collapsed if they had been able to push far more unpopular federalism. And I say this as someone who supports a fully federal European state.

 

[Zafir]

Labour added 183,000 new members in 24 hours (with a £25 fee)

They have something like 800,000+ members now. More than double every other party combined.

say what you will about Corbyn and the current shambles but people are doing something about it.

Well more the reason it has a problem is because there's just a massive rift in the party.

I'm not sure this leader election will solve it either. Corbyn stays in and the MPs are still irritated with him for varying reasons. Smith gets in and Corbyn's team and many members will be annoyed.

 

[PdotMichael]

Vast amounts of the EU in it's current form are unpopular across the continent. Exit votes would be a close run thing in many countries, or indeed massive victories for leave in some.

The EU probably lucked out by giving the UK so much power, one can imagine that the EU would already have collapsed if they had been able to push far more unpopular federalism. And I say this as someone who supports a fully federal European state.

It's nice to claim things.

 

[sohois]

It's nice to claim things.

Well Im on my phone at the moment and can't look it up, but after the referendum there were several Europe wide polls posted on GAF showing leave opinions in other countries with the likes of Denmark and Holland being solidly pro leave. Unless I'm misremembering?

 

[Irminsul]

Vast amounts of the EU in it's current form are unpopular across the continent. Exit votes would be a close run thing in many countries, or indeed massive victories for leave in some.

The EU probably lucked out by giving the UK so much power, one can imagine that the EU would already have collapsed if they had been able to push far more unpopular federalism. And I say this as someone who supports a fully federal European state.

Possible, but I'm a bit more optimistic here. If it weren't for the UK (well, not solely the UK, but they're the biggest player here), there wouldn't be as much of a clusterfuck, i.e. tight European integration in some areas but not in others. This isn't the only source of complains, of course -- politicians in all member countries are pretty good at diverging blame to the EU -- but I'm convinced a more even approach towards federalism would've helped.

 

[Kabouter]

Well Im on my phone at the moment and can't look it up, but after the referendum there were several Europe wide polls posted on GAF showing leave opinions in other countries with the likes of Denmark and Holland being solidly pro leave. Unless I'm misremembering?

Not sure about Denmark, but polls in NL swing around 50% for support of a referendum, most slightly below that. Support for leaving seems to be consistently below 50%. Who knows how that will change in the future though, I certainly wouldn't risk a referendum.

 

[KingSnake]

Well Im on my phone at the moment and can't look it up, but after the referendum there were several Europe wide polls posted on GAF showing leave opinions in other countries with the likes of Denmark and Holland being solidly pro leave. Unless I'm misremembering?

http://www.politico.eu/article/danish-eu-support-rises-post-brexit-opinion-poll/

A Voxmeter poll has 69 percent of those surveyed supporting Danish membership of the EU, up from 59.8 percent a week before the vote.

The same poll found that the number of people wanting a referendum similar to that held in the U.K. fell from 40.7 percent to 32 percent over the same time period.

I can't find a recent one from The Netherlands. But in most countries the support for EU has actually grown after seeing what the Brits have done to themselves.

 

[Halph n Halph]

One of the commenters covers part of it.



It's also hilarious how foreigners buying up properties is suddenly a good thing for the people who are rejoicing leave won.

Foreign investment in UK property is nothing new. However the fact that they are continuing to invest post leave seems to conclude they don't expect a dramatic slump in the value of said property in the future.
The Wells Fargo £300 million purchase is interesting, but I'm not really qualified to comment on its validation of either sides argument.

 

[sohois]

Not sure about Denmark, but polls in NL swing around 50% for support of a referendum, most slightly below that. Support for leaving seems to be consistently below 50%. Who knows how that will change in the future though, I certainly wouldn't risk a referendum.

http://www.politico.eu/article/danish-eu-support-rises-post-brexit-opinion-poll/

I can't find a recent one from The Netherlands. But in most countries the support for EU has actually grown after seeing what the Brits have done to themselves.

I must have been mistaken then. I have a distinct memory of a map of leaver countries and being surprised at the results, though perhaps it was done very soon after the result and opinions have swung back now that the scale of disaster has emerged.

 

[Deleted member 13876]

http://www.politico.eu/article/danish-eu-support-rises-post-brexit-opinion-poll/



I can't find a recent one from The Netherlands. But in most countries the support for EU has actually grown after seeing what the Brits have done to themselves.

There's also the Austrian right wing politician who backpedaled on earlier statements he made about leaving the EU, claiming he never made them.

 

[KingSnake]

There's also the Austrian right wing politician who backpedaled on earlier statements he made about leaving the EU, claiming he never made them.

Yeah, Hofer trying to not lose the repeated elections before even starting the campaign.

 

[twobear]

John Oliver did a bit on the pillow regs claim. The claim was for 109 "pillow regulations" when that included any reference to the word "pillow" regardless of it related to an actual pillow. Basically, lies.

Yes, that's why I said 'assuming that the claim is even true'. I've seen no breakdown of why these regulations exist and what they actually do. In fact, the same point can be said of people who dismiss the argument, I guess.