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The Xbox 2 will destroy gaming as we know it!

Here's the bottom line, though, and something Costikyan's petulant little bitch-fest fails to take into account:

The ratio of crap and/or generic games to good and/or innovative games not only hasn't changed in recent years, it's probably gotten better! Like plenty of other people, Greggy has a very selective and rose colored opinion of how video games and the industry used to be. And he's wrong. The "bottom line" was just as much of a concern to publishers in 1982 and 1992 as it was in 2002. If he actually had as good a grasp on the history of video games as he implies, he'd realize most of the games we look at as high points usually were struggles to get published because the higher ups didn't think they were a good idea at the time. Damn near every great and/or innovative game seems to have a story like that behind it, doesn't it? It's still the same way!

Seriously, go play through all 600+ NES games, or the 600+ Atari 2600 games, or through the Genesis and SNES libraries. There is a ton of generic, derivative crap in every generation. People almost always look back on their formative years of gaming with adoration. "The NES was so great! It had Super Mario and Zelda and Bomberman and River City Ransom and Excitebike and blah blah." It did have great stuff. But do you know how much utter garbage was on that console (or any!) as well? Some people do, but a lot of people don't seem to have a clue. Just thinking about the amount of generic, uninspiring side-scrolling platformers (the FPS of the late 80's) on the NES... ugh. I'm getting the chills.

Now, in this generation I've played great, innovative games like Ico, The Mark of Kri, Oddworld: Stranger's Wrath, Grand Theft Auto (love it or hate it, GTA3 was extremely new and innovative), Pikmin, Wario Ware, Katamari Damacy, Rez, Frequency, Jet Set/Grind Radio, etc. etc. I mean, should we figure this out on paper? "OMG, last generation was 9% more innovative than this one!" The point being, there are new and different/innovative games now surrounded by a lot of generic crud, just like there has been in every generation.

Something else to consider, and to expand on the point I made earlier, I honestly believe your average, middle of the road games today are a hell of a lot more polished and playable than your middle of the road games of any other generation. Again, take an extensive tour through the libraries of older consoles to really understand this point. Quality testing has never been higher. The previous 10 or so years of CD-based gaming had a LOT of glitches in it. Severely flawed and glitched games on the PS1, 3DO, Saturn, Sega CD... remember? Those are pretty much gone now. And while "the average is better than it ever was" isn't exactly the stuff dreams are made of, it is a good thing, certainly. You have a better chance now of picking up some unknown, underhyped title and getting some kicks out of it than you did 10 or 20 years ago, I think.

One last point. Compare video games "mass market" titles with that of movies. I recently played NFS: Underground because I found a cheap copy. I've had NO interest in this title whatsoever. Not into the whole Fast and the Furious, street ricers thing at all. In spite of that, I had fun with the game. Played for about 5 hours total, and while it became very repetitive after a while, like I said, I did have a pretty good time with it at first. Compare this to your average Hollywood mass market offering like Van Helsing or Scooby Doo 2 or Starsky & Hutch or etc. Those are pure drivel and things I would not or have not gotten any enjoyment out of! Our mass market video games are just lovely compared to that level of mindless, generic crap. Just something to keep in mind when all the sky is falling talk comes around again.

It's such a prevalent attitude Costyikan has - when there's something bugging you, instead of spending the time to take a thorough, even-handed look at it, just burn everything down around you with a loudmouthed rant instead. Same mentality of an 8-year old crying for a toy. "Everything is not exactly to my liking, so YOU must be the problem!"
 
Now, in this generation I've played great, innovative games like Ico, The Mark of Kri, Oddworld: Stranger's Wrath, Grand Theft Auto (love it or hate it, GTA3 was extremely new and innovative), Pikmin, Wario Ware, Katamari Damacy, Rez, Frequency, Jet Set/Grind Radio, etc. etc. I mean, should we figure this out on paper? "OMG, last generation was 9% more innovative than this one!" The point being, there are new and different/innovative games now surrounded by a lot of generic crud, just like there has been in every generation.

I could probably give you a list of RPG's that equal that size on the SNES. While the NES era had a shitload of crud, the SNES ERA was much better. But thats because there was still a lot of ground to cover at the time. I would argue that there is a greater ratio of crud now than the SNES era and the PSX era.

Lets say for shooters on the SNES(argualbly the worst part of the SNES era)

We had:
Raiden
Axelay
Pop'n'Twinbee
UN Squadren
R-Type
Darius Twin
Strike Gunner
Gradius


I cant find that many shooters this gen worth owning.


RPGS on the SNES and PSX was like the golden ERA, I wont even argue that.


The genres that got the biggest improvements are the sim sports games this gen and again this is something I wont bother arguing.




I guess for me that genres I like are very small this gen(RPG's) and nothing innovative either aside from PC games. And I think thats where a lot of gamers who think the same way as I do, other then the sim genres, and RTS genres, there has been little advancement.
 
I agree with Bebpo's take on it. I also believe that electronic distribution is the future for many, non top-tier publishers and developers. By the end of this coming gen, I see downloadable games as a more commonplace method of distributing games, thereby cutting the traditional publisher out of the picture...this will allow for more types of games, and possibly more innovation. However, I want to state that the consumer is to fault for the lack of 'innovative' games due to the desire to see more of what they already like.

Decent marketing is just too expensive for most. And that's one of the big reasons you don't see as much in the way of innovation because the innovative titles fail to sell because the public hasn't been made aware of them. But my main feeling on this is that games have never been massively innovative, in general. People are decrying these companies and systems not understanding that games have largely not been so innovative...not since the 8-/16-bit computer days...and part of that was that we had *just* been able to realize ideas that could not have been before.

Also, innovation/revolutionary ideas do not automatically equal more fun and enjoyable games and experiences.

I'm also agreeing w/ 99.9% of VALIS' post.
 
Kobun Heat said:
At GDC one night I was talking to one of the designers of a very popular big-budget game, I don't think I can tell you what it was called but it started with "M" and ended with "etal Gear Solid 3." We didn't talk too long but they did tell me pretty much exactly the point of this thread -- that the amount of pressure to make bigger and more expansive projects like their mystery game wasn't a good thing.

"I think that's what Nintendo's been talking about for a while," I offered.

"Nintendo is right," he said. His co-worker nodded in agreement.

Just saying. I mean, I loved the graphics on this guy's game, and I told him so. But still.

So what does this mean, Revolution will be super-cheap to develop for?

If it does in fact have technology comparable to it's competitors as everyone seems to think, why wouldn't it be just as expensive to make a game that looks on par with games on other platforms?
 
Monk said:
Lets say for shooters on the SNES(argualbly the worst part of the SNES era)

We had:
Raiden
Axelay
Pop'n'Twinbee
UN Squadren
R-Type
Darius Twin
Strike Gunner
Gradius

I cant find that many shooters this gen worth owning.

Gradius V, Ikaruga, Silpheed (I love it, anyway), R-Type Final, Bangai-O, then there's some highly regarded imports like Border Down and Trizeal... that's not too bad a list at all, and there's still probably 10 others I didn't name. And, hell, we may not like it but the genre has just gone out of vogue. What are you gonna do? Happens. Doesn't mean the whole industry has gone to shit (not that you are implying it).
 
Kobun Heat said:
Now that I can agree with. We're on a train speeding towards a brick wall, and we're all looking out the window going "Ooh, look how FAST we're going!"

Hm. That's what I fear.
 
I personally think that this is all bullshit. The next gen of consoles will come and their will be no problem, it will be exacly like any other generation.
 
The ratio of crap and/or generic games to good and/or innovative games not only hasn't changed in recent years, it's probably gotten better!

The ratio has nothing to do with it, especially since different people have different ideas of what's 'good' and what's 'crap'.
 
"I cant find that many shooters this gen worth owning"
Gradius V
Ikaruga
R-type final
Bangai-Oh
Do Don Pachi 2
Mars Matrix
Border Down
Psyvaria
Psyvaria 2
Zero Gunner 2

as mentioned, probably a few more in there that are worth picking up too :)
 
JackFrost2012 said:
... or so says Greg Costikyan.

I strongly recommend you read the article before posting in this thread, but the basic gist is that the Xbox 2 (and other future "HD" platforms), combined with a publisher-centric model for distribution, will effectively end innovation as we know it in the game industry.

Strong sentiments, but I can't say I disagree. This is not meant to imply it's specifically "Microsoft's fault" - Xbox 2 is just the latest symptom of an ever-increasing problem; the "disease" is gamers' ever-increasing demand for enhanced audiovisual splendor.

Also, I don't think that "gaming sucks nowadays" -- most of my all-time favorite games are from the 32-bit and later era. Even so, there's no denying that it's getting harder and harder to make an original title, and that as teams get larger and games get more expensive, publishers are going to focus more than ever on the bottom line. It's reaching the point where a flop or two is enough to take out even a mid-sized publisher. The PS2/Xbox era saw a lot of small publisher casualties, but things are just going to get worse from here on out. Look at the movie industry; look how many companies publish and distribute movies; this is the future of our industry.

So, what can we do about it?

In a later entry, he suggests some possible alternate distribution schemes. Some of those seem more viable than others, but none of them seem "yes, that's it!" So...

Is there a way to reverse the flow of the industry? To make games about gaming again, instead of the latest graphical flourishes and Two More Speakers? Or is the industry pretty much doomed down the path of expensive least resistance, with innovation becoming a thing of the past (or at least even less common than it is today)?

I dunno. So I figured I'd ask here. Maybe GAF can save gaming! You can do it, GAF!


The only comments I wanted to make in this comment pertain to production costs on next gen titles and consumer expectations. To truly be able to sell, studios will need bigger better models, better art/vfx work (i'd say the audio package can remain the same) to have appeal to the consumers and unless installed base really takes off (allure of titles, need for next gen). Early bandwagon hopping publishers might find themselves in a situation where all there dev. costs for the initial batch of titles don't recover themselves. The problem of keeping production costs down will impact on the quality of life of staff at EA + etc. I can only imagine what next gen production will be like if they're already currently overworked and underpaid. Fuck EA.

That said; I don't forsee a solution because that's the catch 22. No one is going to catch a movie these days with sub million dollars VFX effects because expectations are just here. I think the next to evolve up has its oppourtunity costs and well... if Nintendo sticks to their above average visuals work while retaining core gameplay like they did this gen.. I'd see them as the only easy winners. For what its worth, the company at the BIGGEST disadvantage is SONY, already, they're the trump master with the "strongest chip" so expectations for titles to truly shine on PS3 are already there. The problem with SONY can also be distilled from their other consumer markets - as much RND and innovation and marketing they put into their products, they're facing competition from cheaper brands offering comparable or more. Sony might just suffer from being TOO forward thinking.

In the other instance, DS/PS might prove to be the saving factor for all publishers involved (for revenue and income) because they wouldn't have to do as much with the machines (ports + simpler 2d titles) that will ensure cash flow that will maintain and help support the next gen cycle. Even with effeciencies with working with the newer machines over time... the increased time to create assets + art is not going to dramatically decrease.
 
If gamers keep buying the same shit like Halo and Grand Theft Auto every year, they will demand the sequels from Publishers and those sequels will of course, be bigger and better. They will keep costing more to develop but it doesn't matter because they are what sell.

I've wondered when the next crash would be, and I think this is it. It's the Creative Crash
 
tetsuoxb said:
Development costs are going to kill the midbudget game. They are going to kill midbudget developers. It is a shame, but if forcing creativity to low budget products and cutting the fat of midbudget games out of our diet is bad, then Id like to know what is good.
Thanks to PSP and DS it shouldn't be much of a problem for the next ~5 years.
 
The ratio of bad to good games may not have changed, and probably won't change much in the future. It's perfectly possible that things have improved in that regard... but either way I think it's irrelevant.

Less risks, means less freedom for developers. Like Greg said - all the big decisions are made by retail and the publishers. It is a lot like movies - maybe that doesn't bother you, but personally I think the movies are shit for the most part. That's a lot of the reason why I play games. The film-maker equivilent (developers) should have more say in decisions because they're the ones that understand gameplay. They're the only ones who could possibly know what we want before we want it. Freedom and vision will be compromised more next gen.

I think that's the problem people have. Nothing to do with rose tinted glasses or doomsday predictions. It's economics. To the guy who said it'll be the same next gen -- it might be from your point of view, but plenty of people working in the industry were voicing these kinds of opinions (and/or agreeing with them) at GDC and various events before. There must be some truth to it don't you think?
 
Bah. This is the same alarmist nostalgia-fueled rambling we heard at the start of this gen, and I'd be willing to bet we'll be hearing it for a while to come.

Yes, games are getting more expensive to develop. No, that doesn't mean that soon we're going to be living in some post-apocolyptic world where the shelves are lined with Maddens and GTA sequels (and by the way, there's nothing inherently wrong with either of those franchises -- both contain games that are quite good, actually). Big developers will continue to push big-budget games that bank on franchise and licenses, taking the odd risk every now and then...like this gen. Smaller developers will make less intricate games that perhaps have more INNOVASHUN to them...like this gen. And in the end, we'll get a lot of crap and some quality stuff too...LIKE EVERY GEN.

I like the analogies to the film industry, because that's exactly what it's like: smaller developer makes inexpensive, innovative game. Bigger developers take notice, flood market with higher-quality imitations, some good, some not. Smaller developer moves on, cycle repeats. Both the big fish and the little fish rely on each other, and so they co-exist in a perfect symbiotic relationship. Movie viewers and gamers don't have to "do" anything, especially not write angry blog posts about how things will be bad soon, you just wait and see! We'll keep buying the games we like, and the casuals will do the same, and things will continue.

Really, what evidence is there that next gen will be different from this one? Increased costs? I wonder what the reaction would be if you told a programmer from the 80's the average development cost of a game today.
 
IMHO next gen we will see the big publishers realise that there is a market for more inovative/quirky/niche titles.

We will see the EA's, Activisions and Ubisofts aqquire smaller studios with the sole purpose of producing leftfield titles - think along the lines of EA Big, but applied to leftfield, non-mainstream fare.

So in essence it will move towards the way Movie studios work - kind of like Focus Features/Universal & Fox Searchlight/20th Century Fox etc....
 
JackFrost2012 said:
This reminds me of a discussion I had a few months ago with a friend; we basically decided that all genres have a sort of built-in "price ceiling" for how much they're worth to us. Your personal mileage may vary, but we decided:

RPG: $50
Action/Fighting: $40
Racing: $30
Puzzle/Music/Shooter: $20

Those are just arbitrary numbers, and of course you may disagree. The point is: different kinds of games have different perceived values to gamers. It's not like the movie industry, where mainstream movies are all "about two hours long" and perhaps roughly similar in development costs. Games have stratified since the 16-bit era, and "a game is a game is a game" doesn't make any sense from a pricing standpoint. Witness how many people have decided to "wait for $20."

MS (and possibly Sony) want to raise the price of games to $60 in the next generation. That can work, but only if they lower prices too; introduce a $25 or $30 price-point not for budget titles, but for midbudget titles.

It's a fact of life that midbudget games simply cannot compete with high budget games - on even ground. So it's in the best interests of the industry and publisher to "even the playing field" for those who can't afford EA and Square's budgets - a "handicap" of sorts.

Gamers already recognize that not all games are worth the same amount of money - shouldn't publishers, too?
Yep, this is the best solution.

You'd think the publishers would have learned this after the past couple of years (holiday seasons especially), where almost every mid-level and lower game put up pathetic numbers and dropped price within a couple of months.

Once again, I go back to the movie industry. The game industry analysts always compare themselves to them, always find something to lock onto, but never look at the most important thing, and the thing that makes movies have the wide appeal they do... they are affordable. The price for a movie ticket or a DVD is sychronomous with the price people that are interested in a movie (many times, even if only slightly) are willing to pay to see it. Games can't say that, there are plenty of games that I'm interested in but the price is far too often way above percieved value to me... and I'm a gaming enthusiast, if I can't quantify the price, Joe Q. Public probably won't be able to. Millions upon millions of people own gaming systems, and yet most games are lucky to break 200,000 units sold. And it's not because of lack of interest, there are plenty of games I'm interested in (and know that plenty of others are), but the pricing isn't at the same level as interest. That's not a sign that pricing is where it needs to be.

If middle-tier games were $20-30, I'd end up buying 3 or 4 games for every 1 $50 one I buy now, and most of you would likely do the same. Plus the chance for casual impulse buys (ie buying something solely because it looks cool) goes up about 1000%.

I have the utmost confidence in saying that if a lower price tier was adopted and became an industry standard, the gaming industry of today would look like the DVD industry of 1998. They had a nice little market, but they were overpriced, people couldn't justify $30-40 for a movie. Prices have gone way down since, and the DVD market has, not coincidentally, grown MUCH bigger as prices become more and more affordable.
 
Shig said:
Yep, this is the best solution.

You'd think the publishers would have learned this after the past couple of years (holiday seasons especially), where almost every mid-level and lower game put up pathetic numbers and dropped price within a couple of months.

Once again, I go back to the movie industry. The game industry analysts always compare themselves to them, always find something to lock onto, but never look at the most important thing, and the thing that makes movies have the wide appeal they do... they are affordable. The price for a movie ticket or a DVD is sychronomous with the price people that are interested in a movie (many times, even if only slightly) are willing to pay to see it. Games can't say that, there are plenty of games that I'm interested in but the price is far too often way above percieved value to me... and I'm a gaming enthusiast, if I can't quantify the price, Joe Q. Public probably won't be able to. Millions upon millions of people own gaming systems, and yet most games are lucky to break 200,000 units sold. And it's not because of lack of interest, there are plenty of games I'm interested in (and know that plenty of others are), but the pricing isn't at the same level as interest. That's not a sign that pricing is where it needs to be.

If middle-tier games were $20-30, I'd end up buying 3 or 4 games for every 1 $50 one I buy now, and most of you would likely do the same. Plus the chance for casual impulse buys (ie buying something solely because it looks cool) goes up about 1000%.

I have the utmost confidence in saying that if a lower price tier was adopted and became an industry standard, the gaming industry of today would look like the DVD industry of 1998. They had a nice little market, but they were overpriced, people couldn't justify $30-40 for a movie. Prices have gone way down since, and the DVD market has, not coincidentally, grown MUCH bigger as prices become more and more affordable.

EXACTLY! I've felt the same way for such a long time. Game publishers would most certainly see a jump in game sales if the general price of admission was much lower. I remember the days of $60, $70, and even $80 SNES and N64 cartridges.. I don't want ever wanna go back.
 
I agree with him and while were at it lets tell hollywood and the consumer electronics industry as well.

Why the $#$& do I have a 50" Plasma TV and 53" Rear Projection TV. Give me back the 13" black and white I used to have when I was a kid. We need to get those god damn THX DTS theater seating movie theaters shut down. Down with IMAX format films.
 
JackFrost2012 said:
This reminds me of a discussion I had a few months ago with a friend; we basically decided that all genres have a sort of built-in "price ceiling" for how much they're worth to us. Your personal mileage may vary, but we decided:

RPG: $50
Action/Fighting: $40
Racing: $30
Puzzle/Music/Shooter: $20

Those are just arbitrary numbers, and of course you may disagree. The point is: different kinds of games have different perceived values to gamers. It's not like the movie industry, where mainstream movies are all "about two hours long" and perhaps roughly similar in development costs. Games have stratified since the 16-bit era, and "a game is a game is a game" doesn't make any sense from a pricing standpoint. Witness how many people have decided to "wait for $20."

MS (and possibly Sony) want to raise the price of games to $60 in the next generation. That can work, but only if they lower prices too; introduce a $25 or $30 price-point not for budget titles, but for midbudget titles.

It's a fact of life that midbudget games simply cannot compete with high budget games - on even ground. So it's in the best interests of the industry and publisher to "even the playing field" for those who can't afford EA and Square's budgets - a "handicap" of sorts.

Gamers already recognize that not all games are worth the same amount of money - shouldn't publishers, too?
Thats a very good idea. Its will help keep a good balance in price.

What exactly would be considered big budget and what would be considered mid budget?
 
I don't know about you guys but this has been the worst generation of videogames for me, and I bet things will get worse next generation.

Kobun Heat said:
Now that I can agree with. We're on a train speeding towards a brick wall, and we're all looking out the window going "Ooh, look how FAST we're going!"

Hehe, exactly.


PS. CrimsonSkies do me a favor and NOT reply to this thread plz.
 
Less risks, means less freedom for developers.

Like they had that much freedom in the SNES/Genny era, when mascot-based platformers and licensed crap STILL flooded the market. Things haven't changed at all except that different genres are more popular than shooters/platformers.
 
Pug said:
Kobun Heat big developers are saying that becasue, they are becoming increasinly bored firing out the same games repackaged with new visuals. Problem is we are all a part of this MGS4, HALO 3 anyone, how about Rez? Er what the hell is that? So the MS and Sony's of this world just keep piling the money into these studio's so they can keep firing out the same old games. Problem is WE the gamers seem to be very content with this.

Kinda off-topic but I wanted to comment on this.

I think gamers for the most part would be fine if these franchises died and the developers started something new and original...if they had finished their $%## stories. I mean it's really annoying as a gamer to keep having these Shenmue-ish games where they leave part of the tale for the next showing and then they complain about the gamers demanding sequels @_@.

If say MGS3 or Halo2 had finished up their respective tales, I would have no issues with the series being done for good. There are way too many games that have endings screaming "sequel" these days. I mean I really don't remember finishing many SNES or NES games and getting a "wait for the sequel! unsatisfying ending". I blame that on marketing needing a hook for the next game, but really developers need to have the balls to stand up to marketing and say "ok this is the last X game, after this we're moving on whether you like it or not. So we're going to have a kickass ending that wraps up this tale for good".

Maybe that's why I like rpgs, at least I know the story will have a conclusion without me having to wait several years for another game that may never come to existence (well Xenosaga sucks in this regard, but it sucks in any regard so...).
 
That rant was way more of a 'Publishers are greedy! WAAH!' spiel than a sober look at the future of the games industry. The amount of 'innovation' has stayed pretty constant over the generations. Should developers be better compensated and have more of a say? Sure, but screeching about future doom and gloom isn't exactly helpful, or accurate.
 
Che said:
I don't know about you guys but this has been the worst generation of videogames for me, and I bet things will get worse next generation.



Hehe, exactly.


PS. CrimsonSkies do me a favor and NOT reply to this thread plz.

a generation with RE4, MGS3, HALO, MP, KATAMARI, ICO, PDO... + more and its the worst? You really need to play more games, stop buying fucking crap or alternatively, pick up more than 1 console
 
Hell even the second tier games of the past few months have been top notch. Mercenaries, Phantom Dust etc.
 
I think it's somewhat comparable to the movie comparison, except that with consoles there's absolutely no way to bypass distribution through the hardware providers. But maybe it's more similar than I think since major studios pretty much own the theaters as well. It's more a problem of control of how and why distribution will take place with no opportunity at all for certain developers who don't want to answer to the production decisions of Microsoft, Sony or Nintendo (what a fantasy to believe it's much differerent there. If the DS is an indication, they don't want mind-blowing content, what their arguing for with the "heart of a gamer" is that they want the same model at a more affordable price for the smallest of 3 bohemoths.)

A lot of innovation, or independence rather because I think that's what the real issue is for a lot of these developer's, will have to remain in the niche of PC or other open source device development. Some games will find their way to more consumers through pure brilliance and their will always be a segment of their audience who will search them out. Again, it becomes the equivalent of an "indie" movie market. Because there is no market like that in console gaming. Some of those developers who strike it big will have to make a decision for independence...or going to work for Microsoft. We all have to make choices like that in our careers.

If they want to make the road less travelled better for themselves, I think their better off focusing on organizing a better support system for like-minded independent developers and pooling resources for limited marketing of their niche products. In other words, make the best of choosing to do what they choose on their own or enter the mainstream and accept the sacrifices. Thinking that rants are going to change the mindset of corporate entertainment complexes from here to Japan is probably a waste of time.
 
Kobold said:
It's kinda silly to state this. Everyone saw Spore right?

Make no mistake:
The only reason Spore even exists is because it's a Will Wright game. The man is on a very short list of designers who have earned their carte blanche through years, years, and years of proven game quality and sales. If Just Some Guy at EA thought of Spore, it'd probably be sitting on a shelf somewhere, never to see the light of day.
 
Musashi Wins! said:
I think it's somewhat comparable to the movie comparison, except that with consoles there's absolutely no way to bypass distribution through the hardware providers. But maybe it's more similar than I think since major studios pretty much own the theaters as well. It's more a problem of control of how and why distribution will take place with no opportunity at all for certain developers who don't want to answer to the production decisions of Microsoft, Sony or Nintendo (what a fantasy to believe it's much differerent there. If the DS is an indication, they don't want mind-blowing content, what their arguing for with the "heart of a gamer" is that they want the same model at a more affordable price for the smallest of 3 bohemoths.)

A lot of innovation, or independence rather because I think that's what the real issue is for a lot of these developer's, will have to remain in the niche of PC or other open source device development. Some games will find their way to more consumers through pure brilliance and their will always be a segment of their audience who will search them out. Again, it becomes the equivalent of an "indie" movie market. Because there is no market like that in console gaming. Some of those developers who strike it big will have to make a decision for independence...or going to work for Microsoft. We all have to make choices like that in our careers.

If they want to make the road less travelled better for themselves, I think their better off focusing on organizing a better support system for like-minded independent developers and pooling resources for limited marketing of their niche products. In other words, make the best of choosing to do what they choose on their own or enter the mainstream and accept the sacrifices. Thinking that rants are going to change the mindset of corporate entertainment complexes from here to Japan is probably a waste of time.

its not like there aren't alternatives to the distibution channels - chunsoft's homeland is a classic example. Or are you talking about licensing fees (this gen and next.. developers are laughing their way to the bank as MS+SONY will no doubt be dangling big fucking hairy carrots) Marketing is however a barrier that will continue to exist. Smaller firms will need the big publishers to help get the word out on these titles.
 
Odnetnin said:
a generation with RE4, MGS3, HALO, MP, KATAMARI, ICO, PDO... + more and its the worst? You really need to play more games, stop buying fucking crap or alternatively, pick up more than 1 console

I've got all consoles. I haven't played RE4 yet. MP is still my best game of this gen, MGS3 was great, Halo was just good (IMO) and Katamari was very good. ICO is just not my type of game. Anyway with 3-4 great games you can't say that a generation was good. This gen simply can't be compared with the good old 16 and 32 bit days. I can make entire lists of GREAT legendary games that existed then.
 
ChryZ said:
Thanks to PSP and DS it shouldn't be much of a problem for the next ~5 years.

So you're saying we're going to see more creative gaming options on the handhelds because the dev costs will be lower, making it a more attractive option to those mid to lower tier companies? Or even the first tier companies, will they see those systems as the place for the fun quirky games, while they use the PS3/Xbox2/Revolution platforms to make the guaranteed hits and fill the coffers to use for other development?

Anyways, one of the better threads to come down the pike in quite a while.
 
Sorry but objectively speaking games quality this gen >>> all other gens.
Anybody who disagrees is just nostalgic about their childhood IMHO.
 
Odnetnin said:
a generation with RE4, MGS3, HALO, MP, KATAMARI, ICO, PDO... + more and its the worst? You really need to play more games, stop buying fucking crap or alternatively, pick up more than 1 console

Just because it's the "worst" doesn't mean it's bad. I didn't have as much fun this gen as i did during the 32/64bit, 16bit and 8bit gens. This gen has been good, but I guess it's the worst one for me as well. Then again, maybe it has something to do with getting older and jaded. :P
 
Odnetnin said:
its not like there aren't alternatives to the distibution channels - chunsoft's homeland is a classic example.

By classic example, do you mean common occurence? I simply mean that there's an obvious difference between consumer freedom and choice on a PC and a console because Nintendo is still only going to greenlight what Nintendo wants. Because they own the platform. It's closed. Nothing wrong with that per say, it's just that it probably limits both the independence and creativity of many developers. Obviously we still get a lot of great games, though.

I'm just saying that if there are a bunch of developers who want to make games without getting Microsofts okay, etc. they either have to sell themselves until they have the power to call their own shots, or accept a lower tier of financial reward. And maybe help each other out a bit more. Just like the rest of life.
 
Azih said:
Or they can make PC games.

:lol is there any other option? I take that as a given if you want to be an independent developer and aren't some sort of superstar yet.

It would be cool if there was some sort of open source console. I mean, there's no way for that to happen I don't think. Not any practical use for it.
 
a couple of things people are just dead wrong on

1) there is definitely more crap to goodness this gen than the previous gen, and the previous gen to the gen previous to that, etc.
1.5) ok, let me correct that.. not more crap, but DEFINITELY less innovation. You guys aregue that there are so many great games this gen.. well no kidding. they are the same great games that we saw last gen... it doesn't take eintstein to see that. so instead of EA throwing 6 games to a wall and seeing what sticks, they take the 6 best reviewed/selling games from last gen and keep them coming this gen. But I shouldn't pick on EA like that. Nearly everyone is doing it.
2) Microsoft and EA are BOTH guilty of it, and many in this thread are guilty of supporting it. The graphics argument. Graphics are a MUCH larger priority for publishers (and developers to a degree) than gameplay.. Why? Because you can slap graphics on the back of a box. Because you can slap graphics on the front cover of a magazine. You CAN'T slap gameplay on any of those places. Gameplay only matters AFTER a person has already picked up a game (or reads a review).

To those who are saying the quality in this gen is better than the quality of any other gen.... one only has to look back to certain years. 1990. 1998. 1994. Games like Mario 64, Zelda:OOT, Super Mario Bros, Final Fantasy, Resident Evil, Street Fighter, Virtua Fighter, THPS, MGS... Seriously, what are the innovative games? Katamari and POSSIBLY Metroid Prime.. those are the only two I've seen in this thread so far. 5 years into a generation (counting DC) and that is what we got. not saying there haven't been other good or great games released, but the ones that were released were/are basically the same games we've been playing for years now just with better graphics...

The article is spot on... if you guys are REALLY happy with Madden 2056 and GTA: Boise then feel free to talk about how great this gen is... me... I'm hoping that someone (Will Wright?) pops up and reminds us why we play games.

unfortunately the sheep will always buy more of the same if it is good.. and that is where this article is going... of course you guys are saying how great we have it, and you are the problem. it is because you keep buying millions of copies of madden and GTA that EA and others don't innovate. Why spend money on something that could fail when they know you will pick up something tried and true that costs much less to create.

but everyone has their limits.. and hopefully by the 15th itteration of a game in a series sales will dwindle and you will start getting the hint. only after that will the game companies start getting the same message.
 
borghe said:
unfortunately the sheep will always buy more of the same if it is good..
Well, sure. Aren't things that are good...good?

This is the problem with the INNOVASHUN argument: proponents always assume that different is necessarily better. But if GTA 600 is fun, then what's the problem?

Having new ideas is always important, and there's always going to be new ideas. But that doesn't mean tried-and-tested ideas are automatically bad or even less good.

BTW, if you think that "Katamari and POSSIBLY Metroid Prime" are the only innovative games to come out of this gen, you really need to play more games.
 
Musashi Wins! said:
By classic example, do you mean common occurence? I simply mean that there's an obvious difference between consumer freedom and choice on a PC and a console because Nintendo is still only going to greenlight what Nintendo wants. Because they own the platform. It's closed. Nothing wrong with that per say, it's just that it probably limits both the independence and creativity of many developers. Obviously we still get a lot of great games, though.

I'm just saying that if there are a bunch of developers who want to make games without getting Microsofts okay, etc. they either have to sell themselves until they have the power to call their own shots, or accept a lower tier of financial reward. And maybe help each other out a bit more. Just like the rest of life.

by classic, I meant a classic example of alternative example of alternative distro. Nothing to do with common occurences. Chunsoft's example is classic because their homeland title is ONLY available online from the Chunsoft site.

Yeah, if they don't want to make console titles, they can make PC titles. I for one am glad that they do limit entry because otherwise the console market will be flooded by crap..... oh wait... :)
 
ICO, GTA III, Phantom Dust, Metroid Prime, Pikmin, KOTOR (and soon Jade Empire, Psychonauts) are all games of this generation. That's just off the top of my head. Plus this was the first generation that saw a LOT of PC styles cross pollinate into the console world. That's pretty significant in and of itself.
 
human5892 said:
Well, sure. Aren't things that are good...good?
no, not really. mostly they are just mediocre.

This is the problem with the INNOVASHUN argument: proponents always assume that different is necessarily better. But if GTA 600 is fun, then what's the problem?
Because GTA 600 in development likely means budgeting dollars that aren't going anywhere else.

Having new ideas is always important, and there's always going to be new ideas. But that doesn't mean tried-and-tested ideas are automatically bad or even less good.
Tried and tested ideas become bad when repeated ad nauseum.

BTW, if you think that "Katamari and POSSIBLY Metroid Prime" are the only innovative games to come out of this gen, you really need to play more games.
ahh yes.. the critical portion of the post with nothing to back them up. yes, I am unelightened. so enlighten me.
 
borghe said:
no, not really. mostly they are just mediocre.


Because GTA 600 in development likely means budgeting dollars that aren't going anywhere else.


Tried and tested ideas become bad when repeated ad nauseum.


ahh yes.. the critical portion of the post with nothing to back them up. yes, I am unelightened. so enlighten me.

well, I'd like to see what games you consider good.

Tried and tested ideas become bad when repeated ad nauseum.

that's bullshit.
 
What's innovative about Metroid Prime? (NOT A TROLL POST!) I mean, it's obviously beautiful graphically and quite polished. Just curious.
 
Bebpo said:
Kinda off-topic but I wanted to comment on this.

I think gamers for the most part would be fine if these franchises died and the developers started something new and original...if they had finished their $%## stories. I mean it's really annoying as a gamer to keep having these Shenmue-ish games where they leave part of the tale for the next showing and then they complain about the gamers demanding sequels @_@.

If say MGS3 or Halo2 had finished up their respective tales, I would have no issues with the series being done for good. There are way too many games that have endings screaming "sequel" these days. I mean I really don't remember finishing many SNES or NES games and getting a "wait for the sequel! unsatisfying ending". I blame that on marketing needing a hook for the next game, but really developers need to have the balls to stand up to marketing and say "ok this is the last X game, after this we're moving on whether you like it or not. So we're going to have a kickass ending that wraps up this tale for good".

Maybe that's why I like rpgs, at least I know the story will have a conclusion without me having to wait several years for another game that may never come to existence (well Xenosaga sucks in this regard, but it sucks in any regard so...).
Good point. I know I will be pissed off if Konami didn't announce or plan to make MGS4. No way you leave us hanging with the ending in MGS2. What about the Patriots? Who are they? Where is Snake now? Does Ocelot really know what is going on? Too many questions left unanswered.
 
Musashi Wins! said:
What's innovative about Metroid Prime? (NOT A TROLL POST!) I mean, it's obviously beautiful graphically and quite polished. Just curious.

i'd say the way it intergrated visors into gameplay (with misting/sunflare/reflection) in a FPS POV to allow gamers to immerse themselves into the role of samus
 
borghe said:
ahh yes.. the critical portion of the post with nothing to back them up. yes, I am unelightened. so enlighten me.


ICO, GTA III, Phantom Dust, Metroid Prime, Pikmin, KOTOR (and soon Jade Empire, Psychonauts) are all games of this generation. That's just off the top of my head. Plus this was the first generation that saw a LOT of PC styles cross pollinate into the console world. That's pretty significant in and of itself.
 
How did misting/sunflare/reflection affect gameplay? MP was not very innovative. It was actually a huge step back in the Metroid series.
 
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