Huw_Dawson
Member
Which is de facto siding with Assad + Russia, or ISIS.
Not a good look for Corbyn. Would he stop bombing Assad if he became PM?
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Theresa May Statement: June 8th General Election requested
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Which is de facto siding with Assad + Russia, or ISIS.
Not a good look for Corbyn. Would he stop bombing Assad if he became PM?
Audioboxer
Member
He still didn't get the vote, and as I said UK wide he was pretty hated. A small part of Scotland ever succeeding at getting a YES vote will be chipping away at some of the English minds. It's an incredibly hard battle for a country of a population of 5m versus a country with a population of 53m with the majority of the MSM/papers all telling the 5m how breaking up the Union would be "the end of the world for Scotland". We're bombarded with "You cannot survive without us".
If you can gain some support South of the Border it's smart tactical politics. The Conservatives and May/Brexit are doing that by default, though. Spurring some English on to say just leave this sinking ship Scotland. It helps though when someone like Sturgeon is out front over someone like Salmond. I'm not putting Salmond down for what he achieved, and on many issues, especially those involving foreign policy, I totally agree with him. I still stand by Sturgeon being a better long-term leader than Salmond. As I edited into my post above which you didn't catch maybe Labour do need their Alex Salmond to boost the party as a short-term fix.
Confidence and arrogance can make people hate you, even if you stand for many principled points. He did take the brunt of the abuse for threatening the Union at a time where we were in the EU. He might not have been receiving just as much flak now when the UK as a whole is despairing at the future we have. Again as above I still think Sturgeon is a better leader, all points considered.
edit: Shit, misread your quote and thought you were talking about Salmond. One thing Labour does need is someone with a bit more confidence/arrogance than Corbyn. Arguably not Salmond levels (or maybe so as a quick popularity fix), but better than 'old man sipping on tea who seems like he doesn't give a shit'.
The guy takes a day off during the week every time he appears on a Sunday talk show. Trying is the exact opposite of what he does, the guy should be sweating embryos trying to get into power but he's happy to just float around his Islington bubble.
Billy_Pilgrim
Member
So then why are you advocating me as a traitor to social democracy because I'm criticising someone who advocates democratic centralism?
QuicheFontaine
Member
I would prefer the HIGNFY replaced-by-a-tub-of-lard approach
Billy_Pilgrim
Member
Ludicrous lead in the polls
Siding with Assad and Russia isn't anywhere near as destructive as siding with his Saudi-backed jihadist opposition.
A hands-off approach to Syria is ideal. Western governments have no business toppling every strongman who dislikes America. Bombing Assad allows far worse actors to come to power in Syria, with far more dangerous implications for the Syrian people.
Democratic centralism and Social Democracy aren't mutually exclusive. You can have social democracy organised on the basis of democratic centralism.
Billy_Pilgrim
Member
So you're a marxist then. Makes sense.
In British social democracy there's no place for non-representative politics.
1. Massive lead over Labour in polls
2. Thin majority that makes legislating awkward
3. Lack of an electoral mandate for Brexit (the Conservatives won the last election pledging to stay in Europe)
The complete and utter incompetence of Jeremy Corbyn.
Huw_Dawson
Member
There are no good reasons not to call an election now other than public resentment over elections for political gain.
May, having no sense of the populous at all, does not especially care and simply counts on Labour attacking the Lib Dems whilst collapsing to guarantee herself a place in history.
JonathanEx
Member
I think the issue they hit was about election broadcasting rules - so even after the 'challenger' debate, it was followed up on the BBC by some spinroom bullshit with a Tory so that they had airtime.
That said, there's got to be other ways of doing it, and I agree a harsher line needs to be taken.
Labour lost a general election under Ed Milliband (the previous surprise 'left-wing' candidate), and in the hilarious leadership contest that followed Corbyn won, before being savaged in the press by his own party well before the EU ref.
None of the other leadership candidates had anything going for them either. Labour haven't had a candidate that anyone thought was a serious contender since David Milliband.
Baleoce
Member
Right, so this is their strongest opportunity to cement their plans for brexit and their term in general, and not have the public at odds over it. Makes sense.
Audioboxer
Member
Shots fired, maybe Corbyn has a chance on national TV?
Although he would probably still lose arguing with an "empty chair".
How do you deduct that from my post? Because of me knowing you were saying something that doesn't make sense? So you were trying to fool me to see if I knew my definitions lol
Democratic centralism has representatives. Mind you that I'm not here to give my opinion on it just to correct you on a clear misunderstanding of the meaning of the word.
Officially, the need for stability and the opposition to Brexit from the other parties. (Just ignore all the times she said a snap election would lead to instability)
Unofficially, the fact she sit at home watching TV for the next two months and get a thumping 100+ majority must appeal. She can finally ignore all those pesky moderate Tories and get a mass of hard Brexiteers in to support her plans.
JonnyDBrit
Member
I think they'll only specify their plans for Brexit in any precise detail if Labour make a move first in that regard. Like if Labour made an explicit promise to match European funding of local government and cultural projects - then silence by the Tories who've continually played the 'keeping our cards to our chest'... card, becomes a problem for them, and they may be pressured on whether or not they would do the same.
Royal_Phalanx
Member
Corbyn will argue about the benefits of vegetarianism and home jam making instead.
Billy_Pilgrim
Member
Because democratic centralism is leninism
Principate
Saint Titanfall
That's not an argument. Corbyn will most definitely lose this leadership contest as well. The issue is he doesn't want to win, and fundamentally agrees with the majority of Mays controversial policies helping her to pass the vast majority of them. Labour doesn't necessarily need to win elections but they need to provide opposition and hold the Tory party accountable by opposing their more dangerous crap and not get outmanoeuvred at every turn. This has no happened s far not even with more mitigating policies like the Lords amendment which would have been very useful at this point in time.
Shots fired, maybe Corbyn has a chance on national TV?
Although he would probably still lose arguing with an "empty chair".
Doesn't matter, whoever wins on a national debate May loses if she's seen as cowardly.
AHA-Lambda
Member
As much as I like Corbyn, I agree. It's not his socialism that makes it hard for him to win, it's his leadership and charisma. When he speaks it doesn't look like he has strong convictions even if in reality he does. My entire social circle is leftist and they would have you believe that charisma doesn't/shouldn't matter. They are wrong, it's important because without charisma you can't get people to even listen to you let alone agree with you. Even more so when the opponent is as strong as the tories are right now where they can win without doing or saying anything.
Audioboxer
Member
Oh I didn't realise you're also from Lanarkshire
South Lanarkshire represent! Although I moved to Ayrshire. "Tory stronghold" here over the years, putting in the effort to change that!
True, I'd support debates going ahead but are the BBC/CH4/MSM fuck going against May/the Conservatives. May says no debates, there will be no debates.
Ah well let's see
Guess we've come full circle. It's just a way of organizing things, nothing to do with social reforms in capitalism (through liberal democracy) which is what SD is.
CyclopsRock
Member
The last GE thread was one of my favourites on GAF. I enjoyed the banter and the photographs of snacks. Let's do that again. Will Ed Balls lose his seat? Will countless Scottish Labour politicians? It's such fun!
Corbyn isn't the root cause of Labour's problems, but then neither is Blair. One day it will seem silly to everyone that anybody expected a party which was based in, and drew its support from the Labour movement to survive the collapse and disintegration of that movement. The Labour party's problems have been present since the 1950s and they've just become more and more apparent decade to decade, as the shared pattern of working class culture disappeared. I'm thinking in terms of employment, education, housing but also more broadly than that. People like to blame Thatcher for the collapse of the Labour movement but it was clearly happening before, as Eric Hobsbawm points out in a 1978 lecture.
The reason Bennites like Corbyn are bizarre is that they don't seem to be remotely aware that this sort of change has happened. Even if had some charisma, or he didn't have an odd fascination for terrorists, he still would struggle to win an election because his politics are half a century out of date.
Billy_Pilgrim
Member
Except Britain is a representative democracy.
I mean May pretty much said that this snap elections is happening just so they can do whatever they want. That sort of confidence tells you how weak she thinks the oppositions are.
Audioboxer
Member
Televised debates without the leader/leading party of the country would look cowardly as fuck, on a global scene too.
0 chance the MSM/National TV will hold them.
MmmSkyscraper
Unconfirmed Member
Can you explain your objection more clearly? Because I don't see conflicting things.
Either I'm being especially thick today, or my local constituency isn't even on this list.
And given that it's been safely conservative since 1885 (with only 1 exception in 1923) I can see why they wouldn't bother to list us
Your local consituency, like mine, can't be saved. Conservatives win every time here. Last time UKIP were second.
JonnyDBrit
Member
Aside of the question of who sinks the cost, it would basically require that at least one of the news channels gets in on it, and it proves to be a ratings success, before any others might follow suit. The BBC certainly would be among the most reluctant to do anything unless Sky News, Channel 4, and ITV had all done TV debates in the prior two weeks.
Billy_Pilgrim
Member
Democratic centralism requires MPs to be mandated rather than representative. In Britain MPs are answerable to their constituents, not their party members, and free to make decisions of conscience. You cannot have democratic centralism and social democracy in a representative democracy.
cyberheater
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I've voted Labour for 30 years and live in Lanarkshire. I can't stand Corbin. The sooner he realises how deeply unpopular he is and fucks off the better.
Political ideals aren't invalid simply because they lose popularity. Rather than bemoaning folks like Corbyn for being old-fashioned, we should ask why class politics and left-wing advocacy has become taboo across the first world.
Billy_Pilgrim
Member
It's definitely a factor but not the main one, which is Corbyn.
Audioboxer
Member
I don't think any of them would dare throw egg on the Tories faces. Even although they're supposed to be "independent/neutral/journalistic", it's a bit of a "death sentence" making a mockery of May and Co.
It would have small ripples globally to see the UK Government and the leader of the country refusing to take part in televised debates. So they're getting out in front to say "TV debates are not happening", like they control the MSM.
The problem with empty chairing her is that I don't think it accomplishes anything. Realistically, the next leader of this country will either be Jeremy Corbyn or Theresa May. Putting him up ther with UKIP, the greens, the Lib Dems and the SNP just reduces him. It will lead to a ton of discussions on how Brexit is bad, and basically lock the Brexit majority of voters behind Theresa May.
autumnleaf
Member
I imagine that will be the reaction of a lot of people. Low voter turn-out, apathy, vote for the status quo.
Billy_Pilgrim
Member
It would work if she was in a position of weakness, like Dave was. But she isn't.
jufonuk
not tag worthy
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39631792
yes, that's right Tories call the election due to polls saying you are in a commanding lead, the same polls that predicted Brexit would never happen.
hopefully, this means they lose and someone else gets in.
yes, that's right Tories call the election due to polls saying you are in a commanding lead, the same polls that predicted Brexit would never happen.
hopefully, this means they lose and someone else gets in.
Do we do this like the Americans did with Trump, are all Conservative voters demonised here?
Thornton Reed
Member
A Tory friend of mine gave a reporter in Liverpool the fright of her life when she asked him what he thought of the snap election. He was probably the only Tory she spoke with all day.
Audioboxer
Member
It would be a principled move to say unlike the UK Government all who have shown up are willing to debate their policy/politics in front of the public and live on TV.
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