I've read lots of Plato's Republic and scanned it a bit tonight to verify. Wasn't able to find one complete quote, not that they're not there. Oddly enough some specific quotes (about the multicolored garment) are paraphrased but still very true to the original work. Then again that could be a translation difference I guess...
This BBC Newsnight segment on Plato's Republic about rise of Trump has me legit shook
- Thread starter RustyNails
- Start date
- Status
I've read lots of Plato's Republic and scanned it a bit tonight to verify. Wasn't able to find one complete quote, not that they're not there. Oddly enough some specific quotes (about the multicolored garment) are paraphrased but still very true to the original work. Then again that could be a translation difference I guess...
jellies_two
Member
There are way more parallels with hitler and the Nazis than people realize
But there are also so many differences
An example of a parallel is that Hitler rose to power on a 30 something percent majority. The 30% were slavish but the majority didn't vote for him. they just stood by as they all got slowly boiled.
An example of an difference is hitler was working from a people who were truly crushed by Versailles and they also lost all their savings due to hyper inflation. Hitler was also much smarter than trump is, and everyone he met wanted to appease him instead of dealing with him. He almost came undone several times before he made his fatal error of thinking the British would let him keep Poland and started playing games with Stalin.
What I am trying to say is that everyone should read up on how Hitler rose to power and recognize how fascists work, how propaganda works, so they can spot them and punch them in the face well bofore they are in a position to declare state emergencies and so on.
Hitler had to rush to convert his minority position into absolute rule very quickly, he was vulnerable as long as the army and the press and the reichstag still functioned independently. He did it all inside 18 months, and got lucky too, it was a huge gamble.
But there are also so many differences
An example of a parallel is that Hitler rose to power on a 30 something percent majority. The 30% were slavish but the majority didn't vote for him. they just stood by as they all got slowly boiled.
An example of an difference is hitler was working from a people who were truly crushed by Versailles and they also lost all their savings due to hyper inflation. Hitler was also much smarter than trump is, and everyone he met wanted to appease him instead of dealing with him. He almost came undone several times before he made his fatal error of thinking the British would let him keep Poland and started playing games with Stalin.
What I am trying to say is that everyone should read up on how Hitler rose to power and recognize how fascists work, how propaganda works, so they can spot them and punch them in the face well bofore they are in a position to declare state emergencies and so on.
Hitler had to rush to convert his minority position into absolute rule very quickly, he was vulnerable as long as the army and the press and the reichstag still functioned independently. He did it all inside 18 months, and got lucky too, it was a huge gamble.
Welp gotta say I've never actually seen anyone argue in favor of an oligarchy before.
How about we keep the democracy part except we kill and remove tyrants instead of doing a choreographed dance off a cliff or submitting to those whose very existence oppresses the society that gave them the structure and permission to acquire their wealth in the first place?
It's too early to tell. When all the scientists, artists, doctors, educators etc start leaving the country then you will know.
Sadly I've seen this happen before?
PeskyToaster
Member
The effect of the reparations has been a bit overstated according to some modern historians, while contemporaries often believed they were a heavy burden, the German government had pretty generous terms of repayment. If you want an example of a real ountive treaty, look no further than how the Germans treated Russia with Brest-Litovsk. It wasn't the actual terms of the treaty that fueled hatred of it but the idea of what it did, whether it did those things or not it was a symbol of German embarrassment to the Right. Wow almost like the pre post truth world and the post truth world are just the world and how it has always worked.
The biggest thing we have going for us all is that Trump is just too stupid and reckless to likely ever become an effective dictator/authoritarian. He's more likely to end the world by firing nukes after a tweet rampage than taking full control of the country.
The scary thing about Trump is that he shows America is extremely susceptible to this kind of fascist campaigning and it's likely the next guy to try won't be as dumb as Trump is.
The scary thing about Trump is that he shows America is extremely susceptible to this kind of fascist campaigning and it's likely the next guy to try won't be as dumb as Trump is.
Exactly. Dangerous precedents set all over.
This is trying way too hard. Ominous sounding speculation massively paraphrasing The Republic on the most superficial level in a perfect little three minute soundbite along with scary animation for rapid consumption. Hold up lemme go share this. Shit's Just as bad as conservative fear mongering. (Disclaimer: not a Trump fan)
Democracy as equality? Didn't the Greek system give more power to higher classes so that the poor could never outvote the rich?
I've seen several comparisons of Trump to Berlusconi, democracy survived that guy.
I've seen several comparisons of Trump to Berlusconi, democracy survived that guy.
HoodWinked
Member
i feel like if you preemptively apologize for something then its especially meaningless since you knew what you were doing is wrong but you did it anyways.
sorry but i'm not sorry.
sorry but i'm not sorry.
Used-ID
Member
I'm just afraid that the person after trump will have more centralized power than any previous president. I can already sense the Republican majorities in the house and Senate removing checks and balances (remember when they wanted to move the Congressional ethics panel to be staffed by themselves just a week or two ago?) and making it easier for the majority to steam-roll their wants over the minority party's objections.
What happens when some smart propaganda artist gets some one smarter than trump and has an actual agenda elected?
It's the coming swing to the other side of trump that has me scared. And I didn't think that was possible.
What happens when some smart propaganda artist gets some one smarter than trump and has an actual agenda elected?
It's the coming swing to the other side of trump that has me scared. And I didn't think that was possible.
I give you 4 pages
Poltergust
Member
I don't think Trump is the kind of tyrant this video is describing, if only because I doubt his favorability will ever increase going into the future.
Whys that
Monocle
Member
You're being awfully dismissive of a whole lot of valuable insight.
It's really nothing like the video portrays it. Narrator makes it sound like he's quoting the text.
Karsticles
Member
Plato's Republic is one of the greatest books ever written. It is a gift to all mankind.
Edit: I recommend the Allan Bloom translation.
Edit: I recommend the Allan Bloom translation.
There are numerous liberties taken in the video, but the general sentiment is accurate..
I wouldn't say it's nothing like the video, but he's pulling wholly from the end of the book.
Still sounds like an interesting read.
Interface_2037
Banned
In Plato's time the tyrant never had to contend with a population armed to the teeth with hand guns and assault rifles.
So I wouldn't worry about the comparison too much.
So I wouldn't worry about the comparison too much.
Ragnar Blackmane
Member
´The checks and balances in the Weimar republic were awful. The president of the country (Hindenburg) could literally dissolve the parliament and fore re-elections over and over again, which he did. Until the NSDAP actually got close to getting a majority, then using a fake regional conservative puppet party to form a coalition and push themselves past the 50% needed to take over (NSDAP alone only got 43%). Of course that happened when there were literally SA and SS goons patrolling the streets as deputy- policemen with attack dogs and looking over your shoulder in the voting offices . So no, it doesn't take the support of the majority of the population to take over with some tricks.
The checks and balances of the US system aren't that great either however, the Republicans are controlling the Executive, both legislative branches and Trump has a very good chance to nominate new supreme court judges and gain de facto republican/conservative control of the Judicative. If that happens, which checks and balances are actually left to prevent severe changes the political system? Not sayin that this will turn into the second coming of the 3rd Reich, but the PIS party in Poland has shown how easy it can be to severly damage the democratic system against the will of the majority of voters and the supreme court if they just push hard enough.
Good luck using those assault rifles against these things when they are mounted with 50. cals and grenade launchers:
And that's not even taking the US Army into account which has always been rather conservative and Republican friendly.
Whilst the whites remain the ethic majority, they aren't monolithic as far as having a common ideology that is pro Trump & existence of significant number population within other ethnicities that are anti Trump puts up a significant road block on the path to pure tyranny. A civil war will break out prior to that.
Of course, America stopped being a true democracy a long time ago with its corrupted political system with lobbying & having a two tiered justice system- one for the rich & another for less fortunate.
Of course, America stopped being a true democracy a long time ago with its corrupted political system with lobbying & having a two tiered justice system- one for the rich & another for less fortunate.
Rimon-hanit
Member
You guys do know Socrates/Plato was a pessimistic asswhip, the "King Philosopher" isn't something we should aspire towards.
Please note that the "Philosopher King" was entirely Plato's idea, not Socrates. But yes, I do agree with you that it is not something we should aspire towards. In my opinion, Plato was a bit crazy with his ideal societies.
Everything needs to be taken with a healthy dose of salt. However, that being said, the words about tyranny do ring true.
Rimon-hanit
Member
What are you basing that distinction on. (Not criticizing honestly curious, feel free to PM to avoid going off topic)
It's generally very difficult to attribute much to Socrates, as he never wrote anything. Most of the records we have of him are from Plato's writings. But there is a clear distinction to anything about what Socrates said (through Plato's writings involving Socrates' dialogues) and say, Plato's writings on his ideal societies. Those are strictly his own creations.
Now, it's been a long time since I read the Republic, so I might be missing some details. But that was my understanding of it.
EDIT: I see my understanding of the Republic is a bit wrong, after doing a bit of fact-checking, so disregard my musings. As I said, it's been a long time since I've read the book. Still, I fully believe that many of those details come from Plato and not Socrates himself.
NoblesseOblige
Banned
Plato is fun to read but his philosophies are... well thousands of years old. I would not put much stock into it. There are much better modern ideas.
And as aside I love the production of that video.
And as aside I love the production of that video.
- Status