Support NeoGAF

[tt_deeb]

...

He's 9 years old, and he's undoubtedly a professional at the instrument:

http://www.monumentweb.com/Malchonka1.wmv

But how come it's such a chore to sit through this merely 3 and a 1/2 minute clip? I mean, it's impressive for a minute or two but this just further enhances my belief that supreme talent almost never equals good music. I know this has probably been discussed before along with Petrucci, Vai, Satriani and the likes. I like some songs from each of them. But maybe a little performance disability or laziness can actually be the main ingredient to great songwriting.

 

[Teknopathetic]

I don't think song writing talent and technical talent are variable of each other, but I do think that people who can't play as fast might try to look into unique ways to make their songs sound more interesting.

 

[Raxel]

That kid is playing Paul Gilbert's live solo when he was in Racer X. Pretty damn impressive given his age!

I've made this point before, but why is it always the folks who aren't technically proficient, who listen to music featuring musicians that aren't technically proficient, the ones who seem to complain about shredding? How about you pick up a guitar, try playing to their level, and maybe you'll begin to appreciate the technique behind the music.

 

[WHOAguitarninja]

Yea, I've seen this kid before. He makes me want to quit playing guitar, haha. I've been playing almost as long as this kid has been alive and he can outplay me. I'm no slouch but this kid is just nucking futs.

But how come it's such a chore to sit through this merely 3 and a 1/2 minute clip? I mean, it's impressive for a minute or two but this just further enhances my belief that supreme talent almost never equals good music. I know this has probably been discussed before along with Petrucci, Vai, Satriani and the likes. I like some songs from each of them. But maybe a little performance disability or laziness can actually be the main ingredient to great songwriting.

For the love of god the kid isn't even 10 years old. Cut him some slack. I was still playing hot crossed buns on the piano when I was his age. This kid has plenty of time to learn how to write songs.

The main ingredient to great song writing is not disability or laziness. The main ingredient to great songwriting is creativity. Suggesting that people who are not technically capapble are somehow automatically better song writers than people who are is just dumb. It's creativity, folks, creativity. Technique and creativity are not mutually exclusive, however they really don't tend to have a large impact on each other when it comes to learning to play an instrument. As you get more technical, you don't necessarily get more creative, and as you learn to be more creative, you don't necessarily learn to be more technical.

Unfortunately, all most people that aren't familiar (I mean VERy familiar) with technical guitar playing have only heard catchy, less technical music, and then straight up shred. Most people are introduced to Dream Theater on the concept of "LOOK HOW MANY NOTES THEY CAN FIT IN THEIR SOLOS!" without having all their hooks and emotionally grabbing sections pointed out in the same way.

Listen to Pain of Salvation, songs like "Handful of Nothing" and "Beyond the Pale" are highly emotional and will grab if you like no other if you give them time to sink in(they're not a "first listen" band, they take time). Interestingly enough, they are also highly technical. Especially handful of nothing (I hereby challenge every guitarist on this board to learn the first riff. It sounds amazingly simple but I guarantee you as soon as you try and play it your head will be spinning. To give you an idea of the skills these guys have, the singer plays that riff and sings at the same time).

Simply put, technicality and good song writing, when you get right down, have very little to do with each other. They are not mutually exclusive, nor does one really enhance the other. Suggesting that better music comes from technically less proficient musicians though is somewhat goofy.

 

[Litigation Manuel]

Well, I've been playing guitar for 6 and a half years, and shredding is one of the most annoying things that exist. While it is technically impressive, most of it sounds the same and offers very little creativity on the part of the musician. Most of the virtuosos out there only seem to go through scales and modes as fast as they can, not really creating anything on their own, just following the patterns of music theory. Also, most of the focus lies in playing the notes as fast as possible, which while impressive, isn't that great to hear. There are a lot more interesting things that take a lot more skill to play than shredding requires. It takes a lot of practice and time, but anyone (mostly) could do what most of these people are doing with enough time and practice. What is the real mark of a musician is actually creating something new and different, which shredding most definitely is not.

 

[WHOAguitarninja]

Well, I've been playing guitar for 6 and a half years, and shredding is one of the most annoying things that exist. While it is technically impressive, most of it sounds the same and offers very little creativity on the part of the musician. Most of the virtuosos out there only seem to go through scales and modes as fast as they can, not really creating anything on their own, just following the patterns of music theory. Also, most of the focus lies in playing the notes as fast as possible, which while impressive, isn't that great to hear. There are a lot more interesting things that take a lot more skill to play than shredding requires. It takes a lot of practice and time, but anyone (mostly) could do what most of these people are doing with enough time and practice. What is the real mark of a musician is actually creating something new and different, which shredding most definitely is not.

To be fair, you are applying that acrost an entire style. Creating a good shred solo requires no less creativity than creating a nice chord progession. Only problem is that to most people, the nuances are harder to hear. Chord progressions are obviously going to sound more varied and creative between them because they're slower, and the differences are easier to pick up on.

 

[Mr. Spinnington]

; 0

HOLY SHITZENKAUF!!!

 

[Rob]

I have played guitar for many years and I have to say that this kid is incredible given his age! I could never hope to do what he does.

Shredding has it's "place." However I feel it is vastly over used and abused by those who are proficient at it. To borrow a line from Jurassic Park, shredders spend so much time with whether or not they could, they never stopped to think if they should.

Personally I have always been more impressed with the guitarists who've been able to do a lot with very little. Virtually none of the guitarists that were my influences would be considered top tier shredders. Guys like Ace Frehley, Keith Richards, Joe Perry, Gary Rossington, Billy Gibbons, Jimmy Page, Jimmi Hendrix, David Gilmour, Pete Townsend, and Brian May. None of these guys are great technical players. However they SAY something in their playing that speaks to me.

When it comes to shredders like Vai, Satriani, Malmsteen, and Lynch, after a while it's like watching a typist type very fast. Impressive at first, however after a while it loses it's luster.

The only shredder I can think of that I really like is Petrucci from Dream Theater. Mainly because he is also an excellent songwriter and he actually holds back. He dosen't always self-indulge in making his solos overly flashy or complex, eventhough he could if he wanted to.

Remember when it comes to great music, sometimes it's not so much what you put into it, but what you leave out.

 

[demon]

Technically amazing; artistically and creatively empty. Such is the typical shred.

None of these guys are great technical players.

Huh? Being able to play super fucking fast is only one facet--and not even a necessary one--to technical proficiency at an instrument.

 

[WHOAguitarninja]

Technically amazing; artistically and creatively empty. Such is the typical shred.

Huh? Being able to play super fucking fast is only one facet--and not even a necessary one--to technical proficiency at an instrument.

The kid isn't even 10 years old! Cut him some slack. Unless of course you were writing emotionally moving nad provocative peices when you were 9(I've actually heard in other places the kid is 8, doesn't really matter though).

And I agree with your second comment.

 

[soakrates]

Yeah, that kid's crazy. I've been playing the guitar for longer than he's been alive, and he could probably outshred me already.

Anyway, I've heard tons of anti-shred comments, and while I think many of them are valid, I also firmly believe that some people hate shred because it's proof positive that being a great all-around guitar player is really hard work. Much of shred is just mindless arppeggio-scale-wanking, yes, but the best shredders play some of the most musical solos you'll ever hear. Pick up a CD from Tony MacAlpine, Shawn Lane or hell, even Eric Johnson, who really isn't even a shredder but has the chops to be one.

I say this every time the topic comes up, but if you're serious about playing your instrument, you should become as technically proficient as possible. It will pay off in the long run, not just because you'll be able to play more challenging music, but also because what you play will just sound better.

 

[Desperado]

...

 

[Ford Prefect]

This kid's impressive on the guitar...but...

...he's fat.

 

[Littleberu]

...he's fat.

You mean "young"?

 

[Diablos]

I'd rather listen to someone super creative like Jack White instead of the same old shred.
Impressive given his age, but it's the same old shit.

 

[sprsk]

yeeeeeeeah, this isnt unusual, there are crazy kids out there that do very textbook things really well.

lets just hope he doesnt continue to just listen to yngwie malmsteen for the rest of his career

 

[tt_deeb]

For the love of god the kid isn't even 10 years old. Cut him some slack. I was still playing hot crossed buns on the piano when I was his age. This kid has plenty of time to learn how to write songs.

I know; the topic wasn't meant to be a rant on him, it's shredding in general, and this video just happened to spark it.

As you get more technical, you don't necessarily get more creative, and as you learn to be more creative, you don't necessarily learn to be more technical.

Yeah, but being more technical seems to be a popular spot to hide from being more creative.

 

[Coop]

I love the kid next to him fiddling around with his bassguitar

 

[Shinobi]

I was still playing hot crossed buns on the piano when I was his age.

:lol :lol :lol

 

[SatelliteOfLove]

That kid is playing Paul Gilbert's live solo when he was in Racer X. Pretty damn impressive given his age!

I've made this point before, but why is it always the folks who aren't technically proficient, who listen to music featuring musicians that aren't technically proficient, the ones who seem to complain about shredding? How about you pick up a guitar, try playing to their level, and maybe you'll begin to appreciate the technique behind the music.

Yeah, the kid likes Racer X, and therefore is automatically cool irreguardless.

 

[Beezy]

...he's fat.

:lol

 

[Teknopathetic]

"I've made this point before, but why is it always the folks who aren't technically proficient, who listen to music featuring musicians that aren't technically proficient, the ones who seem to complain about shredding? How about you pick up a guitar, try playing to their level, and maybe you'll begin to appreciate the technique behind the music."

I don't think anyone doesn't appreciate the technique, it's pretty obvious how talented he is, and I don't think the topic-starter's insulting the kid, so much as shredding in general.

 

[Claus]

It'd be better if he wasn't staring at the fingerboard almost the entire time.

 

[spikydavid]

I don't like people who can play guitar fast, so it sucks

I quite like some shredders, cos they can play music, just faster. I'm a little worried by anyone that quotes Jimi Hendrix and Brian May in their list of favourite guitarists, and then claims that they aren't technically proficient. I believe the apposite quote from Steve Vai was that if people *could* play as fast as him, then they would.

 

[olimario]

Where is the video of the japanese girl playing the a classical piece on a classical acoustic guitar?
That was impressive and fun to listen to.

This... It's shitty music... That's why you can't listen for very long.

 

[demon]

I like shitty music, as long as it's really fucking fast. If you don't too, you're just jealous.

I too was confused by listing the likes of Hendrix as technically nonproficient guitarists, though.

 

[Foreign Jackass]

I quite like some shredders, cos they can play music, just faster. I'm a little worried by anyone that quotes Jimi Hendrix and Brian May in their list of favourite guitarists, and then claims that they aren't technically proficient. I believe the apposite quote from Steve Vai was that if people *could* play as fast as him, then they would.

Yeah, cause we all know if a song is faster, it's better. Moonlight Sonata played at 50000 beats per second is a pretty fucking good song.

 

[Fixed2BeBroken]

I quite like some shredders, cos they can play music, just faster. I'm a little worried by anyone that quotes Jimi Hendrix and Brian May in their list of favourite guitarists, and then claims that they aren't technically proficient. I believe the apposite quote from Steve Vai was that if people *could* play as fast as him, then they would.

hahaha

i remember i posted a Kaki king clip. she was playing "wicked" fast and then ALL the haters started jumping in here talking about "Fast doesnt = Good...IT SUCKS!" and blah blah blah..

But the thing was, it sounded amazing even tho it was fast. It didnt sound like incoherent noise. there was a distinct melody there even tho it was going crazy fast.
I think its just jealousy or something that caused the reaction.

what a bunch of fucking haters.

 

[drohne]

am i even affronting "shredding" when i call it boring, meaningless, and extramusical? i mean, shredders don't play that way for listeners. they play that way to impress other guitarists. i play guitar -- badly -- and i'm duly impressed by steve vai. just don't ask me to listen to anything he plays on.

edit: why did i say "effacing" instead of "affronting." i think my brain is going.

 

[WHOAguitarninja]

To everyone calling shred inherently unmusical...

It's merely a different style, and I don't think people realise that. It's like this...I don't like country. At all. I absolutely loathe it. I'm not going to call it non-musical and pointless wankery though, because I can understand that it's the STYLE that I don't like. I just don't like it, I have absolutely nothing against it, I just don't like it.

I'm fine with people saying they don't like shred, that's cool, and totally understandable. What I'm not fine with, is people saying that shred is somehow inherently unmusical, or as soon as a guitarist starts playing fast, he loses the feeling or the emotion. That's simply not true. There are plenty of examples of emotional passages that just happen to be fast. Listen to the fast section in steve vai's "For the Love of God". Or, maybe even better, try and track down a video of Eric Johnson's Cliffs of Dover live. I beleive theres only one video out there thats common. You'll know if it's the right one because it has some announcer at the beggining, sounds like its for TV. Anyway, it's largely shred, but is absolutely musical and quite a great melody. I beleive the beggining was largely improvised as well.

I'd also like to say that I think alot of people confuse not liking shred with not liking instrumental passages and solos in general. Not everyone, but I know quite a few people who simply say they don't like shred, but when playing any song with an instrumental passage towards the beggining, their first comment is always "when do the vocals start?". Many people simply need their songs to be heavy on the vocals, and without much space in between. They hear shred, and then they think it's simply the shred they dislike. Again that's not everyone, and I know some people just really don't like shred.

What I'm really getting at, is that shred is not inherently unmusical. Some people always claim that it is, and the simple fact is that they are wrong. No ifs, ands, or buts about it. That's not to say all shred is interesting, as it is undoubtedly harder to compose a good shred solo than a catchy chord progression, but when they're good, they are awesome.

 

[olimario]

What the kid played didn't seem to have any rhythm or any coherent melody. Playing fast is fine, but when it losing the attributes I consider crucial to being music, I say it's inherently unmusical.

 

[WHOAguitarninja]

What the kid played didn't seem to have any rhythm or any coherent melody. Playing fast is fine, but when it losing the attributes I consider crucial to being music, I say it's inherently unmusical.

That's fine but I think the arguments have strayed from this kid alone and to shred in general. Your original point was directed at this kid alone, hence, my post wasn't really directed at you . I agree that he definitely did not choose the best possible thing to play, though, in terms of being musically interesting.

Also, shred almost always sounds much more boring when it's by itself and not put into a musical context. Often the way it sounds over chords is completely different than the way it sounds by itself. It's almost impossible to compose an interesting peice of shred by itself with no musical backing to go from, hence, shred almost universally sounds unappealing when it's not accompanied by an actual song.

 

[Diablos]

There's no reason to argue about this. Have you all forgotten about a band called Nirvana? Bands like this proved that they don't have to be as technically gifted as the guitar gods that came before them. They proved that creativity can be just as good if not better than technical ability.

I like a happy medium. This is why I personally think guitarists like Jack White, Billy Corgan, Jonny Greenwood, Tom Morello, Kim Thayil, I could go on - are the best guitarists in the world right now. They're not so "creative" that they just dumb themselves down to noisy power riffing, but not so "technical" that they aren't just abusing the fret board as fast as they possibly can. They're lodged in the middle somewhere. I'd rather hear Jonny Greenwood play My Iron Lung a thousand times than watch that Michael Angelo video again.

 

[drohne]

by "extramusical" i don't mean that shredding is "inherently unmusical," as you put it. i just mean that shredders play what they play -- at least in part -- for the sake of playing something really difficult, rather than to communicate something musically. a 360 between-the-legs slamdunk on a breakaway is certainly neat, but it isn't exactly basketball.

 

[Ford Prefect]

I don't know what the problem is here... what the kid played is damned impressive. Nobody's asking of him to bless their ears with sweet, sweet music; he's just there to shred like mad. It's amazing because he's nine years old. It's not unamazing because he's not the next Paul McCartney.

Cripes.

 

[drohne]

oh, i have no problem with the kid. i liked that video. somehow shred sounds right in that context. i'd probably like shred generally if it came from the hilariously full-sized guitars of fat little kids. rather than the oddly-shaped guitars of poodle-permed goons.

 

[Late Stage Marxist]

I can't get over how relaxed he looks. The playing style is not something I normally listen to on a day to day basis, but it doesn't make it any less impressive. Anyone who isn't at all impressed by this is probably just a lazyass guitarist.

 

[soakrates]

There's no reason to argue about this. Have you all forgotten about a band called Nirvana? Bands like this proved that they don't have to be as technically gifted as the guitar gods that came before them. They proved that creativity can be just as good if not better than technical ability.

No one has said that technical ability is required to be a great songwriter. There just seems to be this ill-gotten idea that those who shred are just trying to cover up their lack of creativity or trying to impress people, which is sometimes -- but far from always -- true.

 

[Diablos]

No one has said that technical ability is required to be a great songwriter. There just seems to be this ill-gotten idea that those who shred are just trying to cover up their lack of creativity or trying to impress people, which is sometimes -- but far from always -- true.

I heard a new Bruce Dickenson song, and the man has a lot of talent, and blows away every guitarist I just mentioned. At the same time, look at Jonny Greenwood. I've seen him play live, and I've never ever heard someone like Dickenson do even half of the things he does.

I guess, traditionally speaking, guitarists like Dickenson or Michael Angelo prove that they have mastered guitar in the traditional sense. But I think you have to give guitarists like Hendrix credit too. There's clearly two opposite schools of thought when it comes to playing guitar. Technically gifted and extremely fast, or creative and melodic. A lot of guitarists that came about in the 90's took the best of both worlds.

 

[iapetus]

I believe the apposite quote from Steve Vai was that if people *could* play as fast as him, then they would.

While I agree that there's a lot of unnecessary shred-hating going on here, I'll have to disagree with Mr Vai on that one. I'd love to be able to play as fast as Steve Vai, but if I could, I wouldn't. Except occasionally to piss people off...

 

[Foreign Jackass]

There's no reason to argue about this. Have you all forgotten about a band called Nirvana? Bands like this proved that they don't have to be as technically gifted as the guitar gods that came before them. They proved that creativity can be just as good if not better than technical ability.

I like a happy medium. This is why I personally think guitarists like Jack White, Billy Corgan, Jonny Greenwood, Tom Morello, Kim Thayil, I could go on - are the best guitarists in the world right now. They're not so "creative" that they just dumb themselves down to noisy power riffing, but not so "technical" that they aren't just abusing the fret board as fast as they possibly can. They're lodged in the middle somewhere. I'd rather hear Jonny Greenwood play My Iron Lung a thousand times than watch that Michael Angelo video again.

I'd add Malkmus to this list, just because he does great melodic guitar parts that aren't always that easy to play.

 

[krypt0nian]

Impressive mechanical ability but he could be replaced with a machine....just like all shredders.

pass.

 

[GhaleonEB]

Impressive mechanical ability but he could be replaced with a machine....just like all shredders.

pass.

I was reminded of this quote from Roger Ebert's review of the Psycho remake:

I was reminded of the child prodigy who was summoned to perform for a famous pianist. The child climbed onto the piano stool and played something by Chopin with great speed and accuracy. The great musician then patted the child on the head and said, "You can play the notes. Someday, you may be able to play the music."

 

[Diablos]

I'd add Malkmus to this list, just because he does great melodic guitar parts that aren't always that easy to play.

:lol :lol :lol :lol

Thurston Moore and Lee Ronaldo > Pavement

 

[soakrates]

I heard a new Bruce Dickenson song, and the man has a lot of talent, and blows away every guitarist I just mentioned.

There's clearly two opposite schools of thought when it comes to playing guitar. Technically gifted and extremely fast, or creative and melodic. A lot of guitarists that came about in the 90's took the best of both worlds.

For one thing, Bruce doesn't play the guitar on that album. It's Roy Z from Tribe From Gypsies, and yeah, he's a monster.

Second, there's no reason that a guitarist can't be technically gifted, creative and melodic simultaneously. Just listen to "Tumeni Notes" by Steve Morse. Its main melody is infectious, inventive and technically impressive all at the same time. The same is true for many, many other songs in the genre.

 

[speedpop]

Just watched it. Technically it was impressive I s'pose. Not a big fan of show-offy guitarists.

Disappointed that whatever he was playing he was not into it at all. Call me old fashioned but it was as if the music he was making was not absorbing him. -2 points to little fella with the red cap and buckteeth!

 

[demon]

Second, there's no reason that a guitarist can't be technically gifted, creative and melodic simultaneously. Just listen to "Tumeni Notes" by Steve Morse. Its main melody is infectious, inventive and technically impressive all at the same time. The same is true for many, many other songs in the genre.

Once again, there's much more to being "technically gifted" than being able to play really fucking fast. There's nothing wrong with playing really fast when it's appropriate, but doing it ALL THE FUCKING TIME--aka shredding--is overusing it and typically compensating for a lack of creativity, musicality, and being able to do anything else.

 

[Foreign Jackass]

:lol :lol :lol :lol

Thurston Moore and Lee Ronaldo > Pavement

You obviously don't know the fuck you're talking about. I saw both Malkmus and the Pumpkins live, and well, it's just fucking easy for me to say that Malkmus kicked the Pumpkins ass to oblivion. And I'm a big Pumpkins fan. They just weren't a great live band, Corgan's voice sucks, and they had no chemistry at all on stage. Plus, Corgan was shredding boring solos all over.

Pumpkins albums > Malkmus Live > Malkmus albums >>>>>>>>> Pumpkins Live

I never saw Sonic Youth live, but yeah, these guys both play great guitar.

 

[soakrates]

Once again, there's much more to being "technically gifted" than being able to play really fucking fast. There's nothing wrong with playing really fast when it's appropriate, but doing it ALL THE FUCKING TIME--aka shredding--is overusing it and typically compensating for a lack of creativity, musicality, and being able to do anything else.

Save for your definition of shredding, I agree completely. Also, I feel I should point out that there are plenty of "non-technical" guitarists who are just as creatively bankrupt as any shredder.

 

[Diablos]

You obviously don't know the fuck you're talking about. I saw both Malkmus and the Pumpkins live, and well, it's just fucking easy for me to say that Malkmus kicked the Pumpkins ass to oblivion. And I'm a big Pumpkins fan. They just weren't a great live band, Corgan's voice sucks, and they had no chemistry at all on stage. Plus, Corgan was shredding boring solos all over.

Taking one for the team I see.

Well, that's really nice, but I've heard a lot of other unbiased opinions of SP live performances as well, and most people were very impressed. When did you see them? The band had more chemistry than ever before during the Machina tour.


I believe FMT said the only band he's seen that are actually better than the Pumpkins (technically speaking) are Nine Inch Nails. This kid has seen SP a million times.