Except it's not a white savior trope. He doesn't save anyone nor is he better than anyone. Faster learner, yeah, but it's a movie that has to fit in a specific time frame.
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Thoughts on the "Mighty Whitey" Trope in Fiction
- Thread starter Wanda/Wander
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Except it's not a white savior trope. He doesn't save anyone nor is he better than anyone. Faster learner, yeah, but it's a movie that has to fit in a specific time frame.
sssstententen
Member
One of my favorite parts of Creed is how it turns this trope on its head. We see the in fiction former white pGOAT teaching and mentoring Apolo's son and it sets the tone for him to potentially surpass both of them.
While not a perfect example, it does show it can work the other way around.
While not a perfect example, it does show it can work the other way around.
Eh. Atreides are Greek descendants, I think. But that's about 10,000 years in the future at least. Like, the book starts in 10191 by their calendar.
Paul becomes "Best Fremen" and then sets in motion the end of their culture as they know it. He satisfies the trope until you realize that he is more destroyer than hero.
That's something I really like. Expectations vs reality.
Dubbedinenglish
Banned
Eh Last Samurai isn't this. Actually subverts a lot of the same tropes, he doesn't become the strongest, lead the "natives" or become their savior.
Wanda/Wander
Member
fixed
lightskintwin
Banned
The great thing about Creed is Ryan Coogler lowkey made a Black film without people realizing it. LOL The story is centered around a Black protagonist, Adonis. Creed's wife, Mary Anne essentially saving her husband's bastard and becoming his mother. Adonis's girlfriend, Bianca, who not only supports him, but also has her own motivation in becoming a singer, and then the genius of tying the globally recognized brand of Rocky into the fold, and making this main character into a supporting character and becoming a father figure into this newly formed family between Adonis, Mary Anne, Bianca, and Rocky.
?? what would be Rocky 3? Where the Italian gets help from the African Americans to beat native american/African American clubber lang?
In context, it sucks, because every time Superman saves somebody in one of these movies he looks depressed as hell.
Dictator93
Member
God BTiLC is so good.
Fits a bunch of the things mentioned in the OP. about the only thing missing is he's not "the most powerful" or "their leader"; instead he becomes the right-hand man of the leader, and essentially equally as powerful as him.
He romances a woman whose very important husband he killed, he learns the way of the "natives", tries to help save them from the imperialists (aided by the whites), saves the leader multiple times, and in the end he basically does represent the natives.. and "Saves them" when he talks to the emperor on behalf of them. Basically acting as their leader.
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
The good thing about Dune is that there is no reason for Paul Atreides to be cast as explicitly white.
In the novels Daenerys is not a white saviour, she's essentially a trope reversal/subversion of it, as
Moreover, she frequently shows ruthlessness of her own and doesn't rule in a Jesus style at all.
Makes me glad I dropped this garbage adaptation, sigh...
Whaaaat? Has the TV show deviated from the novels that much? >_<
In the novels Daenerys is not a white saviour, she's essentially a trope reversal/subversion of it, as
every city she conquers turns to disaster, and she is incapable of maintaining a stable, effective rule in Meereen.
Makes me glad I dropped this garbage adaptation, sigh...
The ending of the movie is also makes a point of this, by having Algrin back in his US Army uniform when meeting the emperor to hand over Katsumoto's sword. He wears the samurai armor during the final battle as a gesture of solidarity to show he's standing with them, but the film makes it a point to say that the samurai died with Katsumoto (hence the title of the film) and that Cruise's character was never really one of them.
it reminds me of gundam wing where trieze had to remind the Rome feller foundation not to use mobile dolls because it removes the accent of battle.
just like how the Americans preferred to use the gatling gun in the end. affective but impersonal.
thus cruise says no more and turns to respect the samurai code more.
Yes, the samurai died with Katsumoto. I don't see how him changing into his Army garb or not becoming THE leader or THE most powerful somehow subverts all the other white savior aspects of the movie.
The white "not quite" savior maybe.
Nah it's the genre.
Tilda Swinton in Dr. Strange really has me split two ways.
The movie is basically like "Oh you thought the "Ancient One" would be this Asian guy? Hah! It's this WHITE lady instead! Bet you didn't see that coming huh?" which is super annoying because white women don't have trouble getting roles, where as Asian men are basically boxed out of lead roles in Hollywood. I didn't need to see another movie telling me how dumb I am to expect differently.
ON THE OTHER HAND, she was really damn good in that part, and made the character make total sense even though her backstory was super vague.
The movie is basically like "Oh you thought the "Ancient One" would be this Asian guy? Hah! It's this WHITE lady instead! Bet you didn't see that coming huh?" which is super annoying because white women don't have trouble getting roles, where as Asian men are basically boxed out of lead roles in Hollywood. I didn't need to see another movie telling me how dumb I am to expect differently.
ON THE OTHER HAND, she was really damn good in that part, and made the character make total sense even though her backstory was super vague.
writing it as we speak. hope you don't mind it being a buddy cop film.
lightskintwin
Banned
You can't hide behind the genre. Take ownership of the choices you made when writing your fantasy.
Wanda/Wander
Member
I don't know if I remember correctly but they may have done that same exact joke in Batman Begins.
It wasn't just any white woman though. It was Tilda Swinton.
She's like an androgynous angel creature. Asian people need way more roles in Hollywood, but she was still great casting.
weird question. if benedict was to be paid $1 million for this role. what male asian actor would you cast as the ancient and for how much?
and was tilde good enough for the job in your opinion? or just good enough for a white woman? or for a woman?
lightskintwin
Banned
It doesn't and yet people will keep defending it.
"The Last Samurai is a movie that pretends to be anti-imperialist while its internal meaning, telling the story of a white man who comes to be as good or better than those in a culture that is completely new to him, could not be more imperialistic. The road is littered with beautiful shots and good intentions, but in the end, that's the story of this movie."
Apparently. Dany in the book is a descendent of one of the most evil cultures in modern Planetos history. They were not white saviors- they were all about power for themselves.Valaria in Essos was built on slavery, oppression, genocide, blood magic, and dragons.
The Valarians in Westros were a mixed bag of good and evil. Very few actual cared about the people of Westros- they only cared about the power they gain ruling Westros.
Dany herself thinks slavery is bad only because she was one. But she is constantly wrestling with her heritage aka blood of the dragon.
She is being written to be a subversion of the white savior trope. She is trying to be one, yes. But the world is stacked against her and she has dragons. You don't make peace with dragons. You make people submit.
It's more of an imagery problem on the show. Dany makes a mess of a bunch of things but they do this exact same scene multiple times where she makes a good move and then a sea of brown people fall down in veneration.
Sound argument. I'm convinced.
They pretty much did.
Are we disagreeing over something here? What I meant originally is that high-fantasy is known for being often "mighty-whitey" and in my opinion "fantasy" is never completely detached from reality.
No, it's pretty much exactly as you've described here. I'm trying to think of what her acts of kindness she reciprocates with that the poster you're replying to is referencing are. She frees the slaves in Meereen and gets praised by for it in the short term, but that completely turns to shit because things aren't that simple. The only times things go her way way are when she is ruthless.
lightskintwin
Banned
I know and that's due to uncreativity, not the genre itself.
OK, I'll put it this way. I don't have an Asian male actor in mind, my issue with Tilda Swinton has nothing to do with her acting (which was good). It wasn't a matter of "good enough" or not, it's just that the character in the comics is an Asian dude, and before you throw out "BUT WHAT ABOUT MICHAEL B JORDON!" at me, please consider that there aren't a lot of roles for Asian actors as it is. Giving them to white people seems to just worsen the issue.
On the other hand, their vision of the Ancient One seems to be totally based on Tilda Swinton and the presence she brings to the screen. My final verdict on the issue is that she did a great job playing to her strengths, but if they went in another direction and went with an Asian actor and did something special with that, I would be even more in favour in it.
I guess, my argument only makes sense if you care about whether or not Asian people are getting roles in Hollywood, if you're not with me on that, then there's nowhere else we can go with this.
Wanda/Wander
Member
I do wonder how Iron Fist will deal with this
DrForester
Kills Photobucket
Kind of depends on how it's done.
Others have mentioned Doctor Strange, and how Strange was a white guy, but the training he received was given to many people of various ethnicity. I appreciated that, and it didn't bug me.
I think it also depends if the "mighty whitey" is the savior of the film
For example. Avatar. Whats-his-name is the savior of the Navi. Without him, all is lost.
I didn't care for that.
By contrast, look at Dances with Wolves. Dunbar is pretty much just another guy. He gets to know the tribe, he is accepted, but their survival is not dependent on him. He told them where the Bufallo were, and he gave them a cache of guns to fight the Pawnee, but even then. He is of course the main character, and focus of the narrative, but he's not there to save the people.
Others have mentioned Doctor Strange, and how Strange was a white guy, but the training he received was given to many people of various ethnicity. I appreciated that, and it didn't bug me.
I think it also depends if the "mighty whitey" is the savior of the film
For example. Avatar. Whats-his-name is the savior of the Navi. Without him, all is lost.
I didn't care for that.
By contrast, look at Dances with Wolves. Dunbar is pretty much just another guy. He gets to know the tribe, he is accepted, but their survival is not dependent on him. He told them where the Bufallo were, and he gave them a cache of guns to fight the Pawnee, but even then. He is of course the main character, and focus of the narrative, but he's not there to save the people.
asians in hollywood,sure Donnie Yen is great and can't wait to see him in rogue one. but the Asian Population in the US is 4% of..400 mil compared to the 1 billion of China,not just asia. so as a asian actor, what incentive do I have to work in the us. Unless I already have a pull (like Donnie yen)
OK, I'll put it this way. I don't have an Asian male actor in mind, my issue with Tilda Swinton has nothing to do with her acting (which was good). It wasn't a matter of "good enough" or not, it's just that the character in the comics is an Asian dude, and before you throw out "BUT WHAT ABOUT MICHAEL B JORDON!" at me, please consider that there aren't a lot of roles for Asian actors as it is. Giving them to white people seems to just worsen the issue.
On the other hand, their vision of the Ancient One seems to be totally based on Tilda Swinton and the presence she brings to the screen. My final verdict on the issue is that she did a great job playing to her strengths, but if they went in another direction and went with an Asian actor and did something special with that, I would be even more in favour in it.
I guess, my argument only makes sense if you care about whether or not Asian people are getting roles in Hollywood, if you're not with me on that, then there's nowhere else we can go with this.
comic book reader. I could care less for who plays what.bd wong is playing Hugo strange on gotham granted he's shorter and not bald,but he fit the role of a crazy psychologist like a glove. Michael b Jordan actually auditioned for the role,so it was more earned. and I believe that was the same director he worked with on chronicles. which I could use as a excuse to ask why hasn't justin lin directed more to bring more good asian actors into light?
No, I think Danny stays one of the crappiest Iron Fists.
I swear to god people need to read Ironfist, Danny sucks. He babysits the ndestined Ironfist and she is like 6 and is flying and resurrecting dragons and shit. When the city got wrecked he offered to help rebuild and they were like "You would just hold us back"
broncobuster
Banned
That's the point of the scene. He's smiling when saving the girl from the burning building, but becomes uncomfortable when they treat him like a god. A line in the scene kind of sums it up; he's a guy trying to do the right thing and everybody projects the concepts of angels and demons on him.
The movie is a fun inversion of a lot of the ideas. Jack Burton isn't totally useless, but he's klutz next to Wang and the others.
WrenchNinja
Member
I love how people bring up how it's based on a true story.
Like no shit, really? no wonder hollywood went with making it a movie. they can use that weakass defense
Knightmarre
Member
Tom Cruise's character is basically just an observer, his actions have no effect on the outcome of the movie. Like Indiana Jones in Raiders of the Lost Ark.
Glass Rebel
Member
I really, really hope they go with this Danny. The teaser makes him look too badass but it could be misleading.
Saint Gregory
Member
I feel like Doctor Strange is a bad example of Mighty Whitey. Yes, he does excel extremely and inexplicably fast vs his peers but it's basically hinted from the beginning that the reason for this is the same reason why he was such an incredible surgeon, he has an intrinsic ability to think outside of the box (and a photographic memory).
Now that Great Wall trailer that played before Doctor Strange on the other hand... my eyes could not have rolled any harder.
This made me LOL
Now that Great Wall trailer that played before Doctor Strange on the other hand... my eyes could not have rolled any harder.
This made me LOL
Comfort Jones
Banned
Yeah I've never really understood why people see a story about a white man witnessing/participating in the events as inherently being a "white savior". I really saw it as a film about people from different cultures coming to understand and respect each other. He's already a respected warrior when they find him and it's not like he suddenly becomes "leader of the samurai" or some shit. The Last Samurai refers to Watanabe's character, not him.
tomato shrub
Member
Wasn't Batman Begins the same? I don't quite remember.
Ether_Snake
å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®
It doesn't really. I mean it doesn't end great for him, but he's still saving the Shogun's life and gets the hot chick and all that, even two. But it's based on a relatively true story anyway.
There is actually a lot of true stories that date back to the 18th and 19th century of "mighty whitey", as in white people who became important in a kingdom or culture for some time, and the trope mostly came from that. The thing is it endures in the 21st century in Hollywood, unsurprisingly.
Aaronology
Member
BvS is absolutely replete with cool shots, as is MoS. The problem is Snyder primarily excels at creating "cool shots" but not genuinely good films. Those screens remind me, again, of how much potential was wasted. That his movies have managed to make money is a testament to how badly DC fans yearn to see those properties on the big screen and done well, and it's maddening watching Warner continuously drop the ball.
Agreed. Swinton is easily the best thing about that film for me. She tends to be the best thing about almost every production she's involved in, in fact.
Huh?
He becomes one of the leaders of the Samurai; basically came up with the entire strategy at the end of the film that allowed them to last far longer in the final battle than they would have.
He basically becomes the main confidant of Katsumoto, who he literally helps "save" multiple times in the film. He then fights side by side with him as his right hand man, being the one to witness his death.
And at the end of the film he is the one who helps cause the emperor to come to his senses and not agree to the deal with the imperialists. Essentially helps "save" the preserving of the culture that the Samurai represented.
Not to mention how much of the rest of the film fits the other tropes involved (romancing the widow of a man he killed, learning their ways, coming to respect their culture more than his own, etc.)
Merely an observer? lol
Seductivpancakes
Member
He straight up convinces Katsumoto to escape when told to commit seppuku to regain his honor. He was contemplating seppuku again when back at his son's village, but Tom Cruise, again convinces him not to do it. He basically knows what a samurai should be doing more than actual samurai.
Yes it's based off a real event and Algren was based off a real person, but the event being the more important of the two historical facts, and the Satsumo Rebellion didn't have any white dudes with them.
I know I sound very bitter or combative, but I assure The Last Samurai is one of my favorite movies. I love it, but I also can't ignore the bits of white savor, even if it's pretty mild.
edit: you can't be an observer if you're actively fighting in the conflict.
lightskintwin
Banned
Tom Cruise's character is an active participant throughout the film. HE's the main character audiences identify with. HE get's the Japanese love interest. We watch HIS struggles and overcoming them with embracing another culture and witness HIM to get as good or better in a short amount of time than the very people who created and mastered their centuries old culture. We watch HIM fight side by side with the Samurai as equals and it is HIM that we watch kill one of the main antagonists in the film. We watch all the Samurai get killed and it is HIM that assists Katsumoto with seppuku and it is HIM that becomes the last survivor of this group.
It is Tom Cruise's character that we watch present the Emperor with the samurai's sword and It is HIM that asks the Emperor to remember the traditions the samurai died for. And lastly it is HIM that the movie ends with being concerned with finding peace in his life by going back to the Japanese village to his Japanese love interest.
You can deny it all you want but there's heavy subtext throughout the film alluding to HIS character being the Last Samurai while also alluding to the death of The Last Samurai as a cultural/political group within Japan.
You mean a movie title can have multiple meanings? Why yes it can.
Ultimately, "Nathan Algren is the character with whom the audience identifies and his journey of rebirth and re-found passion is lovely. But not to put too fine a point on it… so what? An entire culture has been run over, part of it destroyed and the person I am concerned about is the one white guy in the room who has a dazzling smile"?
Now this critique has nothing to do with the quality of the film. I love the film. It's shot beautifully, has a lot of wonderful performances, and the story is generally moving. I cried in the end just like a lot of lot people but that doesn't mean there aren't problematic things within.
The problem I have with people that talk about race in general, or racial issues, primarily with white people (Obviously not all) is there's a tendency to make arguments within vacuums, and with no context to them.
Within a vacuum, there's nothing wrong with The Last Samurai, in and of itself. However within the Historical context of White Supremacy, Colonialism and Imperialism we start to see issues, but more importantly within the context of the PREVALENCE of these types of stories being told from Hollywood arises the bigger issue and the racist origins on why we continue to frame these ethnic stories often historical settings and events from typically White male main character perspectives with heavy and active participation that the audience identifies with the most and who we see get the most character development, love interest, and empathize with the most.
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