They obviously needed to skip Dr. Strange and go straight to making that Brother Voodoo movie that we all want.
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Thoughts on the "Mighty Whitey" Trope in Fiction
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They obviously needed to skip Dr. Strange and go straight to making that Brother Voodoo movie that we all want.
Flame Lord
Member
This isn't the first time I've heard someone say Doctor Strange was guilty of that trope and I still don't understand. The school seemed to be pretty diverse, and the one in charge of it all was white, so I don't get it.
I've seen your Instagram. #Notasianenough.
Wanda/Wander
Member
You know, Frodo, life really is Dr. Strange.
This ain't a bad idea.
BronsonLee
Member
son of a...
I disagree to an extent.
The story/prophecy that Paul and his mother make use of were deliberately spread by the Bene Gesserit and while Paul is extremely successful due to his upcoming, it is certainly debatable whether his actions are any good. The reflections in the second book in particular show his failures. Storywise he is also not the first foreigner to be accepted by the Fremen, as (iirc) Pardot Kynes was an Imperial that studied Arrakis, joined the Fremen and came up with their transformation plan, which, now that I'm typing it, I realize also satisfies the trope. I have to admit it is indeed very reminiscent of the "White guy goes somewhere and becomes better than the locals" trope.
Finally you are exposed
I'd watch. Brother Voodoo is a really fun character, and a totally different side to magic.
Well the OP is using strange as the example. I'm not sure what you were expecting after reading the OP.
Croatoan
They/Them A-10 Warthog
Can something that is true be a trope though?
BronsonLee
Member
They would just have him fight Black Talon and we have to explain why a brotha is dressed like a chicken raising zombies and shit
It can help spread the trope, yes. I don't think you're understanding what I'm saying.
Spoiler Alert: Strange tries to make a move on the Ancient One, but he gets cucked by Wong
DBreakfast
Member
Dune is a subversion of the white savior story. Paul fits all the criteria for your standard mighty whitey, then when he succeeds he realizes that his victory will launch a holy war of unprecedented scale. It's a story about how white dudes fucked up the Middle East looking for oil, after all. Still, it's probably best we never get a remake, since Hollywood would likely just cut out the ending.
I agree, although Paul satisfies some of the trope (given that he becomes accepted and outskills the Fremen quickly). There's also Pardot Kynes, the guy who begins the terraforming project.
David Incorporated Esq.
Member
If you're doing a story that's immersed in a different culture, you need a way for the audience to understand and relate to the culture. Easiest way to do that is to have someone relatable be the focus of the story, and they learn about the culture along with the audience.
More about having someone from a western culture than it is about race, but the race aspect is because there are more white moviegoes than black moviegoers. And Hollywood like money.
KarneeKarnay
Member
I'm pretty sure this is a popular trope anywhere. Have you watched Anime, they spend an almost unhealthy amount of time glorifying Japanese people/culture.
It's the same for pretty much anywhere. We all like to hear stories of people overcoming great adversity and triumphing. One think the makes people like these stories even more is one where they relate to the main character.
The story of Jame Bond may not go down as well in Japan, but the story of Tokyo Ghoul will defiantly be well received.
It's the same for pretty much anywhere. We all like to hear stories of people overcoming great adversity and triumphing. One think the makes people like these stories even more is one where they relate to the main character.
The story of Jame Bond may not go down as well in Japan, but the story of Tokyo Ghoul will defiantly be well received.
Messofanego
Banned
Yeah, the "mighty whitey"-ness of Dune is kind of important. Maybe less so if you are just planning on adapting the first book only but a key point of the following books is the degradation of the Fremen and how resentful they become after their culture has been subsumed by the Atreides. The books are pretty critical of their 'heroes'.
To quote Herbert himself "Heroes are painful, superheroes are a catastrophe. The mistakes of superheroes involve too many of us in disaster."
PeskyToaster
Member
they solved that by making the ancient one a white person too.
Japan is, like, one of the most homogenous countries in the world. Pretty terrible comparison.
Straight Edge
Member
Interestingly, Paul purposely uses the Missionaria Protectiva to insinuate himself with the Fremen by claiming to be the Madhi.
Oh, totally. Take something like Mass Effect, which is the exact same trope, but replace "white people" with "Humans". There's no racial implications because I can make my character whatever skin color I'd like, but at the end of the day it's still this one person that uses our earth-based perspective and applies it to all these foreign cultures, ultimately becoming a savior figure for the entire galaxy.
The trope in itself isn't inherently bad, but in terms of hollywood and a lot of western fiction, it was born out of a specific, white-dominated society with a thirst for exploration and a growing distaste for modern society. Mighty Whitey isn't even the only negative trope to come out of this either, a lot of the stories we have about lost ancient civilizations were born out of inherently racist ideas from around the same time. The idea that the people currently living there (IE: Africans, South Americans, Asians) couldn't have been the ones to build these amazing ruins.
MistakenMobius
Member
Are u for real?
The world doesn't stop to US of A
If you take Arab slave trade for example:
http://atlantablackstar.com/2014/06...vement-of-black-people-not-taught-in-schools/
They had nothing to envy to European slave trader.
plagiarize
Banned
I thought that the film fixed this trope (which the comics were definitely guilty of back when they told his origin). The school is diverse. They protect the world and have branches all over the world.
Sure the school itself is in Katmandu and looks like a building in Katmandu might but that's easily handwaved away as that being elements of the local culture seeping in, rather than the school itself being eastern in nature.
And he thwarts a white threat, threatening the world. He doesn't just save the natives or the locals. He stops someone who has betrayed humanity to a multidimensional godlike being.
This isn't 'thank god whitey was there to save them Chinese looking wizards!'
Sure the school itself is in Katmandu and looks like a building in Katmandu might but that's easily handwaved away as that being elements of the local culture seeping in, rather than the school itself being eastern in nature.
And he thwarts a white threat, threatening the world. He doesn't just save the natives or the locals. He stops someone who has betrayed humanity to a multidimensional godlike being.
This isn't 'thank god whitey was there to save them Chinese looking wizards!'
Messofanego
Banned
African Americans, Hispanics, and Asians are the majority moviegoers actually, compared to whites.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/amph...002564-9774-11e5-b499-76cbec161973_story.html
Every year for the past half-decade, the average white American has bought a ticket to fewer films than the average black, Hispanic or Asian moviegoer, industry data shows. Though 37 percent of the U.S. population, minorities bought 46 percent of the $1.2 billion in tickets sold in the United States last year.
Minority audiences, of course, did not flood only minority films: People of color bought more than 60 percent of the U.S. tickets to last years Transformers: Age of Extinction, a $245 million blockbuster whose cast was almost exclusively white.
The power of minorities spending, particularly in movies with more diverse stars and stories, has become impossible to ignore. Furious 7, which made more than $1 billion worldwide, pocketed 62 percent of its $350 million gross in the United States from minority moviegoers. Notably, Compton, which far outpaced financial projections, counted a box-office audience that was 75 percent nonwhite.
If you try to be diverse for the sake of being diverse, its going to fail, Jeff Shell, the chairman of Universal Filmed Entertainment, the studio behind Compton, told Variety last month. The real reason to do it is that its good business. Our audience is diverse.
The power of minorities spending, particularly in movies with more diverse stars and stories, has become impossible to ignore. Furious 7, which made more than $1 billion worldwide, pocketed 62 percent of its $350 million gross in the United States from minority moviegoers. Notably, Compton, which far outpaced financial projections, counted a box-office audience that was 75 percent nonwhite.
If you try to be diverse for the sake of being diverse, its going to fail, Jeff Shell, the chairman of Universal Filmed Entertainment, the studio behind Compton, told Variety last month. The real reason to do it is that its good business. Our audience is diverse.
David Incorporated Esq.
Member
Huh, interesting. Thanks for the info!
T'challa with the fresh line up at all times
pirateluigi
Member
I don't think that disproves my thesis though, that the otherification came about as a result of slave trades and imperialism. I certainly never meant to imply that only Europeans engaged in slavery (slavery is in fact quite common among most human societies throughout history).
Count Dookkake
Member
This character is real? Not a rude joke?
I think having a story like that can make for good storytelling, but it's definitely overdone and is sometimes pretty callously dismissive in its portrayal of the demographic that it's trying to "save".
It's kind of the same thing as the whole "fuck yeah 'murica saves the world" trope, but more widespread. Fun if you do it well once or twice, but if it's common enough that you can name a trope after it, then it's probably overdone.
It's kind of the same thing as the whole "fuck yeah 'murica saves the world" trope, but more widespread. Fun if you do it well once or twice, but if it's common enough that you can name a trope after it, then it's probably overdone.
Duane Cunningham
Member
I walked away from Dr. Strange kinda feeling like he
was NOT superior to Wong and Mordo at all, he just got lucky with Dormammu and/or beat him with a bit of logical trickery, not mastery of the craft. In other words, he's kind of a poser still (albeit rapidly rising) and got lucky at the big game, but within the fiction, I'd still probably bet on one of the other guys to save the day next time. (I mean, outside the fiction we know otherwise, of course; the name of the franchise is "Dr. Strange", not "Wong".)
JonnyDBrit
Member
The Doctor Strange movie is kinda interesting in how it tries its damnedest to walk on the fine line with regards to this trope. For example, while the school is in Nepal, its disproportionately diverse for the country its seated in, and is shown to draw on mysticism from all corners of the globe. There's sanctums in America, Europe, and Eastern Asia, and the masters of them that we see, well, aren't White. Yet at the same time they did take a previously Tibetan character and make them celtic (discounting of the political arguments in this regard, I do wonder if the Ancient One is meant to be Merlin now), and the lead is a Brit playing an American who becomes a master sorcerer within the apparent span of months. Yet Strange also isn't actually
But yeah, really what makes the trope so troubling as it is, is that there's not a lot of the reverse. Immigration and integration are powerful, broadly commendable themes, but when it its used exclusively or primarily to the benefit of white males, it becomes egregious and rather insulting. Its not as if history doesn't provide plenty of opportunities in this respect either, even if they were relatively rare for their time and place - not as if the usual suspects weren't either.
With regards to Hollywood, I do wonder to what extent the commercial failures of films like the 13th Warrior may have contributed to things, having learned of it a couple of years ago. For those who don't know, the film is based on a real life traveller by the name of Ahmad ibn Fadlan, albeit sending him even farther north than he actually went so that he's smackbang in the middle of a loose adaptation of Beowulf. It also cost somewhere in the region of 150 million dollars to make back in 1999, and barely made more than 60 million at the box office. Regardless of the film's actual quality in itself, its not hard to see how producers could easily point to such things, just as they have with prior female superhero films, to justify not undertaking similar projects.
the Sorcerer Supreme at the end of the movie - just the apparent master of the New York Sanctum, as an equal counterpart to Wong.
But yeah, really what makes the trope so troubling as it is, is that there's not a lot of the reverse. Immigration and integration are powerful, broadly commendable themes, but when it its used exclusively or primarily to the benefit of white males, it becomes egregious and rather insulting. Its not as if history doesn't provide plenty of opportunities in this respect either, even if they were relatively rare for their time and place - not as if the usual suspects weren't either.
With regards to Hollywood, I do wonder to what extent the commercial failures of films like the 13th Warrior may have contributed to things, having learned of it a couple of years ago. For those who don't know, the film is based on a real life traveller by the name of Ahmad ibn Fadlan, albeit sending him even farther north than he actually went so that he's smackbang in the middle of a loose adaptation of Beowulf. It also cost somewhere in the region of 150 million dollars to make back in 1999, and barely made more than 60 million at the box office. Regardless of the film's actual quality in itself, its not hard to see how producers could easily point to such things, just as they have with prior female superhero films, to justify not undertaking similar projects.
Hypemaster
Member
Always on point, they know.
Yep, but he is treated as a joke nowadays. He peaked with resurrecting his own X-men team, which oddly enough was made up of dead X-men villains.
The X-humed(get it?)
Monocle
Member
Clearly it's more of a story about how White Liberal Hollywood Elitist Tilda Swinton is wiser and stronger and better than all Asians. Indeed, the character of Dr. Strange exists only to take the story to a point where it can be dropped at her Caucasian feet so that the mockery of the original version of The Ancient One can commence.
Angelus Errare
Banned
Japan is like 99% Japanese. Multicultural/melting pot-ism has never been a tenant on which Japan's society was built upon.
I am trying
yanipheonu
Member
Being aware of tropes regarding race =/= using said tropes is racism
I thought it was fine in Doctor Strange. The Ancient One is only passively identified as Celtic and certainly doesn't fixate on race given the whole multiverse thing. She's only one of a set of master sorcerers as well.
I'd honestly say calling the Ancient One as some awful racist trope as a possible but shallow reading.
I thought it was fine in Doctor Strange. The Ancient One is only passively identified as Celtic and certainly doesn't fixate on race given the whole multiverse thing. She's only one of a set of master sorcerers as well.
I'd honestly say calling the Ancient One as some awful racist trope as a possible but shallow reading.
Doctor Strange is a bad example of this. There's nothing even really Buddhist about the magic school except that it's in Nepal. The top dog is a Celtic lady and Strange's main mentor is a black dude. And the bad guy performs his Evil Ritual in a cathedral.
They don't even teach Strange to meditate or anything. They make a little joke about that not being necessary. I guess they like kinda do tai chi?
They don't even teach Strange to meditate or anything. They make a little joke about that not being necessary. I guess they like kinda do tai chi?
SwiftDeath
Member
The whitewashing of the Ancient One seems like a far more glaring problem imo
Mighty Whitey trope is an issue that persists but seems less a problem in Dr Strange considering the circumstances
Mighty Whitey trope is an issue that persists but seems less a problem in Dr Strange considering the circumstances
User 73706
Banned
more people of color in the world than not b
you don't throw a brick at a fish tank and then say the glass isn't broken because the water isn't
It's a self perpetuating cycle. It also bleeds into race relations and all the way over into preferences as well. Hollywood isn't the only reason white is considered ideal/right/superior, but it proudly shoulders a lot of the responsibility.
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