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[Threat Interactive] 3X FPS in Unreal Engine 5 Without Upscaling, Insults Addressed
- Thread starter Vick
- Start date
diffusionx
Gold Member
So not only are devs badly using Unreal Engine and shipping games with horrible performance, but they are also total degenerates on Discord and Reddit and insult people trying to help out? Checks out on both ends.
Astray
Member
That's basically all the engines out there.
WTF is this guy smoking and why is trying to become an authority on game dev?
Sethbacca
Member
He comes across as pompous and insufferable while casting himself as a pariah. That's probably more the reason that nobody wants to deal with him anywhere than anything else. I mean, he's technically right, but most of us that aren't even into gamedev already knew this anyway.
Astray
Member
He's clearly trying to grift his way into being a guru on technical game dev stuff, but he clearly has no understanding of anything.
You'll see a lot of these types pop up, especially with how YouTube and Twitter monetization is working currently.
Hugare
Member
Everytime this channel comes up:
Dude looks like he just graduated from college and wants to lecture experienced devs on how to make games
Even if what he is saying is correct, why should I care when he made no real game in his life?
Right now he is just getting atention from lecturing others instead of doing his own stuff
Dude looks like he just graduated from college and wants to lecture experienced devs on how to make games
Even if what he is saying is correct, why should I care when he made no real game in his life?
Right now he is just getting atention from lecturing others instead of doing his own stuff
Sethbacca
Member
"THEY" are trying to silence me. Stop them by contributing just $5/month to my patreon!!
Fucking outrage culture man
proandrad
Member
Nah, I like what he’s saying so I’ll keep on listening. If devs want him to shut up they should stop putting out shitty technical products. Every time when of these studios puts out a shitty UE5 game that looks half a generation worst than uncharted 4 they look like clowns.
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SaturnSaturn
Member
Anyone thats okay with the current state of games, and on top of that is DEFENDING modern developers who produce shit that cant even run at NATIVE 1080p60fps anymore should be checked into a insane asylum.
I think gaming is the only hobby where the majority of customers are such meek little sheeps that wont demand quality, no one in the world would accept sub par products and service in a retail store for example, the store would go out of buisness.
Most people get up in arms over the 4k releases on movies that have used AI for upscalling and looks like shit, but apperantly to be critical of game developers is to much, i can play games that came out 10 years ago that looks better than modern games and runs on a fucking potato. It's insane how much this hobby has degraded
I think gaming is the only hobby where the majority of customers are such meek little sheeps that wont demand quality, no one in the world would accept sub par products and service in a retail store for example, the store would go out of buisness.
Most people get up in arms over the 4k releases on movies that have used AI for upscalling and looks like shit, but apperantly to be critical of game developers is to much, i can play games that came out 10 years ago that looks better than modern games and runs on a fucking potato. It's insane how much this hobby has degraded
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Herr Edgy
Member
I don't believe he is incompetent, not at all, but he is channeling his potential in an extremely misguided direction.
I won't speak on the actual graphics programming aspects of his videos as I am not a graphics programmer, but his lack of professional experience is showing.
What he did to 'optimize' the scene is honestly just gamer bait.
The new tech he hates allowed the scene to be like it was. All he did was readjust it to regular tech that most game devs know like it's their backpocket. He also stripped some visual features like the ultra dynamic sky.
UDS vs. the default sky sphere that UE ships with are like night and day. UDS has a bunch of high quality weather settings and is dynamic, the default sky sphere is basic and not well suited if you need time of day functionality.
Obviously that scene didn't really need UDS if you are going to be indoors, or rather, it's a low ROI perf-wise, so I think it's totally valid to remove it in favor of the default sky sphere when you are inside.
But that's not 'optimizing' the perf, that's stripping features that cost performance. If you do need that feature, what he did is not an option.
For devs it used to be common knowledge that you can't have too many overlapping lights. The scene had a shit ton of them because Mega Lights *allows* for that. Without Mega Lights or Nanite, that scene was insanity. Because of these features, it isn't anymore. Of course shrinking the light radii is something you do when you don't use Mega Lights.
Another aspect that he completely fails to grasp is that with new tech new opportunities emerge over time. He probably would also hold the opinion that we don't need raytracing because previous lighting solutions that were faking it worked just fine and it cost less perf. But should that be the future of gaming tech? Just sticking to old techniques that faked it, were inflexible, or slowed down developer iteration?
I do think that forcing usage of temporal based AA is wrong, and I agree with him there, but he sees things from a very limited perspective that is not at all aligned with real requirements or where they are heading. Any dev can attest to how shitty workflows were around static lighting that needs hours to be built but is cheap at runtime.
I won't speak on the actual graphics programming aspects of his videos as I am not a graphics programmer, but his lack of professional experience is showing.
What he did to 'optimize' the scene is honestly just gamer bait.
The new tech he hates allowed the scene to be like it was. All he did was readjust it to regular tech that most game devs know like it's their backpocket. He also stripped some visual features like the ultra dynamic sky.
UDS vs. the default sky sphere that UE ships with are like night and day. UDS has a bunch of high quality weather settings and is dynamic, the default sky sphere is basic and not well suited if you need time of day functionality.
Obviously that scene didn't really need UDS if you are going to be indoors, or rather, it's a low ROI perf-wise, so I think it's totally valid to remove it in favor of the default sky sphere when you are inside.
But that's not 'optimizing' the perf, that's stripping features that cost performance. If you do need that feature, what he did is not an option.
For devs it used to be common knowledge that you can't have too many overlapping lights. The scene had a shit ton of them because Mega Lights *allows* for that. Without Mega Lights or Nanite, that scene was insanity. Because of these features, it isn't anymore. Of course shrinking the light radii is something you do when you don't use Mega Lights.
Another aspect that he completely fails to grasp is that with new tech new opportunities emerge over time. He probably would also hold the opinion that we don't need raytracing because previous lighting solutions that were faking it worked just fine and it cost less perf. But should that be the future of gaming tech? Just sticking to old techniques that faked it, were inflexible, or slowed down developer iteration?
I do think that forcing usage of temporal based AA is wrong, and I agree with him there, but he sees things from a very limited perspective that is not at all aligned with real requirements or where they are heading. Any dev can attest to how shitty workflows were around static lighting that needs hours to be built but is cheap at runtime.
Black_Stride
do not tempt fate do not contrain Wonder Woman's thighs do not do not
Never heard of this studio.
But yeah he comes off really pompous.
Taking apart other peoples games without actually showing his own game..........atleast have something to show off if you are gonna say devs arent being efficient.
His website is a dot wordpress?
His supposedly modified TAA seems too good to be true, better than DLSS?
Ill experiment with it, do I have any Unreal Engine 4 games installed?
Here are the commands both UE4 developers and gamers can use with many UE4 titles.
- r.TemporalAA.Algorithm 0
- r.TemporalAA.HistoryScreenPercentage 200
- r.TemporalAA.Upsampling 1
- r.TemporalAACatmullRom 0
- r.TemporalAAFilterSize 0.09
- r.TemporalAASamples 2 (MSAA x2)
- r.TemporalAACurrentFrameWeight 0.6
If it actually works ill be shocked.
diffusionx
Gold Member
if the people working on UE5 are so great then why does virtually every UE5 game coming out look and run like total shit? Why does every game have massive issues on PC at launch? Why can't devs put together a proper fucking PS5 Pro patch?
I am not sure devs realize just how dissatisfied people are with their output these days on all levels (content, tech, performance, etc.) and worst of all they seem more interested in hunkering down, blaming other people including customers for when things go badly, and now they are casting themselves as victims because of all the layoffs.
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Astray
Member
Just don't forget to like share subscribe and give money to his patreon!
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Guilty_AI
Member
All he did makes perfect sense. Why have some ultra dynamic sky hogging up resources in a scene where said sky doesn't even appear? Whats wrong with reverting back to older techniques if its barely gona make a dent on how the scene looks? Why have such a large radius for lights that can't even be seen? On the topic of ray tracing since you brought it up, just why use it in a scene where baked lighting will suffice?
No matter how technically impressive all of this new tech is, at the end of the day, it hardly matters to the end product.
Herr Edgy
Member
Question to you: If we suck so bad, why does Fortnite run and look great for the most part across so many devices?
I am also a gamer so I totally get the frustration with lots of modern games. But trust me that this problem is far more complex than just "uhhh devs lazy and stupid". That just makes you seem pathetic.
StereoVsn
Gold Member
Hmm… I can make my storage room in the basement into a studio. Business idea is a go!"THEY" are trying to silence me. Stop them by contributing just $5/month to my patreon!!
Fucking outrage culture man
“The Swamp is attacking. Only by subscribing to StereoVSN YouTube channel you will enable us to fight back!”
Now, here is the biggest question. How can I get on Joe Rogan?
Edit: I do believe that devs for the most part aren’t even bothering to optimize anymore though. Some of his examples are valid and it’s ok to present criticism without actually launching a game. Otherwise are movie critics expected to have had successful cinema releases or epicures expected to be Michelin chefs?
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diffusionx
Gold Member
Fortnite? The game by the people who make the engine? if anything this proves my point, the tech is usable but the huge and rapidly expanding world of Unreal engine licensees can't or aren't able to use it.
I didn't call them lazy and stupid. I said there are major issues with what is going on and the devs seem to go into defensive mode and act like nothing wrong and they are the victims instead of fixing it. Which you are doing here.
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Gaiff
SBI’s Resident Gaslighter
Is there a single AA or AAA UE5 game that looks worse than Uncharted 4? Ark Survival Ascend perhaps?
Sentenza
Member
When I argued months ago that technical expertise is a dying skill in the PROFESSIONAL game development scene of today and that over-reliance on the "ready-to-use" tools of Unreal Engine are a strong contributing factor, this is the type of stuff I was referring to.
The "pompous" and extremely nerdy types are the ones that built the backbone of the gaming industry, even if everyone now seems to want to get rid of them.
The "pompous" and extremely nerdy types are the ones that built the backbone of the gaming industry, even if everyone now seems to want to get rid of them.
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Herr Edgy
Member
All he did makes perfect sense if you just want to disregard new tech and its opportunities.
I said myself that replacing UDS here is perfectly valid, for this scene, unchanged. But have you considered once what happens if like in a real game, things change and have dynamic requirements? What if a character walks through here with a torch? What if there are windows that let outside light through?
What if you can exit the building? What he did to 'optimize' this scene was just basic as hell, and what gamers fail to understand is that more experienced devs come to conclusions extrapolating from what they see. It's not interesting to look at a scene that doesn't need dynamic lights, remove the dynamic lights and say 'see, awesome, optimized'. We extrapolate to the aforementioned cases.
If your game absolutely doesn't need any kind of dynamic light because you don't have a moving sun, you don't have movable ingame light sources like torches or spells, it's wholly indoors and static lighting is all you need, yes, you don't need a setup like in the scene in the video. I agree. But that's not a realistic use case of the tech in question.
The premise is faulty to begin with as no dev that doesn't need this kind of dynamic setup would be using this kind of dynamic setup. That's the issue I have with this 'optimization' video. I could optimize any game for you by remaking your game into pong with no lights, but surely that can't be the goal here?
To clarify:
The scene in question is an extremely bad example in the first place.
If you asked this guy to 'optimize' the Mega Lights demo that Epic Games presented while keeping visuals intact (if it was publically available), he couldn't. And that's the point.
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StereoVsn
Gold Member
Interesting or not what we currently are getting are horribly optimized games often with compromised image quality due to reliance on FSR/DLSS.
Frankly the “future opportunity” is irrelevant if what is currently peddled is crap but for very few exceptions. Majority of Unreal games just don’t run well and that goes double for PC.
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Vick
Gold Member
Sethbacca
Member
Nobody wants to get rid of them. They just don't make great communicators on average, so they end up in technical roles and not customer facing ones. Realistically, having a successful product is as much about presentation and communication as it is technical merit more often than not.
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proandrad
Member
On console there isn’t a single UE5 game that looks better than uncharted 4, imo of course.
Guilty_AI
Member
Too many ifs, and if it doesn't? And when it doesn't why do they keep doing this shit? Why do they use ray-tracing or dynamic lights in completely static scenes? Why model every single piece of the floor tiles when there are more efficient techniques that'll produce the same effect? All you're doing is throwing out a whole bunch of "what ifs" that aren't even the case most of the time.
diffusionx
Gold Member
Noooooooooo you have to model the teeth of the people in your city building sim because... YOU JUST DO, OKAY?!?
Vick
Gold Member
Fixed, to avoid endless derails.
Gaiff
SBI’s Resident Gaslighter
Don’t Silent Hill 2, Lords of the Fallen, and Black Myth Wukong look really good in their 30fps mode on consoles? In 60fps, maybe not because the games are often gutted by bad IQ and other sacrifices, but 30fps as far as I’m aware looks very good.
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tkscz
Member
When professional developers were confused on how Nintendo got Tears of the Kingdom's physic engine running as well as it does on the Switch, I knew something was off. Yes, this guy comes off as a jack-ass, but so does Shigeru Miyamoto, so does John Carmack, you can name a lot of early developers who pushed envelopes that also pushed a lot of buttons. He made good points, and we should discuss it rather than immediately ignoring this just to bash the guy who brought it up.
Vick
Gold Member
Those issues are all present in 30fps modes as well, along with plenty of others plaguing these games presentation entirely. Silent Hill 2 especially is bordeline broken no matter the mode. Time-Stamped:
Not to mention, the huge lighting discrepancies between Fidelity and Performance mode would be nowhere to be seen in a competently developed, static time of day game.
Herr Edgy
Member
I didn't say you did explicitly, but what do you think happens when you talk about a problem you have with game graphics and in the same breath act like the same people who make your games, who then get their livelihoods ruined, don't get to complain?
I'm not saying offer fake sympathy for them, they are just workers to you providing goods you are interested in, but please, please make the connection that what is happening in the industry directly affects you as a gamer.
It's not two separate worlds, it's just one.
As for the bolded part, I agree. But for reasons other than the typical ones you see on here. The strategy that Epic Games is following is lowering the bar to entry. More and more devs get to use Unreal Engine. This includes people that are incapable of doing what Epic is doing with Fortnite.
That's normal and expected. The wrong conclusion a lot of people here are drawing is that Unreal Engine *causes this*. No. If Unreal Engine was still a non-public engine that you get access to by paying large amounts of money, you'd see fewer games with performance problems.
But you'd be seeing less games overall, also. Your perception of Unreal would be better despite it being the same thing. Of course, you can argue you'd be fine with less games to play, rather than having more games that don't work great all the time. That's your right. But I don't think that's what people want either.
Another problem in the dev <-> gamer space is the idea that devs have less of a clue than the gamers complaining.
That doesn't make complaints invalid in itself - I'm not a fan of TAA personally, but it's easy to dismiss people who aren't open to conversation, and when gamers act like know-it-alls while, like you did, in the same breath dismiss layoff problems in the industry, why would they try to talk to you and take you seriously?
It's about tone and basic decency. It's easy to point out flaws, but when you don't understand the topic, you can't point to the positives. For example, games graphics could steer into a non-upscale, clear image quality direction. Let's say we use MSAA. Are you fine with the next Spider Man game looking like a 2016 game?
Are you fine with taking a step back and saying 'I'm fine with worse graphics in the new game as long as the image quality is better'? Less high rez textures, less accurate reflections, less draw distance etc.?
Regardless of whether you would want this or not, do you in earnest believe that there wouldn't be another Threat Interactive guy pointing out how "it's unacceptable that image quality has improved but at what cost"?
proandrad
Member
I judge games by how good they look in motion and 30fps is a big visual downgrade.
Herr Edgy
Member
But they are the case most of the time because most games are interactive and dynamic by nature.
I already answered the case of *what if your game still doesn't need all this*, well the answer is, you don't use a dynamic setup that costs perf? Is that not obvious?
64bitmodels
Reverse groomer.
Yeah this is why I couldn't care about the "he hasn't made a game yet" criticism.
So what? He seems to be doing a better job of properly optimizing video games than all the folks working in the big budget studios, and he's the only developer out there willing to call out the fact that modern games have 2018 visuals while requiring 2027 hardware. 99% of reviewers out there have never made a damn game. Asmongold hasn't touched any game development software but most here would side with him over the supposed "experienced, game making" devs because they've got dyed hair.
A lot of the criticism towards him here just seems like regular old GAF Youtube/Zoomer hate when he's out here showing us the light for modern game optimization and to get what we actually wanted out of 9th gen hardware.
Cartoon game with super simple visuals made by the developers of the engine looks and runs great on most devices? Color me shocked! What else is new, modern hardware being able to run Super Mario 64 at 120fps?
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Herr Edgy
Member
If you think Fortnite graphics are simple I've got a bridge to sell you
Guilty_AI
Member
Interactive and dynamic how? There's a huge difference between interactive "you can walk around the floor of this building", and interactive "you can fly and blow everything here up and make holes on the wall". In the later scenario using all this tech would make sense, except its rarely ever the case and the former is the much more common one.
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64bitmodels
Reverse groomer.
Fortnite's artstyle is in no way indicative of the types of games people want to make with Unreal Engine. Those types of projects go to Godot or Unity.
Give me a realistic/detailed UE5 game that can compete with.... let's say, Doom Eternal when it comes to optimization and ease to run.
AeonGaidenRaiden
Member
So basically Nintendo fans.
rofif
Can’t Git Gud
And the ue5 features like nanite are fundamentally wrong idea to display 3d graphics.
he shows in previous video that nanite causes shimmering at a distance which needs to be softened with temporal upscaling... compared to just flat texture mipmaps which are faaaar cheaper and look better at a distance.
anyway - even AI is more sympathetic than this smug dude
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64bitmodels
Reverse groomer.
many AAA UE5 games are interactive and dynamic in the same way a "3d tour" of a house on Zillow is interactive and dynamic
StereoVsn
Gold Member
Or say Cyberpunk even. I have yet to see Unreal game that scales or has visual output as good as Cyberpunk for Open World game.
Herr Edgy
Member
I gave multiple normal scenarios of regular games. A guy walking in there with a torch, or light coming in from outside, or the player character walking out of the building in real time, are not novel and niche concepts rarely encountered in games.
Why would we be talking about that? Seriously asking. What's the connection? I get that you want to point to the fact that Doom Eternal runs very well and there are many games in UE5 that don't run as well.
Why is that a shock? They are on their own proprietary engine with their own internal engine devs. They control every facet of it, and for very specific titles at that. How many games do you know across genres that were made by IdTech7 licensees and that run extremely well?
Circling back to the 'Would you rather have fewer games all around if that meant the available ones would run better?'
If we moved back to a world in which every games studio needs to create their engine, often for a specific game, we'd probably have better looking and performing games overall. And a fraction of them, too!
Guilty_AI
Member
None of which even fit the scene in question, at most walking out of the building, but with that size it should be possible to make the optimizations on the video.
P:axMagellanic
Member
He might not call them lazy or talentless, but I fucking will.
LAZY cunts, and your games and engine are shit. Tim Cain at obsidian made a video where he discussed dealing with these jobsworths on Outer Worlds.
64bitmodels
Reverse groomer.
Who said for a specific game? just make an in-house optimized engine, stick with it, and upgrade it. Deprecate it when necessary and make a new one when needed.
The only reason we don't get stuff like that in gaming these days is because modern studio/dev culture has become so accelerated, complacent and cost-cutting that we can't even afford to have different engines for different devs anymore. Everything's all outsourced to like 5 pre-made engines across the entire industry (Unreal Engine, Unity, Godot, Game Maker, RPGMaker) with all their own quirks, not even suited for the types of games devs want to make despite shouldering the burden of carrying the entire industry on their back (UE being complete ass for open worlds in a time where everyone and their mom are making them, for instance)
diffusionx
Gold Member
So, if the problem isn't Unreal Engine per se, but what is being done with it, then all that means is that the devs really do need to get their shit together. Which means that there needs to be more discussion and more videos on topics like this, so devs can make their games actually look and run well.
What I have seen in public discourse is that game devs will instinctively rush to defend their shit performance games, and then claim that anyone who complains or wonders why it is so horribly unoptimized (like the teeth in Cities Skyline 2) just doens't know anything. At some point you get tired of hearing it, and this circling the wagons isn't helping anyone, includding them, because when their shit running game gets released it is going to get destroyed.
Getting laid off sucks, but game devs are nto some perspecuted minority and too many of them online seem to carry this mindset and it's not helping.
it's interesting you mention Spiderman here, as in 2018 that game looked AMAZING on a base PS4 and ran great, on PS4 Pro it looked and ran even better, and on PS5 Pro, Spiderman 2 is an amazing looking game with great 60fps performance and ray tracing. So, it sounds like on some level Insomniac knows what they are doing. Whereas you see these UE games that run like garbage, that stutter on a 4090, and that quite frankly don't look nearly as good as Spiderman 2 on a base PS5 let alone a Pro. I have never heard anyone complain about Spiderman's graphics or performance.
The same convo is going on around now with Indy which leans heavily on RT and stuff and also runs very good. It, too, is not an Unreal Engine game. it seems like there is an advantage of being a dev with an in-house engine that knows how it works and how to optimize around it. As for 2016 looking games, I mean... Helldivers 2 runs on a literally discontinued engine, does actually look like a 2016 game in many ways... and is one of the most popular games of the year.
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