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[YaBish]

And that's fine. He's easily better than the alternative. We just don't need to call him a "true progressive," just like we never called Ben Nelson or Bob Kerrey true progressives. Or Joe Manchin, if we're talking about conservative anti-choice Democrats still in office.

Amen. We also need to be able to whip these "Dixiecrat" votes when it comes time to as well, something the Dems could stand to work on

 

[Bonen no Max'd]

Exactly. Everyone's like "oh this row illustrates everything wrong with the democrats lolz (SHILLARY EMAILZZZ)" but this actually illustrates the power and strength of the Democratic base - through grassroots activism and base energy, they're getting candidates like Mello and Perriello to tow the pro-choice policy line. I don't see how that's anything other than a good thing if you care about "electing progressives."

This is something I wholeheartedly agree with.

 

[whyamihere]

Bernie's initial comment on Ossoff was very stupid and he got rightful shit for it.

Bernie's walkback and endorsement of Ossoff was appropriate and also very good.

We probably need to be okay with having pro-gun Democrats in order to win back the House and do better with rural voters. Less sure about pro-life Democrats. Being pro-choice is also about economic rights for poor women, believe it or not!

We also need to be okay with some more corporate-aligned Democrats to win back suburban seats like Ossoff's.

The American party system allows for huge parties with sometimes competing rationals that might not exist in a multiparty system, and that's just something we should all be okay with.

Vote in primaries.

 

[jtb]

You're free to keep saying this all day, and you will attain no greater an understanding of the mentality of the pro-life opposition. It has zero to do with economics. It's religion and morality.

Of course that's not how the right sees the issue. I've poured hundreds of hours volunteering and raised thousands of dollars for pro-life organizations across the country. I can assure you, I know what the "Pro-Life mentality" is, so you can spare the condescension.

This isn't about the right. This is about Bernie. Bernie doesn't get to claim to be an economic progressive and not care about one of the most, if not the single most, immediate, economic progressive issue facing Americans today.

What was one of the single largest hurdles to universal healthcare in America? Unequal access and costs to healthcare between men and women; you think reproductive services aren't a huge reason why women's healthcare costs are significantly higher than men's? What prevents women from achieving wage parity with men? A lack of access to birth control and abortion services, coupled with childcare policies that are fit for the fucking eighteenth century.

How did Bernie change the conversation on universal healthcare and the minimum wage? By having the conversation on his terms. There is no upside to solely having this debate solely on Fox News and Pat Buchanan's terms. Certainly not for a fucking self-proclaimed socialist like Bernie!

 

[Tinfoilhatsron]

God forbid someone tries to accommodate more then one point of view or bridge the divide in our country.

You know that Republican congressmen who switched when Democrats supported a bill he wrote?

That Republican is like some of the members on this forum, just switch Democrats with Bernie.

God forbid he tow the party line now. Like did I read this article wrong? Someone tell me.

 

[Emerson]

Of course that's not how the right sees the issue. I've poured hundreds of hours volunteering and raised thousands of dollars for pro-life organizations across the country. I can assure you, I know what the "Pro-Life mentality" is, so you can spare the condescension.

This isn't about the right. This is about Bernie. Bernie doesn't get to claim to be an economic progressive and not care about one of the most, if not the single most, immediate, economic progressive issue facing Americans today.

What was one of the single largest hurdles to universal healthcare in America? Unequal access and costs to healthcare between men and women; you think reproductive services aren't a huge reason why women's healthcare costs are significantly higher than men's? What prevents women from achieving wage parity with men? A lack of access to birth control and abortion services, coupled with childcare policies that are fit for the fucking eighteenth century.

How did Bernie change the conversation on universal healthcare and the minimum wage? By having the conversation on his terms. There is no upside to solely having this debate solely on Fox News and Pat Buchanan's terms. Certainly not for a fucking self-proclaimed socialist like Bernie!

Why would pro-life Democrats be any different? That is my point. Their beliefs originate from the exact same place.

You aren't going to convince a generally left-leaning Catholic that something they consider to be murder is an economic issue. At best you will whip them into submission and toeing the party line for the benefit of their other issues.

 

[jWILL253]

How's that purity test going for some of y'all?

 

[TheLaughingStock]

What happened to all your talk about how terrible you thought purity tests are for the party? This sounds very purity testy of you.

Purity tests for me. No purity tests for you. Just the way it is.

 

[1.21Gigawatts]

Abortion and reproductive rights (birth control) are economic issues. If anyone should be taking up this charge, it's Bernie.

Why is he shying away? Maybe because it's not an opportunity for him to demagogue for easy political points?

Because you aren't going to convince people who base their opinion on their religious believes, with rational arguments.
Its pointless.
And as long as the party position is unaffected its a pragmatic compromise to accept these positions in the democratic party.

 

[jtb]

Why would pro-life Democrats be any different? That is my point. Their beliefs originate from the exact same place.

You aren't going to convince a generally left-leaning Catholic that something they consider to be murder is an economic issue. At best you will whip them into submission and toeing the party line for the benefit of their other issues.

Bernie's not a pro-life Democrat. I'm not saying Tim Kaine or Joe Biden should start defending abortion on economically populist grounds (though, I will note, they have absolutely no problem defending pro-choice policies and towing the party line). I'm asking Bernie too.

Like I said, Bernie can't have it both ways, not when abortion is an issue that should be in his wheelhouse so clearly. (And, as I also mentioned, to his credit: Bernie has a great record on reproductive rights. Nearly flawless, sans embarrassing Planned Parenthood flub)

What does Bernie want to be? The white working class whisperer, flirting occasionally with Trumpish demogagery? Or the pure, progressive hero? (I will note that, as a progressive, I find the latter infinitely preferable to the former) Because I think what we're increasingly finding post-election is that they're not one and the same.

 

[Karsticles]

why

Because if someone agrees with you on 9/10 issues, you don't tell them to fuck off and get out of your party.

 

[Ziltoidia 9]

Bernie is the most popular politician in the country, so something eventually is going to have to give. Either the DNC is going to have to move closer to him or he is going to just take everyone with him. The DNC likes to parade Bernie around and use him for star appeal yet so much of the party establishment and hardliners STILL tries to minimize/sabotage his image because he wants to get money out of politics, which of course, threatens their business.

 

[Carpe Libertatem]

Bernie is the most popular politician in the country, so something eventually is going to have to give. Either the DNC is going to have to move closer to him or he is going to just take everyone with him. The DNC likes to parade Bernie around and use him for star appeal yet so much of the party establishment and hardliners STILL tries to minimize/sabotage his image because he wants to get money out of politics, which of course, threatens their business.

Who's sabotaging his image? This is all his own doing! And he could avoid it easily.

 

[Zok310]

YEah, god forbids we have a pro life supporter in the democratic party

 

[jtb]

Bernie is the most popular politician in the country, so something eventually is going to have to give. Either the DNC is going to have to move closer to him or he is going to just take everyone with him. The DNC likes to parade Bernie around and use him for star appeal yet so much of the party establishment and hardliners STILL tries to minimize/sabotage his image because he wants to get money out of politics, which of course, threatens their business.

yes, so much money in Big Abortion. get the fuck outta here

maybe, just maybe, he made a misstep here. and he quickly owned up to it.

 

[Mammoth Jones]

Thread title is misleading.

Here is Sanders quote:

"I have a 100 percent lifetime pro-choice voting record, but if we are going to become a 50-state party, if you’re going to go to Omaha, Nebraska, which has a Republican governor, two Republican senators, all Republican Congress people, Republican legislature, you know what?” he continued. “If you have a rally in which you have the labor movement, and the environmentalists, and Native Americans, and the African American community, and the Latino community coming together, saying, ‘We want this guy to become our next mayor,’ should I reject going there to Omaha? I don’t think so.”

Seems like the article is actually about something Dick Durbin said but Sanders gets more clicks so they threw him in there.

Good. Tired of purity tests when the Democrats need to fucking win. I don't want a defacto one party system because dems need everyone to be absolutely flawless on every issue.

Because if someone agrees with you on 9/10 issues, you don't tell them to fuck off and get out of your party.

This. The hell lol. Welcome to reality.

 

[Dude Abides]

Is Mello good on Bernie's pet issues? Like does he want to raise taxes and expand public preschool in Omaha or something?

 

[1.21Gigawatts]

What does Bernie want to be?

He wants to bring northern European style social democracy to the US.

Obviously, this is an impossible task.
For one, the democratic lacks any and every expertise when it comes to social democracy.
And Bernie, too.
His proposals would have been ripped to shreds by any somewhat decent European social democrat. They would've never worked in the US.
But neither the Clinton campaign, nor the media, nor the republicans were able to point out the flaws in Sanders' plans, because they are all clueless.

I just hope Sanders manages to spread the general idea of social democracy in the US. It will then be up to actual experts to implement social democratic policies.

I honestly believe that a social democracy would improve a majority of social issues like racism, sexism, income inequality etc. without specifically setting out to do that.

 

[jtb]

Because if someone agrees with you on 9/10 issues, you don't tell them to fuck off and get out of your party.

Counterpoint: This is how we ended up with Jim Crow for a hundred years, and the progressive New Deal coalition coincidentally helped enforce de facto segregation while it was in power.

I don't even disagree. But the idea that we shouldn't have inalienable rights runs counter to many of our country's greatest moral legislative triumphs (i.e. Civil Rights) and the whole point of having a political party.

He wants to bring northern European style social democracy to the US.

Obviously, this is an impossible task.
For one, the democratic lacks any and every expertise when it comes to social democracy.
And Bernie, too.
His proposals would have been ripped to shreds by any somewhat decent European social democrat. They would've never worked in the US.
But neither the Clinton campaign, nor the media, nor the republicans were able to point out the flaws in Sanders' plans, because they are all clueless.

I just hope Sanders manages to spread the general idea of social democracy in the US. It will then be up to actual experts to implement social democratic policies.

I honestly believe that a social democracy would improve a majority of social issues like racism, sexism, income inequality etc. without specifically setting out to do that.

But is it the chicken or the egg? In the case of sexism and institutional barriers to women's economic success, a progressive like Bernie cannot ignore the elephant in the room that is reproductive rights and just magically expect that a rising tide will lift all boats when, for example, raising the minimum wage will not change the fact that women have vaginas.

(Again, what I find so frustrating about this is that it directly supports his pet issues - namely, universal healthcare! Nobody benefits more from universal healthcare than women and women's economic prospects!)

 

[old manatee]

Is Mello good on Bernie's pet issues? Like does he want to raise taxes and expand public preschool in Omaha or something?

Maybe, and this is just wild speculation on my part, the Republican candidate is worse.

 

[Mammoth Jones]

Counterpoint: This is how we ended up with Jim Crow for a hundred years, and the progressive New Deal coalition coincidentally helped enforce de facto segregation while it was in power.

"We got segregation because we compromised. The takeaway is to never comprise ever on anything!"

See how that's silly? Obviously you don't go back to segregation but the notion that that's the path Sanders would be on due to this type of compromise is silly and not worth serious discussion.

Protip: we still have segregation in many parts of the US in many facets of society. The work ain't done. Question is do Democrats get closer to doing that work by compromising with some members of their party and coming together or saying Fuck that on principle and continuing to hand Republicans election wins?

 

[Dude Abides]

Maybe, and this is just wild speculation on my part, the Republican candidate is worse.

I don't understand why you thought that was responsive to my question.

 

[TheSchwab_7]

Omaha, Nebraska in the news related to the Democratic Party? What a time to be alive.

But on topic, I'm fine with Mello being anti abortion peronsally, but what the people want is more important.

 

[Carpe Libertatem]

Maybe, and this is just wild speculation on my part, the Republican candidate is worse.

Pretty sure he also endorsed Mello during the primary when there were other candidates

 

[1.21Gigawatts]

But is it the chicken or the egg? In the case of sexism and institutional barriers to women's economic success, a progressive like Bernie cannot ignore the elephant in the room that is reproductive rights and just magically expect that a rising tide will lift all boats when, for example, raising the minimum wage will not change the fact that women have vaginas.

(Again, what I find so frustrating about this is that it directly supports his pet issues - namely, universal healthcare! Nobody benefits more from universal healthcare than women and women's economic prospects!)

I think you are overestimating the effect of nationwide legalization of abortion.

 

[jtb]

"We got segregation because we compromised. The takeaway is to never comprise ever on anything!"

See how that's silly? Obviously you don't go back to segregation but the notion that that's the path Sanders would be on due to this type of compromise is silly and not worth serious discussion.

Protip: we still have segregation in many parts of the US in many facets of society. The work ain't done. Question is do Democrats get closer to doing that work by compromising with some members of their party and coming together or saying Fuck that on principle and continuing to hand Republicans election wins?

Look, I don't even disagree. Of course you compromise. Purity tests are dumb!

But the whole point of having a party is because, at some point, you have core, inalienable values as a party that a coalition of people believe in. The values drive the coalition, not the other way around.

Women and people of color are the base of the Democratic party because of the values the party holds. Abandon them at your peril.

 

[jtb]

(can you tell this issue animates me?)

I think you are overestimating the effect of nationwide legalization of abortion.

I'm really, really not. Having a child is, for many women, the single largest financial investment they will ever make in their lives. Like $250k expensive. (College debt ain't got shit on reproductive rights.) To say nothing of putting your career on hold, in some cases, in jeopardy to give birth - let alone raise the child. Or the fact that, until the ACA, every woman in America had to pay higher insurance premiums simply because of the fact that they have a vagina.

I get that as males (assuming! but... you know...) it's hard to conceptualize these costs, because we take them for granted and they're hidden because they're so institutionalized. But they exist and they're hiding in plain sight. Like I said, this should be Bernie's bread and butter!

also, we can't forget: Roe v Wade is already the law of the land. we're defending the law. progressives shouldn't hide and cower in fear.

 

[O Canada Our Home and Native Land]

I'm really, really not. Having a child is, for many women, the single largest financial investment they will ever make in their lives. Like $250k expensive. (College debt ain't got shit on reproductive rights.) To say nothing of putting your career on hold, in some cases, in jeopardy to give birth - let alone raise the child. Or the fact that, until the ACA, every woman in America had to pay higher insurance premiums simply because of the fact that they have a vagina.

I get that as males (assuming! but... you know...) it's hard to conceptualize these costs, because we take them for granted and they're hidden because they're so institutionalized. But they exist and they're hiding in plain sight. Like I said, this should be Bernie's bread and butter!

So you want Bernie to have a purity test for other democratic candidates while he is helping with the DNC on a 50 state strategy?

 

[DontBeThatGuy]

2 of the last 3 Omaha mayors are Democrats, by the way. It's not some Republican stronghold in dire need of compromise candidates. (Hilary also won Douglas county).

The choice is Mello though, so be it.

 

[jtb]

Omaha voted for noted baby killer Hillary Clinton over Donald Trump I'd point out, btw.

So you want Bernie to have a purity test for other democratic candidates while he is helping with the DNC on a 50 state strategy?

He already has a purity test! (See: the Ossoff debacle that sparked this whole kerfuffle in the first place)

If he's going to be the economic progressive that pulls the party to the left, then, yes: he should have an inclusive purity test that incorporates reproductive rights into it.

We can have a 50 state strategy and Bernie can be a supporter of reproductive rights.

But if Bernie is going to represent the left/progressive wing of the party, then I vehemently disagree with the left abandoning reproductive rights as a core tenet of progressivism. Mello is, by definition, a moderate. He's no different than Ossoff in that regard. Okay. That's fine. That's great! Big tent, etc. etc.

But abandoning reproductive rights is not, should not, and will not, ever be "progressive." Wrap yourself in semantics all you want, claim "omg hillary" I do not give a fuck.

Women and people of color are the base of the party. Protecting reproductive rights are a core Democratic, liberal value you do not fuck with. Go ahead and repeal the Voting Rights Act while you're at it; think of all the racists you'll win back! (Assuming Roberts hadn't pissed on it already, of course)

 

[Mutant]

"Man, I really wish the DNC leadership can find common ground with Bernie Sanders and the more leftist part of the democratic party."

*somewhere in my attic, a finger on a detached monkey paw curls up*

 

[jtb]

"Man, I really hope the DNC leadership can find common ground with Bernie Sanders and the more leftist part of the democratic party."

*somewhere in my attic, a finger on a detached monkey paw curls up*

Being anti-reproductive rights is not "more leftist." (For any number of reasons, but especially because reproductive rights are an economic issue. seriously. I'm not talking communication talking points. I'm talking policy impacts on everyday lives.)

 

[Tarydax]

.. are you going to answer my question?

It's Bernie. A majority of PoliGAF hates Bernie. From no-good-reason, all the way to "YAAAS QWEEN".

And God forbid #ImWithHer sees you tweet anything about him.

Bernie ain't perfect, but I see a lot of hate for him for plainly no good reason.

Most of the "hate" directed at Bernie stems from his incompetence and hypocrisy. I actually agree with him about Mello. I don't like Mello's anti-abortion stance at all, but a 50-state strategy is a 50-state strategy. The problem comes from when Bernie jumps at the chance to endorse Mello, calling him a "progressive," and then in the same breath, he doesn't know if the socially-progressive Jon Ossoff is actually a progressive. Bernie then has to, like he usually does, put out a better statement endorsing Ossoff because he fucked up. This happens so often with Bernie it's expected behavior by now. He doesn't know if ____ is progressive, then someone tells him he messed up, so later he releases an actually good statement endorsing ____. His secondary statements don't convince anyone; the damage is already done.

This is the statement he should have released in the first place, but didn't, because it would literally kill him not to put his foot in his mouth:

"Let me be very clear. It is imperative that Jon Ossoff be elected congressman from Georgia's 6th District and that Democrats take back the U.S. House. I applaud the energy and grassroots activism in Jon's campaign. His victory would be an important step forward in fighting back against Trump's reactionary agenda."

And then there's the fact that he said that the people protesting Ann Coulter were intellectually weak when his own supporters exhibited similar behavior in Nevada and at the Democratic National Convention. And that's ignoring how he practically insulted his own supporters without even realizing it!

My support for Bernie during the primaries lasted all the way until he went after Planned Parenthood. I gave him more rope than I've ever given any political candidate before. I agreed with him more often than I did Hillary Clinton (IIRC, 97% to 93%). The problem I have with Bernie isn't his policies, it's the fact that he's Bernie, and he wouldn't be Bernie without being an incompetent hypocrite who thinks he gets to decide who's progressive and who's not. I wanted to like Bernie so, so, so much. He makes it impossible. Really, when's the last time you saw Elizabeth Warren or Sherrod Brown drop the ball half as often as Bernie has? You haven't, because they know how to get it right the first time. Also, for caring so much about income inequality, Bernie doesn't seem to understand that babies cost money. That's why abortion is both a social and an economic issue, but good luck ever getting Bernie to understand that.

Barney Frank is right - Bernie is great at alienating his natural allies.

 

[FLAguy954]

Sanders is the most wishy washy, spineless Democrat to ever get a movement of people following him. Never stands up for what's difficult, always finds ways to sell out the weak.

I know right, what a weak piece of shit.

 

[jtb]

Here's my complete take on this, cross-posted from poligaf:

I honestly have no problem with electing pro-life Democrats as part of a 50 state strategy where you know with absolute certainty a pro-choice candidate has no chance (hell, go full Rahm and put every veteran you can find on the ballot).

What worries and infuriates me the eagerness people have to call being anti-reproductive rights "progressive". You can be a moderate Dem. Let's elect moderates. Let's win back the house. But the moment you forsake a core Democratic party value, be it universal health care, civil rights, reproductive rights, etc. - no, you are not a "leftist." No, you are not a progressive.

I mean, Bernie likes reproductive rights! He's got a great voting record on it! It's an economic issue! We don't have to defend his slight misstep on this, just because it's muscle memory and the big bad DNC must be evil.

This isn't as hard as people are making it out to be.

 

[Imm0rt4l]

Question:


whats so pure in not fucking over half the population? Especially if your whole thing is economic justice; seeing as these things are inextricably linked. Like how does such a low fucking bar constitute as a "purity test?"

 

[Seth Enosh]

This is such strange framing. Are these candidates pro life personally or anti choice?

Biden and Kerry are pro life but also pro choice.

Pro choice is what matters. Personal views that don't affect how you vote are not that relevant.

Pro-life and "anti-choice" are the same thing.

Many (most?) pro-abortion-rights politicians claim to be against it "personally", it means nothing. Pro-life is a position that says the unborn child's right to life trumps the mother's right to choose.

 

[SRG01]

Bernie is the most popular politician in the country, so something eventually is going to have to give. Either the DNC is going to have to move closer to him or he is going to just take everyone with him. The DNC likes to parade Bernie around and use him for star appeal yet so much of the party establishment and hardliners STILL tries to minimize/sabotage his image because he wants to get money out of politics, which of course, threatens their business.

He's the most popular politician by default because the Democrats are running a thin bench post-Hillary, post-Obama. It has nothing to do with Sanders being a good or popular politician.

Most of the "hate" directed at Bernie stems from his incompetence and hypocrisy. I actually agree with him about Mello. I don't like Mello's anti-abortion stance at all, but a 50-state strategy is a 50-state strategy. The problem comes from when Bernie jumps at the chance to endorse Mello, calling him a "progressive," and then in the same breath, he doesn't know if the socially-progressive Jon Ossoff is actually a progressive. Bernie then has to, like he usually does, put out a better statement endorsing Ossoff because he fucked up. This happens so often with Bernie it's expected behavior by now. He doesn't know if ____ is progressive, then someone tells him he messed up, so later he releases an actually good statement endorsing ____. His secondary statements don't convince anyone; the damage is already done.

This is the statement he should have released in the first place, but didn't, because it would literally kill him not to put his foot in his mouth:


And then there's the fact that he said that the people protesting Ann Coulter were intellectually weak when his own supporters exhibited similar behavior in Nevada and at the Democratic National Convention. And that's ignoring how he practically insulted his own supporters without even realizing it! My support for Bernie during the primaries lasted all the way until he went after Planned Parenthood. I gave him more rope than I've ever given any political candidate before. I agreed with him more often than I did Hillary Clinton (IIRC, 97% to 93%). The problem I have with Bernie isn't his policies, it's the fact that he's Bernie, and he wouldn't be Bernie without being an incompetent hypocrite who thinks he gets to decide who's progressive and who's not. I wanted to like Bernie so, so, so much. He makes it impossible. Really, when's the last time you saw Elizabeth Warren or Sherrod Brown drop the ball half as often as Bernie has? You haven't, because they know how to get it right the first time.

Also, for caring so much about income inequality, Bernie doesn't seem to understand that babies cost money. That's why abortion is both a social and an economic issue, but good luck ever getting Bernie to understand that.

Barney Frank is right - Bernie is great at alienating his natural allies.

Thank you. You said it better than I ever could.

 

[Father_Brain]

He's the most popular politician by default because the Democrats are running a thin bench post-Hillary, post-Obama. It has nothing to do with Sanders being a good or popular politician.

Warren, Schumer, and Pelosi aren't exposed to constant attacks from a disproportionately powerful minority of the party, and yet they're far less popular.

I really should make a bingo card for excuses as to why Sanders' polling numbers don't count. That would be fun.

 

[jtb]

Warren, Schumer, and Pelosi aren't exposed to constant attacks from a disproportionately powerful minority of the party, and yet they're far less popular.

Are you fucking kidding? Maybe not Schumer (yet.), but Warren and Pelosi are among the right's most hated boogeymen.

The idea that Bernie has been subject to some kind of smear campaign from liberals/Dems (since they're not real libs, obv) is laughable. Have you seen the shit that Obama and Hillary have been through over the past decade?

(I mean, I know your argument will be that they deserved it, but that's not the point.)

 

[O Canada Our Home and Native Land]

Omaha voted for noted baby killer Hillary Clinton over Donald Trump I'd point out, btw.



He already has a purity test! (See: the Ossoff debacle that sparked this whole kerfuffle in the first place)

He said someone, who doesn't want to claim to be progressive, isn't progressive. Other than a lack of tact, it's a whole lot of nothing.

If he's going to be the economic progressive that pulls the party to the left, then, yes: he should have an inclusive purity test that incorporates reproductive rights into it.

We can have a 50 state strategy and Bernie can be a supporter of reproductive rights.

But if Bernie is going to represent the left/progressive wing of the party, then I vehemently disagree with the left abandoning reproductive rights as a core tenet of progressivism. Mello is, by definition, a moderate. He's no different than Ossoff in that regard. Okay. That's fine. That's great! Big tent, etc. etc.

But abandoning reproductive rights is not, should not, and will not, ever be "progressive." Wrap yourself in semantics all you want, claim "omg hillary" I do not give a fuck.

Women and people of color are the base of the party. Protecting reproductive rights are a core Democratic, liberal value you do not fuck with. Go ahead and repeal the Voting Rights Act while you're at it; think of all the racists you'll win back! (Assuming Roberts hadn't pissed on it already, of course)

They are fucked with constantly. Women's rights have been slowly going backwards state by state. People of color have been thrown under the bus by democrats for decades and even now.

 

[excelsiorlef]

Warren, Schumer, and Pelosi aren't exposed to constant attacks from a disproportionately powerful minority of the party, and yet they're far less popular.

...

Pardon?

Is it your actual opinion that those folks are less attacked than Bernie Sanders? Especially Nancy fucking Pelosi.

 

[Bonen no Max'd]

Here's my complete take on this, cross-posted from poligaf:

I honestly have no problem with electing pro-life Democrats as part of a 50 state strategy where you know with absolute certainty a pro-choice candidate has no chance (hell, go full Rahm and put every veteran you can find on the ballot).

What worries and infuriates me the eagerness people have to call being anti-reproductive rights "progressive". You can be a moderate Dem. Let's elect moderates. Let's win back the house. But the moment you forsake a core Democratic party value, be it universal health care, civil rights, reproductive rights, etc. - no, you are not a "leftist." No, you are not a progressive.

I mean, Bernie likes reproductive rights! He's got a great voting record on it! It's an economic issue! We don't have to defend his slight misstep on this, just because it's muscle memory and the big bad DNC must be evil.

This isn't as hard as people are making it out to be.

I mostly agree, I just think that a "50 state strategy" should mean funding good candidates everywhere, not trying to run a bunch of Blue Dogs. Jason Thompson kind of killed most of the apprehensions I have about the need to moderate for heavily Republican districts. He prosecuted cops for free!

He's the most popular politician by default because the Democrats are running a thin bench post-Hillary, post-Obama. It has nothing to do with Sanders being a good or popular politician.



Thank you. You said it better than I ever could.

This makes no sense, people don't just go "well I guess I'm obligated to like Bernie because Obama and Hillary are gone but I really think he kind of sucks."

 

[1.21Gigawatts]

I'm really, really not. Having a child is, for many women, the single largest financial investment they will ever make in their lives. .

Not going to deny that. My point is just that legalized abortion won't have a huge effect on unwanted pregnancies and children.
Legalized abortion is just one part of the solution.
The entire solution consists of a fundamental reform of the education system, a universal healthcare system, a tight and robust social security net.
And, of course: Campaign finance reform, without which all the former would never come to fruition.

 

[Father_Brain]

...

Pardon?

Is it your actual opinion that those folks are less attacked than Bernie Sanders? Especially Nancy fucking Pelosi.

Within the Democratic Party? Are you serious?

 

[jtb]

He said someone, who doesn't want to claim to be progressive, isn't progressive. Other than a lack of tact, it's a whole lot of nothing.



They are fucked with constantly. Women's rights have been slowly going backwards state by state. People of color have been thrown under the bus by democrats for decades and even now.

And...? Clearly I think that's a fucking horrible thing and a travesty.

Every dem in congress voted for the ACA. When push comes to shove, even with their jobs on the line, sometimes we can do the right thing. And often, it's worth it.

 

[excelsiorlef]

Within the Democratic Party? Are you serious?

You realize right wing talking points and GOP attacks affect how Democrats see Democrats too right?

Pelosi is the biggest victim of that shit, it's Clinton levels of effective against her.

 

[Zyae]

He wants to bring northern European style social democracy to the US.

Obviously, this is an impossible task.
For one, the democratic lacks any and every expertise when it comes to social democracy.
And Bernie, too.
His proposals would have been ripped to shreds by any somewhat decent European social democrat. They would've never worked in the US.
But neither the Clinton campaign, nor the media, nor the republicans were able to point out the flaws in Sanders' plans, because they are all clueless.

I just hope Sanders manages to spread the general idea of social democracy in the US. It will then be up to actual experts to implement social democratic policies.

I honestly believe that a social democracy would improve a majority of social issues like racism, sexism, income inequality etc. without specifically setting out to do that.

im sure you cracked the code.

 

[Father_Brain]

Are you fucking kidding? Maybe not Schumer (yet.), but Warren and Pelosi are among the right's most hated boogeymen.

The idea that Bernie has been subject to some kind of smear campaign from liberals/Dems (since they're not real libs, obv) is laughable. Have you seen the shit that Obama and Hillary have been through over the past decade?

(I mean, I know your argument will be that they deserved it, but that's not the point.)

You misread my post, but fucking LMAO at the notion that Sanders hasn't been subjected to a smear campaign by the Democratic establishment and institutions affiliated with it.

 

[Atilac]

They are softening their stance because they want to win. I live here in the south, and during the bleakest days before the presidential election all the staunch republican friends I have were using abortion as their last stand.

"HOW CAN YOU SUPPORT A CANDIDATE THAT MURDERS BABIES?!" is a very difficult argument to beat when the people saying that don't listen to reason. Until you find a way to beat that, it doesn't matter how deplorable the republican nominee is, their base will vote for them again and again and feel justified that they are making the "godly" choice.

My sister voted for trump due to abortion. Said aloud afterwards she felt dirty.