"Democracy works, thank god an elected mayor was thrown out.
I hope Ford doesn't run so people can't choose to elect him again."
Seems it only works, if it works your way.
Toronto-Age |OT2|
- Thread starter EvilMario
- Start date
"Democracy works, thank god an elected mayor was thrown out.
I hope Ford doesn't run so people can't choose to elect him again."
Seems it only works, if it works your way.
A large number of people in Toronto drive you must remember. Drivers hate bike lanes and unfortunately cyclists are the minority.
Yes, because that plan was absolutely flawless... And you can celebrate that you are ousting an ass, but this is going to cost the city a lot of money and there is no guarantee that anything will change (and who knows, things may get worse). Toronto-GAF is demonizing Ford for petty crap.
The purpose of the court system is to keep the executive branch in check. If the mayor violates the codes that we elected him to follow, then the court's job is to kick him out. That's how the system is supposed to work.
How is the transit city and the budget fiasco petty crap? There aren't any bigger issues in our city than that. You're doing exactly what he does. You don't even address any of the points people make and are just belittling their position. Transit City wasn't flawless, but it was the best plan we had. Ford's subway plan was unfeasible especially given his position of "no new taxes ever". He has done absolutely nothing positive for this city at all from our position so why should we not be celebrating? When someone drives you into a ditch and tells you "don't worry, I can probably drive us out", are you going to be okay with it? Or are you going to let someone else drive?
LRT is an economical and future looking idea - why is that dumb? It would be implemented the quickest, and cheapest. I'm personally pretty opposed to investing huuuuge sums of money into transportation for a city when the sort of transportation technology can easily be outmoded within the decade it would take just to implement it. Spend cheaper, implement quicker, same results.
I think people have plenty of arguments against rob ford, more than can be counted, I could churn out a nice long list describing why he was one of the worst mayors. But, yeah, some people make fun of him because he was really bad at losing weight. I feel kinda bad about that, but there is some overall message I think we can take away from his challenge - he has trouble doing the right thing even when it's the best for him.
Reason why he's out of office.
The inconvenience drivers feel regarding bike lanes doesn't really matter in the face of their very real benefit, for the safety and convenience of those who choose to ride bikes as their mode of transportation. Concessions can (and should) be made for those bikers.
Who said the plan was flawless? It was good, and it could have been tweaked to be better - the alternate plan Rob suggested was horrible, and the money he wasted throwing out the plan and suggesting his crappy one was huge, let alone the time wasted. The "better the evil you know" is a silly argument, it's born from this idea that no matter what, bad shit will happen. We can, and have had good mayors - even Miller, yes, was a better Mayor than Rob.
I'll accept that, but actively wanting him out of the byelection to prevent a real referendum on him is ridiculous.
The LRT is a dumb idea. And in regards of shit image, did you forget this:
And the fact that you mentioned his struggle with weight loss really makes me wonder about your opinion in general. No one wakes up in the morning and wants to be that size and yet that's the best argument people can muster up about Ford. Disgusting.
Oops, sorry guys. I forgot Cut the Waist wasn't just a publicity stunt. If he wants to change who is his, I hope he continues to fight it. But as he said toward the end of the challenge, he gave up on dieting and eating healthy. Get the man some help, just not through a heavily publicized competition that is only going to embarrass him when he fails. It was a part of his time as Mayor, so I brought it up. I find little sympathy for the man who did this more for the attention than for the actual help.
Nice to see you cherry picking arguments, although I know you'll never understand why transit was flawed, but still needed in its original form.
The LRT nonsense was not petty crap. Near the end of it Ontario would have been perfectly justified in pulling their 8 billion dollars out since the City could not get their act together and was bungling and ripping up an agreement in favour of a subway that had no plan and no engineering details.
The Portlands nonsense was not petty crap either. Doug Ford was meeting with Australian mall developers behind council's back to come up with it.
Talking about replacing the integrity commissioner, ombudsman AND lobbyist registry with a part time lawyer is not petty stuff.
Removing bike lands on Jarvis is a gigantic waste of money, purely ideologically driven.
All people are saying is they hope he doesn't run again. Don't see why that's ridiculous. It's not like they are saying "We should kill him" or some other dramatic language, you can just hope someone doesn't run for office
.firehawk12
Subete no aware
Heh, I was going to joke about how Toronto has finally won a sports championship and then saw the big news.
I figure the appeal has to go through. I can't see him being completely removed from office.
I figure the appeal has to go through. I can't see him being completely removed from office.
He's basically been neutered since his transit vision fell through. And if we're stuck with Holyday rather than a by-election, it won't be an improvement.
It'll be interesting to see Ford run again. I wonder if he's had enough, or if this will just make him want to have another go at it.
Well Holyday said he wants a fresh election rather than appointing anyone internally.
The LRT is a dumb idea. And in regards of shit image, did you forget this:
And the fact that you mentioned his struggle with weight loss really makes me wonder about your opinion in general. No one wakes up in the morning and wants to be that size and yet that's the best argument people can muster up about Ford. Disgusting.
The LRT is the only viable option for the city... our transit has been stagnant for way too long and it's obvious that subways are not viable from a financial stand point. Transit city was the best alternative to get things rolling again and it was all ready to go until he came into office.
And the weight loss comment was more about the guys character. Hell, even his brother kept with it. Nobody said he had to reach his goal (that he set him self, btw), but at least finish the damn program and give yourself a pat on the back for finishing.
And what about him drunkenly swearing at people (and then blatantly lying)? Texting while driving? His previous DUI? The fact that he completely ignores one of the major newspapers in the city?
That doesn't even mention that he wanted to close down libraries (go to any library in the city and you'll see people frequenting them all the time) and ripped out the Javis street bike lanes. And then let's not forget how he rejected the federal funding for at risk youth and suggested that the violence problem would be resolved if those associated with gangs would just leave the city.
This guy just didn't know how to be a mayor. He campaigned on saving money but has ultimately failed to do so. He was very out of touch with the needs of Toronto (especially the downtown core) and his image fails to reflect what our city stands for.
The craziest thing is according to THE LAW, this was the most lenient the judge could have been. Ford put himself into the insane situation where getting thrown out of office was the least the judge could have done. What the hell kind of a person gets into THAT kind of a mess?
Edit: Oh yeah, I forgot how he REFUSED an offer by Ontario for FREE NURSES THAT WOULD NOT HAVE COST THE CITY ANYTHING to help with immigrant health. Hell he had to have his arm twisted to accept FREE NURSES FROM THE PROVINCE to help with the bedbug problem we have in the city. And oh yeah, those things weren't PETTY either.
I honestly thought when he was elected that Ford wouldn't be as bad as Lastman with his MFC scandal. How wrong I was.
I hope he does.
All the "negatives" listed in this thread, some even by myself, still didn't get him out of office. Toronto should feel really proud today that we got rid of someone who "everyone hated" because he is a little bit eccentric and overweight in a really cowardly, 'backdoor', manner. Who cares about him trying to solicit money for a football team? I hate team sports and I could care less about this. Was it a great decision on his part? Probably not. Should he have been forced out of office over it? No. The amount of money this is going to cost over $3100 is insane.
Toronto-GAF seems to think that being the Mayor is easy and all the decisions are extremely apparent. If it's so easy, run for office.
I wish it were that simple. His subsequent actions BROKE THE LAW under the Muncipal Conflict of Interest Act and THAT'S why he was thrown out. What should happen when someone breaks a law Willectro? And it wasn't like Ford wasn't given CHANCE AFTER CHANCE to resolve the situation. Seriously. He just got into a moronic bullheaded stance of "I DIDN'T DO ANYTHING WRONG. I DID IT FOR THE KIDS!" and it's ON HIM that he couldn't change his approach.
The law is the law. You follow the law. Ford didn't and it's his fault and no one elses.
If you violate the rules so willfully, you will be kicked out of office. No one is above the law, especially an elected official. What is the point of a code of conduct if it is not enforced? We are all glad he's gone because we extremely dislike his politics, but that is separate from the reasons why he was kicked out and rightfully so.
firehawk12
Subete no aware
The stupid thing is that if he wasn't a dick about it and just paid back the four grand, which he surely could afford, then he wouldn't be in this mess in the first place. I guess he just assumed that executive privilege would protect him indefinitely.
Yea, Ford is the only politician to ever break the "law" (read: municipal rule) while in office. It's a good thing that Canada no longer has the death penalty, because this was a serious offense. It's going to cost the city $7 million. Seems like money well spent.
FTFY.
Wait a minute, you're saying that since everyone in your view breaks the law, we shouldn't enforce laws? What the hell kind of argument is that?
That's the first response. The second response is why the hell didn't Ford keep his mouth shut and his hand by his side when the time came to vote even after he was informed that it was a conflict of interest? Because it was "for the kids"? This was HIS action, HIS responsibility, HIS fault.
Edit: And honstly, I'm not glad he was turfed because it's giving Ford supports a bullshit idiotic narrative about how the left wing ran him out of town or some similar partisian crap. It's bizzare to see people so high on personal accountability twisting like pretzels in an attempt to absolve Ford of any.
So I'm not as up with this as you. I don't recall another time someone broke the law.
Any proof of this?
Then what is the point of a law then? According to the judge, he was ousted because he displayed willful ignorance of the law. He ignored reading the rule books and did not take legal advice. It would have been one thing if he honestly did not know about the rules, but to willfully choose to ignore them is another. It is an attitude we don't need from the leader of our city. Also you know what cost the city money? Cancelling Transit city cost us 50 million dollars. That was certainly money well spent for wasting two years and getting right back to where we were.
Also, I don't even own a bike
He admitted he didn't read the book outlining the rules of conflict of interests and failed to attend the appropriate training sessions.
The rules are here to be enforced, we're not at liberty to say "well, in this case it only involved X amount of money, so it's okay" because the lines are already clearly drawn.
It's a combination of him breaking the rules and his citing of willful ignorance that got him kicked out. The 7 million the city has to pay is really unfortunate but that blame falls solely on him.
firehawk12
Subete no aware
It'd be funny if he had to fund the by-election himself.
Did you actually reply to anything I said? Even the one line you quoted me on doesn't really make sense with the reply you put. The line you quoted essentially was me saying that the guy got kicked out because he can't do the right thing, even when it's in his own best interest - like his conduct during this whole thing.
I think kicking him out over any reason is a general win, even what amounts to a technicality - the guy was a bad mayor, and you'll even agree that there are a list of reasons why. But his blatant disregard for the political system is definitely not the least of them.
Wow.
I'm 25, I don't really follow politics. I know my dad loves Ford though.
And no one has, or ever will think that Rob or anyone person is the sole problem in Toronto. Leave if you like, but I think you need to reevaluate your stance - it's always important to have your position challenged. And it's also important to challenge the actual positions of others, and not just what you think/want their positions to be.
No one thinks Ford was the sole problem of this city, but he was the leader of it. It will be nice to try and get a competent leader here to try to fix things. Whether that happens is up in the air, but at least we are better off tomorrow than yesterday.
FWIW, your position is welcome here and you'll find that most people genuinely like to discuss these things even if we disagree. But what you've been doing is just attacking people's position instead of addressing their arguments with any depth. No one here has personally attacked you for your position, but you continue to belittle everyone's else's position and bring up strawmen after strawmen.
"I have lost this argument so I am now bailing but be I will get the last word"
Biff
Member
Ford will inevitably appeal and this will not be resolved until the next election would likely happen anyway.
Regardless, I sympathize with Ford. I have never seen a Mayor try to run a city with so much blatant hostility against him from day one. The plastic bag debacle was a disgrace to Toronto, and goes to show how our council would choose to slap Ford in the face instead of protect the interest of their citizens.
To attack a man for fundraising for a youth football team is disgusting. It shouldn't have gone to a vote, but it did and Ford made a stupid mistake by voting in it (I don't understand how their isn't a monitor in the room to make sure council follows procedure).
I don't sympathize with him not reading the rulebook. I sympathize with a man who made a mistake under an avalanche of hate that would ultimately hurt some kids who just wanted to play football. Out of all the ways to impeach Ford, this is among the absolute classless.
Regardless, I sympathize with Ford. I have never seen a Mayor try to run a city with so much blatant hostility against him from day one. The plastic bag debacle was a disgrace to Toronto, and goes to show how our council would choose to slap Ford in the face instead of protect the interest of their citizens.
To attack a man for fundraising for a youth football team is disgusting. It shouldn't have gone to a vote, but it did and Ford made a stupid mistake by voting in it (I don't understand how their isn't a monitor in the room to make sure council follows procedure).
I don't sympathize with him not reading the rulebook. I sympathize with a man who made a mistake under an avalanche of hate that would ultimately hurt some kids who just wanted to play football. Out of all the ways to impeach Ford, this is among the absolute classless.
The avalanche of hate was earned by him, and did not magically manifest itself out of nowhere. It came from not only his really bad policies, but also how he carried himself while representing this city:
On many issues, Ford takes a retrograde stance, whether it’s AIDS (“If you’re not doing needles and you’re not gay, you won’t get AIDS, probably”, or drinking and driving (“a lot of people drink and drive. I got caught”
This was not a mistake, this was willful ignorance. The judge explicitly stated that this decision was based on his attitude of willfully neglecting to familiarize himself with the rules due to ideology rather than a simple 'mistake'.
Also, that plastic bag ban is welcomed by many people, including myself. It is a move in the right direction and certainly not a vote against the interests of its citizens.
This doesn't paint an accurate picture of a) the relationship Rob Ford had with the council and b) the situation as it played out.
For the second point. He voted when he shouldn't have, after being warned not to - while the person who warned him not to was in the room. Then when the ethics advisor deigned to criticize Rob on his actions, instead of discussing it, he tried to belittle the authority of the person and even question the legitimacy of their job.
When given ample opportunity to make amends, or at least treat the situation like a mature adult, he instead chose the petty and willfully misleading tactics he did.
It was embarrassing, and had he not been seriously reprimanded for his actions, it would look like he could get away with acting like a horrible person and mayor, with little to no repercussions.
His dad thinks you need to step up your Leafs cheering when the NHL returns in 2015!
Haha, I feel like the last person in Toronto who hasn't gotten theirs yet. :`(
There's no winning or losing. It's politics therefore often based on opinion. Toronto-GAF is largely left-wing, bleeding heart, white knights, so of course the consensus here is going to be against Ford. And who said I was getting the last word?
The plastic bag ban was a motion moved by David Shiner, who is my Councillor, and an incredibly right wing Councillor who is supposed to be in Ford's inner circle. The plastic bag ban has been something Shiner has wanted for a very long time now and the ban isn't a symptom of council being hostile to or disrespecting Ford. It's a symptom of council ignoring Ford as being completely irrelevant to the business of actually governing the city.
That's not what he was attacked for. He was censured for fundraising for a charity while using official City of Toronto stationary aimed at businesses and lobbyists that do business with the city of Toronto. It was an abuse of his position as Councillor.
There is, and they did. Ford ignored them and went ahead. That's what he does. He has all the advice in the world but he ignores it.
No, if it was a mistake then there were a dozen times when Ford could have resolved this situation smoothly and moved on. He didn't. His adamant refusal to handle the situation in any way that would even hint that he was wrong has led to this point.
What? No. Opinion is a part of it, but there are also facts and laws (which are not matters of opinion) and Rob Ford is on the wrong side of those.
Way to get yourself taken seriously, bro.
I mean seriously. Here's an excerpt from the ruling:
On my review of the record in this proceeding, the respondent has never acknowledged a key point addressed in the Integrity Commissioners report; that is, that it was not appropriate for the respondent to use his status as Councillor (or Mayor) for private fundraising, notwithstanding that the purpose was to benefit a good cause. The rationale for this is explained by the Integrity Commissioner in the following excerpt, on p. 14, from her excellent report, dated January 30, 2012, which I respectfully endorse:
"In fairness to Councillor Ford, it is common for a person who has blurred their roles to have difficulty seeing the problem at the beginning. It often takes others to point out the problem, especially in a case where the goal (fundraising for football programs for youth) is laudable. The validity of the charitable cause is not the point. The more attractive the cause or charity, the greater the danger that other important questions will be overlooked, including who is being asked to donate, how are they being asked, who is doing the asking, and is it reasonable to conclude that a person being asked for money will take into account the position of the person asking for the donation. Where there is an element of personal advantage (in this case, the publication of the Councillors good works, even beyond what they had actually achieved), it is important not to let the fact that it is all for a good cause justify using improper methods for financing that cause. People who are in positions of power and influence must make sure their private fundraising does not rely on the metaphorical muscle of perceived or actual influence in obtaining donations.
The initial concerns of the integrity commissioner is well founded and this ruling is based on a strict application of the law. The integrity commissioner and the judge aren't at fault here. Ford is.
On my review of the record in this proceeding, the respondent has never acknowledged a key point addressed in the Integrity Commissioners report; that is, that it was not appropriate for the respondent to use his status as Councillor (or Mayor) for private fundraising, notwithstanding that the purpose was to benefit a good cause. The rationale for this is explained by the Integrity Commissioner in the following excerpt, on p. 14, from her excellent report, dated January 30, 2012, which I respectfully endorse:
"In fairness to Councillor Ford, it is common for a person who has blurred their roles to have difficulty seeing the problem at the beginning. It often takes others to point out the problem, especially in a case where the goal (fundraising for football programs for youth) is laudable. The validity of the charitable cause is not the point. The more attractive the cause or charity, the greater the danger that other important questions will be overlooked, including who is being asked to donate, how are they being asked, who is doing the asking, and is it reasonable to conclude that a person being asked for money will take into account the position of the person asking for the donation. Where there is an element of personal advantage (in this case, the publication of the Councillors good works, even beyond what they had actually achieved), it is important not to let the fact that it is all for a good cause justify using improper methods for financing that cause. People who are in positions of power and influence must make sure their private fundraising does not rely on the metaphorical muscle of perceived or actual influence in obtaining donations.
The initial concerns of the integrity commissioner is well founded and this ruling is based on a strict application of the law. The integrity commissioner and the judge aren't at fault here. Ford is.
Oppo
Member
Remember when we had a mayor who actually liked downtown Toronto? Who rode his bike and went to FC games and gay pride parades? and tweeted? Seems like a distant dream now.
Also, Did he really have his radio show canceled? I've often thought that that greatly helped his election the first time around.
Also, Did he really have his radio show canceled? I've often thought that that greatly helped his election the first time around.