Tosh.0 Staffer Accidentally Killed by Cop

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kirblar said:
Bad information. They thought there was only one victim, and the description was relatively close to the victim who was killed.
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This. That information should be easy enough to check (just listen to the 911 call). If they honestly thought there were only two people there, and two people came out with one of them clearly being the victim, then it's fairly easy to understand why they would think the other person was the attacker, especially if he fit the general description.
 
What can you even do? With such lax gun laws and seemingly everyone from citizens to criminals having guns, how can you take guns away from cops?

We've seen over and over even the most trained person with a firearm can hesitate or misunderstand a situation, and that more often than not, reach for their gun at the first sign of trouble.

Guy bursts out of his door, pump him full of lead because it's human instinct. Give cops tasers and they become dependent on those and start tasing at will. Difference is that innocents won't get hit in the crossfire and that even mistakes don't tend to kill people. Guns are so finite, it's disgusting.
 
mr2xxx said:
They need to put a camera on all these idiots so maybe they can hesitate before murdering innocent people.
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This really doesn't sound like the kind of situation to get overly angry at the police about. They thought there were two people inside, two people ran out, the one in front was bleeding from his neck. It doesn't say anywhere that the police could clearly see the guy in the back had no weapons. It doesn't even say how far away they were. If two of them burst out of the room 5 feet in front of the police, what do you expect the outcome to be.
 
As deputies continued attempts to contact the people in the apartment, the apartment door suddenly opened and a male victim came rushing out. He was covered in blood and bleeding profusely from the neck. Simultaneously, Victim Winkler ran out of the door, lunging at the back of the fleeing victim. Both ran directly at the deputies. Winkler was similar to the description of the suspect and was wearing a black shirt. Believing Winkler was the assailant and the assault was ongoing and he would attack the entry team; three deputies fired their duty weapons at him. Victim Winkler was struck by the gunfire and fell to the floor, and the male victim also collapsed; struck once by the gunfire.
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Seems like the victim who died was the one who followed the first victim out of the door. The police thought he was the attacker lunging towards the other victim and they fired at him. It's quite possible they fired to protect the first person running in the front.
 
ponpo said:
This really doesn't sound like the kind of situation to get overly angry at the police about. They thought there were two people inside, two people ran out, the one in front was bleeding from his neck. It doesn't say anywhere that the police could clearly see the guy in the back had no weapons. It doesn't even say how far away they were. If two of them burst out of the room 5 feet in front of the police, what do you expect the outcome to be.
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Personally I think Americas gun culture is to blame. Going to any situation reported or not there is a possibility the assailant has a gun and if it were my life or theirs, I wouldnt need to do any mental gymnastics over the out come. I dont believe you see as many police shootings in the rest of the Western world because the chance that an assailant would be armed with a gun is very low giving officers more time and space to decide on how to approach these situations.

Obviously in this case there were no guns (outside of the police) but I can understand why police were be more prone to shooting first and investigating after.
 
ponpo said:
This really doesn't sound like the kind of situation to get overly angry at the police about. They thought there were two people inside, two people ran out, the one in front was bleeding from his neck. It doesn't say anywhere that the police could clearly see the guy in the back had no weapons. It doesn't even say how far away they were. If two of them burst out of the room 5 feet in front of the police, what do you expect the outcome to be.
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I expect police to only fire their weapon when there is a clear and present danger ... not when they are unsure about the situation ...
 
EdibleKnife said:
Man, how do you screw up so badly? I know being a cop isn't the world easiest job but damn.
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I'm sorry but this really isn't one of those cases of "stupid cops, shoot first, ask later" scenarios. Now, I'm just going off of what the article specifically stated happens and based on that it seems the officers acted reasonably. They saw a victim running out of the apartment, while another unknown person, matching the description of the assailant, covered in blood, burst out of the apartment "lunging at the victim." In that case, it was reasonable for them to fire at what they then assumed to be the suspect, who in their minds was about to attack the victim again and possibly kill them.

Tragic yes, but it's hard to look back in hindsight and Monday night quarterback the whole thing when you now have all the correct facts in front of you and face none of the immediate dangers and facts known to you at the time.
 
Mohonky said:
Obviously in this case there were no guns (outside of the police) but I can understand why police were be more prone to shooting first and investigating after.
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Effnine said:
I expect police to only fire their weapon when there is a clear and present danger ... not when they are unsure about the situation ...
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I think a lot of the accidental police shooting stories make it sound like the police were acting poorly, because they probably were, but I think there aren't enough details in this story to judge. I guess they could be purposely hiding details, but from what's posted in the OP, it's easy to imagine a scenario (narrow hallway, short distance between guys running and the police, etc.) where they felt threatened enough to shoot.
 
Lesson here is when cops have their guns out go prone and freeze because your chance of dying just jumped to 100%-doesn't matter if you're a suspect or a bystander.


Fire these fucks.
 
RSLAEV said:
Lesson here is when cops have their guns out go prone and freeze because your chance of dying just jumped to 100%-doesn't matter if you're a suspect or a bystander.


Fire these fucks.
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You can be handcuffed while lying face-down on the ground and still get shot by cops.
 
CrankyJay said:
Wait. The attacker got charged with one count of murder? He's getting charged with the cops mistake? Am I reading this right?
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That's the way the law works, yep. If you commit a felony, and someone is hurt/killed as a result of your felony (even if your didn't do it yourself), you get hit with the charges. Even if you're just an accomplice. That's the law. Crime doesn't pay.

On topic though, terrible situation.
 
Crime doesn't pay. Neither does being innocent. At least being a cop and murdering people over your own zealous incompetence seems to work out fairly well though.
 
Jel44 said:
So the suspect.. That didn't kill anyone, got charged with murder?
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Yeah, if there's collateral death caused by your crime, you get charged with Felony murder.

It actually doesn't preclude the Cop from being charged, but come on now... we all know he's getting paid leave.
 
Jel44 said:
So the suspect.. That didn't kill anyone, got charged with murder?
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Yes. As he should be. He was committing a crime which resulted in someones death.

There was some story a while back about a group of teenagers (I believe) who were found guilty of murder because four of them broke into a house, the homeowner shot and killed one of them, the three survivors were found guilty for the murder. Not exactly sure what the charges were, but again, their criminal actions caused a death, so they are responsible in the face of the law. Kind of fucked up in that scenario since the person who was killed chose to break into the house as well, but yeah.
 
Yaboosh said:
Yeah, cops in places like Oakland are known for being awesome. And I hear BART has great cops too.
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Point taken. (And Fruitvale Station is a great movie.) But we still can't compete with the LAPD.

My local cops deal with nothing but barking dogs and people speeding in school zones.
 
Hero_of_the_Day said:
Yes. As he should be. He was committing a crime which resulted in someones death.

There was some story a while back about a group of teenagers (I believe) who were found guilty of murder because four of them broke into a house, the homeowner shot and killed one of them, they were found guilty for the murder. Not exactly sure what the charges were, but again, their criminal actions caused a death, so they are responsible in the face of the law. Kind of fucked up in that scenario since the person who was killed chose to break into the house as well, but yeah.
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Was it this?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/steve-drizin/the-elkhart-four_b_4034052.html
 
The lesson here, kiddies, is if you narrowly escape a knife murderer, and your running away, and straight ahead is a bunch of cops...
Just turn around and run back.
 
Romars202129 said:
The lesson here, kiddies, is if you narrowly escape a knife murderer, and your running away, and straight ahead is a bunch of cops...
Just turn around and run back.
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I dunno if thats a sound lesson, they might think you're the suspect trying to escape and shoot you anyway.
 
Not LAPD

Actually LASO

And tragic. I constantly smh at cop gaf.

And it's neither a suspension nor paid vacation, it's administrative leave pending investigation and preliminary District Attorney review.
 
mr2xxx said:
They need to put a camera on all these idiots so maybe they can hesitate before murdering innocent people.
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They either shoot or decide not to in the few seconds they have to make a decision. They made the wrong choice. Hesitation was not an option here.

If they shot the attacker instead then it would have been viewed differently. But it would be the same decision based on the same information, only with a different outcome.
 
iammeiam said:
Felony murder rule, I'm guessing.
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Skunkers said:
That's the way the law works, yep. If you commit a felony, and someone is hurt/killed as a result of your felony (even if your didn't do it yourself), you get hit with the charges. Even if you're just an accomplice. That's the law. Crime doesn't pay.

On topic though, terrible situation.
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Hah wow, that is a total roll of the dice when you do some crazy shit. If he stabbed a bunch of people and had a torture and hostage rap too I guess maybe he should be locked up for life.
 
Yaboosh said:
I would rather 5 cops die in the line of duty than to have cops kill 1 innocent person. Risk is inherent to the job that you chose. Erring on the side of risk towards innocent people is the utmost of cowardice and any cop that is involved in something like this should realize that they are horrible people and should be punished severely.
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I wouldn't want five cops to die but I think they have to risk more. Their job is essentially to protect the innocent.
 
Yaboosh said:
I would rather 5 cops die in the line of duty than to have cops kill 1 innocent person. Risk is inherent to the job that you chose. Erring on the side of risk towards innocent people is the utmost of cowardice and any cop that is involved in something like this should realize that they are horrible people and should be punished severely.
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So you're basically saying cops are subhuman?
 
Deputies say Winkler died after he was taken to a hospital. The L.A. County Fire Department twice told us he was dead upon their arrival at the complex.
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Why aren't we talking about this? The cops clearly lied about this situation, so they probably also lied about other details of the incident to cover their asses as well.
 
Yaboosh said:
I would rather 5 cops die in the line of duty than to have cops kill 1 innocent person. Risk is inherent to the job that you chose. Erring on the side of risk towards innocent people is the utmost of cowardice and any cop that is involved in something like this should realize that they are horrible people and should be punished severely.
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Well, if their version of the story is truthful he was shot because he appeared to be lunging at the first victim to escape. So, they weren't shooting just for themselves.

nynt9 said:
Why aren't we talking about this? The cops clearly lied about this situation, so they probably also lied about other details of the incident to cover their asses as well.
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People from the Fire Department getting information wrong proves the cops were lying?

Early reports from these types of situations are always inaccurate.
 
Hero_of_the_Day said:
People from the Fire Department getting information wrong proves the cops were lying?

Early reports from these types of situations are always inaccurate.
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This isn't some sort of minor detail that one can easily miss. Also it was doible checked. It's extra suspicious because the "he died at the hospital" excuse has been used many time by police to cover up brutality. So seeing that trademark phrase just sets off alarms for me.
 
CrankyJay said:
So you're basically saying cops are subhuman?
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No, I don't think that what he is saying at all. It should be understood that it's a policeman's job to protect the public, and there's certain degree of risk naturally associated with that job.
 
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