Trump handed Merkel 300bn bill for what germany "owed" Nato

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DrMungo said:
That's not how NATO works
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The 300bn note isn't meant to be a metaphor for a payment made to the US, but rather what Germany owe in form of payment to the alliance.

If countries are not fulfilling their end of an agreement to fund their militaries, then it essentially admitting they are relying on the US military for their security.

It should be noted that the Pentagon has been public about its frustrations regarding this for several years now.
 
Matt said:
Germany spends the 9th most in the world on their military. The complaint here is that number is still less than 2% of their GDP.
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2% target is ridiculous anyway. If germany spend 2% of defence they're in the same ballpark as russia
 
Matt said:
Germany spends the 9th most in the world on their military. The complaint here is that number is still less than 2% of their GDP.
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I know, it's just that 3% spending would be a huge jump for them. According to Wikipedia it's currently 1.2 so basically they are being asked of spending more than double on their military which is kinda absurd. At that point they would be spending way more than Russia.
 
Wanda/Wander said:
So, is it safe to assume that all the goodwill and respect that Obama has built up for America has already been wiped away by Trump?
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Trump is working on wiping out all the goodwill America's ever had. And that would perfectly align with Putin's desires, too. Hmm ...

Like I've said before, Republicans claimed Obama went on apology tour when he got into office. If the next President is a Democrat, or Trump gets forcibly removed from office, our next President really WILL be doing a serious apology tour.

The problem, though, is that the world isn't stupid. They know now that close to half of America is actually evil.
 
Meus Renaissance said:
The 300bn note isn't meant to be a metaphor for a payment made to the US, but rather what Germany owe in form of payment to the alliance.

If countries are not fulfilling their end of an agreement to fund their militaries, then it essentially admitting they are relying on the US military for their security.

It should be noted that the Pentagon has been public about its frustrations regarding this for several years now.
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That agreement was made in 2014, to be reached by 2024.

How does this bill starting from 2002 (with interest!) make any sense?

Besides the fact that, yeah, NATO is not a protection racket, and that agreement was non binding anyway.
 
Napoleonthechimp said:
Trump thinks he can intimidate the Germans. Cute.
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He probably can. The question is, why is the US openly hostile towards a strong ally and partner? Does Putin really have him by the balls that much. He is willing to call Americans themselves killers rather than have Putin be offended. Germany, Sweden, Canada, UK, Mexico, Australia, Japan, SK. The US is openly antagonizing allies or friendly countries and for what?
 
Napalm_Frank said:
I know, it's just that 3% spending would be a huge jump for them. According to Wikipedia it's currently 1.2 so basically they are being asked of spending more than double on their military which is kinda absurd. At that point they would be spending way more than Russia.
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The target is 2%.
 
Germany should hand the US their bill for the spending on the refugee crisis which the the US had a major hand in creating through their Middle east activities.
 
Meus Renaissance said:
The 300bn note isn't meant to be a metaphor for a payment made to the US, but rather what Germany owe in form of payment to the alliance.

If countries are not fulfilling their end of an agreement to fund their militaries, then it essentially admitting they are relying on the US military for their security.

It should be noted that the Pentagon has been public about its frustrations regarding this for several years now.
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It's not an agreement it's a "goal"
 
Madness said:
He probably can. The question is, why is the US openly hostile towards a strong ally and partner? Does Putin really have him by the balls that much. He is willing to call Americans themselves killers rather than have Putin be offended. Germany, Sweden, Canada, UK, Mexico, Australia, Japan, SK. The US is openly antagonizing allies or friendly countries and for what?
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Even that kinda would fall into Germany's hands regarding EU integration if US was undermining NATO, would it not? They and a few other countries have a hard on for joint EU military which has been kinda pointless since, you know, they have NATO already. But the second the US proves themselves not to be reliable I'd imagine the eastern european countries would be screaming for EU to step up their game.
 
Not even sure what germany would do with 2% defence spending.

Bundeswehr currently has 210k soldiers and germany is only allowed to 350k due to the 2+4 treaty.
 
Napalm_Frank said:
Even that kinda would fall into Germany's hands regarding EU integration if US was undermining NATO, would it not? They and a few other countries have a hard on for joint EU military which has been kinda pointless since, you know, they have NATO already. But the second the US proves themselves not to be reliable I'd imagine the eastern european countries would be screaming for EU to step up their game.
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The Visegrad group are largely being run by a bunch of nationalistic dipshits who are happy to use NATO and even American influence in order to counter Brussels when it suits them. Poland is particularly obnoxious.
 
Napalm_Frank said:
Even that kinda would fall into Germany's hands regarding EU integration if US was undermining NATO, would it not? They and a few other countries have a hard on for joint EU military which has been kinda pointless since, you know, they have NATO already. But the second the US proves themselves not to be reliable I'd imagine the eastern european countries would be screaming for EU to step up their game.
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Germany and many EU nations do not spend enough on their military and the US is right that Germany needs to do more and spend more for NATO and their military. However the point is, why is Trump refusing Merkel handshakes? Why is he doing childish things like this fake 300 billion bill. Who does that to another head of state, one who is an ally. He said China disrespected Obama by not rolling out a red carpet. Why is he doing this to a longtime ally and partner? It is because Merkel is everything he isn't. I have criticized her harshly for her regime change attempt in Greece, her boneheaded migrant decisions. But she is a far more capable leader than this orange shithead.
 
Madness said:
Germany and many EU nations do not spend enough on their military and the US is right that Germany needs to do more and spend more for NATO and their military.
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If you consider who is starting these "wars", the question is why EU countries should spend that much.
 
Wow, that is so insulting on so many levels. D: Merkel must have nerves of steel to just politely ignore such an deliberate affront.
 
I understand the bullshit point he's making, Military spending is much less efficient than spending on social programs and infrastructure. Holding NATO allies to that 2% target is an attempt to force austerity on those countries.
 
Chairmanchuck said:
If you consider who is starting these "wars", the question is why EU countries should spend that much.
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The other NATO nations know they have been spending too little on their own militaries, which is why they agreed to these new targets in the first place.

The general point here is not wrong, Trumps methods and language are what's insane.
 
jdstorm said:
Killer Robots? Crazy Scifi weapons?
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I'd rather sent this money to Greece or other EU countries than have a military as strong as Russia without any need for it just because the americans throw a tantrum

There's literally no need for us to spend 70 bn on defence just because of some imaginary threat of russia

Funky Papa said:
The Visegrad group are largely being run by a bunch of nationalistic dipshits who are happy to use NATO and even American influence in order to counter Brussels when it suits them. Poland is particularly obnoxious.
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Maybe the two speed europe (brussels newest buzzword) actually allows us to do something without Visegrad obstructing
 
Madness said:
Germany and many EU nations do not spend enough on their military and the US is right that Germany needs to do more and spend more for NATO and their military. However the point is, why is Trump refusing Merkel handshakes? Why is he doing childish things like this fake 300 billion bill. Who does that to another head of state, one who is an ally. He said China disrespected Obama by not rolling out a red carpet. Why is he doing this to a longtime ally and partner? It is because Merkel is everything he isn't. I have criticized her harshly for her regime change attempt in Greece, her boneheaded migrant decisions. But she is a far more capable leader than this orange shithead.
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Well, the percentage of official development assistance Germany spends is way higher than that of the US.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_development_aid_country_donors

I'd rather let my country spend its money in development than military..
 
Matt said:
The other NATO nations know they have been spending too little on their own militaries, which is why they agreed to these new targets in the first place.

The general point here is not wrong, Trumps methods and language are what's insane.
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The 2% target is decades old, it's not new. It's just relevant again due to Putins aggression and Trumps attitude.
 
Funky Papa said:
The Visegrad group are largely being run by a bunch of nationalistic dipshits who are happy to use NATO and even American influence in order to counter Brussels when it suits them. Poland is particularly obnoxious.
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That's what I'm wondering doe. Trump has blurted out some very concerning stuff regarding NATO in the past (calling it obsolete ect. IIRC). While he hasn't been quite as antagonistic lately (outside of stuff like this) any move to undermine NATO should be especially worrying for the eastern european countries. I doubt Germany in particular is too worried about it in comparison.
 
Matt said:
It's was reaffirmed 3 years ago, and the US has been pushing this behind the scenes for a while.

It's not wholly unreasonable.
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Maybe from the american point of view.

From the German point of view i don't see why we would need Nato if our military is around the same strength as Russia and we have our EU bros with defense treaties outside of Nato



Edit:

Germany has no imperal ambitions like the US all over the world. If we spend 2% on defence there is no need for us to stay in Nato and risk getting pulled into wars on the other side of the world (Afghanistan)
 
Xando said:
Maybe from the american point of view.

From the German point of view i don't see why we would need Nato if our military is around the same strength as Russia and we have our EU bros with defense treaties outside of Nato
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Deterrence and protection from nukes. It's very valuable to Germany which doesn't want Russia on its border again.
 
Madness said:
He probably can. The question is, why is the US openly hostile towards a strong ally and partner? Does Putin really have him by the balls that much. He is willing to call Americans themselves killers rather than have Putin be offended. Germany, Sweden, Canada, UK, Mexico, Australia, Japan, SK. The US is openly antagonizing allies or friendly countries and for what?
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Basic strongman politician tactics. He appears 'tough' on the people he can potentially, actually leverage without too much fallout for his actions. As much as this is bullshit, Germany aren't going to risk their alliance with the US where possible; thus Trump can scream to his supporters that he's 'going to Europe and asking for their money back', and then when he fails to do so, he can claim it's Europe being stingy at American expense. All bravado and bluster without actually doing a thing.
 
Xando said:
Maybe from the american point of view.

From the German point of view i don't see why we would need Nato if our military is around the same strength as Russia.
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First of all, spending the same amount as Russia isn't the same as being equal to Russia in military power.

Secondly, you would need NATO because it promotes stability, peace, and the fact that if a war between Germany and Russia did erupt, less Germans would die as they would have a coalition backing them up.

Thirdly, if America cut military spending or pulled back on commitments to German defense, Germany would have to increase its spending anyway. You are saying why do we need to spend money on ourselves if the Americans will just do it for us, which isn't really fair.

Lastly, I'm not saying the 2% target is actually the most reasonable point to be at. But according to this article even Merkel herself said Germany should and will increase defense spending.
 
ClosingADoor said:
Deterrence and protection from nukes. It's very valuable to Germany which doesn't want Russia on its border again.
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With 2% defence spending we could easily accept the french offer to share nuclear weapons (which they offered us multiple times). And if our military is on par with Russia we'd need no help to deter them from EU countries.

Open war with europe would lead to destruction of Russia and europe. With or without the US.

Matt said:
First of all, spending the same amount as Russia isn't the same as being equal to Russia in military power.
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I agree. Germany would be much stronger than Russia because it has a much larger economy to back up the military.

Matt said:
Secondly, you would need NATO because it promotes stability, peace, and the fact that if a war between Germany and Russia did erupt, less Germans would die as they would have a coalition backing them up.
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Conflict between Russia and Europe will lead to the destruction of each other. With or without US interference.
Matt said:
Thirdly, if America cut military spending or pulled back on commitments to German defense, Germany would have to increase its spending anyway. You are saying why do we need to spend money on ourselves if the Americans will just do it for us, which isn't really fair.
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It's not like Nato is a charity from america to europe. Without Nato US influence over europe would be much smaller
By having Nato the US is able to have military bases all over germany. All of which are vital to US interests, especially in the middle east.
 
I like this answer someone gave on quora
When President Donald Trump asked Chancellor Angela Merkel about Germany’s NATO contribution; she reminded him Germany rescued Greece from insolvency due to all the bad investments Goldman Sachs sold Greece, the same elite bankers running the Federal Reserve and Treasury Department of the United States of America
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.
 
Ugh, fuck that stupid orange fuck. I'm glad Merkel isn't going to be intimidated by such bullying tactics, Germany is doing fine as it is. The world needs to spend less, not more, on weapons of murder.
 
Nabbis said:
France has nukes. It's not like you can't buy/develop missile defense systems either.
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In a very unlikely scenario of Russia going to actually start some crazy wars close to Germany I'd be surprised if they didn't seriously start thinking about their own nuke program anyway. They certainly are more than capable of making them.
 
liquidtmd said:
Mmh9z43.jpg


For Trump, it was just another day.
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Thanks you for getting coke all over my monitor.... :-/

lol
 
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