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Trump handed Merkel 300bn bill for what germany "owed" Nato

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Good, that is not gonna happen anyway.
Considering Russia's recent behavior, unfortunately we can't completely rule out they would try the same tactic in other countries this shifting their border more towards Germany also.

France has nukes. It's not like you can't buy/develop missile defense systems either.
How expensive would that be though? And more allies in this is better.

With 2% defence spending we could easily accept the french offer to share nuclear weapons (which they offered us multiple times). And if our military is on par with Russia we'd need no help to deter them from EU countries.

Open war with europe would lead to destruction of Russia and europe. With or without the US.
Them your argument is they should go towards 2% and do it themselves. But then they are at the target and the US is happy also.

I think the EU should increase spending towards 2% in steps over the coming period. Just the way Trump is somehow expecting them to do it overnight and with threats is very stupid and damaging.
 

Saya

Member
No idea about the tap thing or its relevance, but the rest is pretty accurate:

c7pmyzcvsaa2y0or6uqg.jpg

Reminds me of this

 

chadskin

Member
Even for Trump, that is astoundingly absurd. Wow.

Well, the percentage of official development assistance Germany spends is way higher than that of the US.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_development_aid_country_donors

I'd rather let my country spend its money in development than military..

There was the suggestion around the Munich Security Conference to raise the NATO spending goal to 3% but to include spending on development aid as well.

I'm guessing, at least with this administration, that won't go anywhere, though.
 
He probably can. The question is, why is the US openly hostile towards a strong ally and partner? Does Putin really have him by the balls that much. He is willing to call Americans themselves killers rather than have Putin be offended. Germany, Sweden, Canada, UK, Mexico, Australia, Japan, SK. The US is openly antagonizing allies or friendly countries and for what?

I'm referring to the idea that he thinks he can treat Germany like some self-employed sole trader that he can threaten with corporate lawyers. This is a leading economy of Europe we're talking about here, not some tin-pot dictatorship.
 
I thought Obama the Muslim Kenyan socialist made terrible deals. Why is the orange cheeto encrusted tampon with the tiny hands trying to make other countries honor it?

I realize that the 2014 agreement sets 2% as a goal by 2024 and it's non-binding.
 

Lkr

Member
Trump can't tell the difference between mar-a-lago and NATO

“The alliance is not a club with a membership fee. The commitments relate to countries’ investment in their defence budgets.”
 

Nabbis

Member
How expensive would that be though? And more allies in this is better.

Id rather not ally myself with a bully to fight another bully, especially when i have other options. In the long run, it would probably be less expensive given the fact that we would not be pulled into another dumpster fire by US and at the same time have more power in geopolitics to craft our own interests.
 

Xando

Member
Them your argument is they should go towards 2% and do it themselves. But then they are at the target and the US is happy also.

I think the EU should increase spending towards 2% in steps over the coming period. Just the way Trump is somehow expecting them to do it overnight and with threats is very stupid and damaging.

Which is exactly what i'm saying. If we have to spend 2% anyway why stay in Nato and risk getting pulled into another afghanistan because of the US. If we have nukes and enough forces to stop the little green man there is no need for us or other EU countries to stay in nato
 

Sulik2

Member
Europe not meeting its defense spending committments is an actual problem. This is a boneheaded way to address it, but it does need to be addressed.
 

Matt

Member
Or Germany for al those US bases that they let the is army use. Time to pay rent you orange welfare queen 👑.
Germany benefits from those bases and wants them there. The amount of money they bring into Germany is huge.
 

Matt

Member
Which is exactly what i'm saying. If we have to spend 2% anyway why stay in Nato and risk getting pulled into another afghanistan because of the US. If we have nukes and enough forces to stop the little green mans there is no need for us or other EU countries to stay in nato
Germany developing and implementing nuclear weapons would probably cost more than simply moving to 2% and staying in NATO.

And again, Germany spending the same as Russia would not mean Germany has the same military power as Russia.
 
Germany at 2% spending would easily exceed Russia's spending while having the superior technological and industrial base - with the advantage to be able to get foreign know-how when necessary.

Trump doesn't understand that the political power of Europe to justify and defend American geopolitical adventures is cruicial for the USA. And more important than whatever non-binding number.
 

ThatGuy

Member
If Germany would spend 2 % of its GDP for military it would have the 4th highest military expenditures after (1) USA / (2) China / (3) Saudi Arabia. It would even surpass Russia by about 14 Bn $.
 

Xando

Member
Germany developing and implementing nuclear weapons would probably cost more than simply moving to 2% and staying in NATO.

And again, Germany spending the same as Russia would not mean Germany has the same military power as Russia.

That's the point. We don't even need to develop nukes since we'd be sharing them with our french friends. They offered this multiple times but Merkel declined.

And as i said before germany spending as much as russia on defence would actually put germany above russia due to the much larger economy and higher technological standard.
 
People only need to look what Russia actual purchased in the last 10 years.

It wasn't really a lot and one can discuss about the quality of the systems as well. People like to quote and refer to incredible numbers which are misleading at best because most of them are obsolete, not combat ready or don't even exist anymore.
 

Nightbird

Member
So he want's us to increase our military spending by 75%, and want's us to pay a €350B bill pulled from his ass for not doing so?

keep on dreaming Donny
 

Fantastapotamus

Wrong about commas, wrong about everything
I'm sure Germany is going to pay any minute now.

How couldn't they, after all Trumpo is the greatest negotiator of our time.
 

Matt

Member
That's the point. We don't even need to develop nukes since we'd be sharing them with our french friends. They offered this multiple times but Merkel declined.

And as i said before germany spending as much as russia on defence would actually put germany above russia due to the much larger economy and higher technological standard.
Firstly, France's nuclear arsenal is pretty small, and limited. They no longer have any land based missles, for example.

Secondly shit would cost more in Germany than it does in Russia. Every part of the military would be more expensive. Also you probably don't want to downplay Russian military tech.
 

DJKhaled

Member
So is it just consensus that Merkel is the leader of the West now? Surely she is the most respected powerful Western leader.
 

SaviourMK2

Member
I see our malen'kaya suka of a leader is hard at work. Gotta pay for all those vacation days, Taxpayer money can only last so long.
 

Vanillalite

Ask me about the GAF Notebook
Trump's an ass for handling it this way.

That being said everyone wants NATO, but nobody wants to fucking pay for it. At some point you gotta shit or get off the pot.
 

Xando

Member
Firstly, France's nuclear arsenal is pretty small, and limited. They no longer have any land based missles, for example.

So what? We don't need nukes to hit china or vladivostok.
All we need is one nuke capable of hitting moscow and putin is deterred.
Our subs are already capable of firing nukes. Park some in the baltic sea and atlantic and we are set

Secondly shit would cost more in Germany than it does in Russia. Every part of the military would be more expensive. Also you probably don't want to downplay Russian military tech.

Germany spending 2% on defence would have russia being outspend by 10-20bn. Its not like germany is gonna start building carriers or some shit so most money would be invested into Army/Airforce instead of being divided by Army/Airforce/Navy like russia

You are vastly overestimating russian military and more importantly its supply ability.
 

Dehnus

Member
Germany benefits from those bases and wants them there. The amount of money they bring into Germany is huge.

It is a two way street, you don't put up all that screaming, and then expect the Germans to take it all the time. The time of calling them "NAZI" and getting away with everything are long since past.

First of all, spending the same amount as Russia isn't the same as being equal to Russia in military power.
No, it would be stronger, due to a higher level of technology available to the Germans, and the economical means to back up a sustained war while having neighbours as friends... rather than neighbours as enemies.

Secondly, you would need NATO because it promotes stability, peace, and the fact that if a war between Germany and Russia did erupt, less Germans would die as they would have a coalition backing them up.
No it does not, NATO was a way for the US to defend themselves first and foremost. It also was a way to standardize military equipment. This latter in basic principle is a good idea. However it quickly corrupted into big US companies lobbying and forcing military spending to be spend at THEIR companies and not competitions. Disaster purchases like the "F104 Starfighter" that nobody wanted in Europe. Or the current JSF while there are other cheaper and better options available.

That is also where this 2% thing comes from. Military annalists know perfectly well that it means nothing and that each nation is different in what it spends for it's own defence. Especially if your country is the size of Germany, you don't need to spend as much as Russia who has far more landmass to cover. There are also other factors at work that make this 2% rule nothing more than a lobby number to hope that NATO members shop at Lockheed and Boeing.

It also never was a "coalition" as in all of NATO's defence plans, Europe's mainland was seen as "acceptable and expected loss". The plans are that the entity of the European Mainland becomes glass basically from Nukes, while the USA get's more acceptable fall out. Look it up, these plans are known to the public and are not secret by any manner.

So yes, your NATO isn't as nice as your leaders told you it is.

Thirdly, if America cut military spending or pulled back on commitments to German defense, Germany would have to increase its spending anyway. You are saying why do we need to spend money on ourselves if the Americans will just do it for us, which isn't really fair.

Lastly, I'm not saying the 2% target is actually the most reasonable point to be at. But according to this article even Merkel herself said Germany should and will increase defense spending.
Nobody asked you to do that. Nobody wanted you to go to Iraq and bankrupt yourself on the costs of that. Nobody asks you to have that many aircraft carriers to protect your interest and "project your power". Much of your spending is NOT NEEDED! and nobody in the world asked for it. The amount you spend on your military is INSANE, and on top of that it is very inefficient for the money you spend on it. You spend so much on things that you have thousands of aircraft you don't even use and are just rusting away in deserts. It's fucking wasteful! And for what? Oh yeah. defence contractors milking your government and tax dollars with cheap rethoric about "veterans!" and "heroes!" and "needing the tools to do the job!". When they in fact do NOT have the tools to do the job or to get proper healthcare. As most of these contracts pushed by politicians are to buy some new aircraft or tank that in the thousands, of which only a few hundred at most will be effectively used during their lifetime!

So yes, nobody asked you to do that. And all of us will think it very reasonable if you just say "no!" to these lobbies for a change. Yes invest in your veterans, but you do not need 800 Apache helicopters in active service when you only use like 150 over the lifetime of the bloody thing. There is so much bloody overhead there and fat that could be trimmed, without ever impacting actual people working there or benefits for veterans that it is mindboggling.

A simple law that trims the fat back down to say 2.5% with half of what is saved going to soldier benefits and veteran benefits (like healthcare and college), would basically clean up a lot of your problems in the Army.
 

Fantastapotamus

Wrong about commas, wrong about everything
Nobody here thinks the Russian military is weak but the idea that Putin could just waltz right through Europe if he wanted to is hilarious.
 

Matt

Member
So what? We don't need nukes to hit china or vladivostok.
All we need is one nuke capable of hitting moscow and putin is deterred.
Our subs are already capable of firing nukes. Park some in the baltic sea and atlantic and we are set
Do...do you really think that's how nuclear deterrence works? All you need is one?

Germany spending 2% on defence would have russia being outspend by 10-20bn. Its not like germany is gonna start building carriers or some shit so most money would be invested into Army/Airforce instead of being divided by Army/Airforce/Navy like russia

You are vastly overestimating russian military and more importantly its supply ability.
Russia across its active military and reserves/paramilitary has 15 times the manpower Germany currently does. Do you really think Germany can match that while spending the same as Russia?
 

i-Lo

Member
What a great negotiator...

Anyone know whether he tried his typical alpha handshake with Merkel?

Reminds me of this

Clearly average Americans prefer the person who "hasn't lost touch with them" and their "economic anxiety".
 

Acorn

Member
What a great negotiator...

Anyone know whether he tried his typical alpha handshake with Merkel?



Clearly average Americans prefer the person who "hasn't lost touch with them" and their "economic anxiety".
He refused to shake her hand at the photo op. Someone told him about cooties during lunch.
 

Xando

Member
Nobody here thinks the Russian military is weak but the idea that Putin could just waltz right through Europe if he wanted to is hilarious.

Even if for some reason he'd blitz to the german border he'd get nuked when reaching warsaw. Nato plans never had a conventional defense for europe. Nato always planned to use nukes in germany when russia invaded (80s) or in poland.

Do...do you really think that's how nuclear deterrence works? All you need is one?
Do you think Putin is willing to sacrifice moscow for his imperal ambitions?
Russia across its active military and reserves/paramilitary has 15 times the manpower Germany currently does. Do you really think Germany can match that while spending the same as Russia?

I'm not sure why they would need to match russian manpower. It's nice to have a army of 3 million people but you also need to supply them.

Russia not able to supply 1 million soldiers in active combat. Then again this is all nonsense because open war with Europe will end in nuclear war anyway. Neither Europe nor Russia will be able to occupy each other
 

numble

Member
Do...do you really think that's how nuclear deterrence works? All you need is one?


Russia across its active military and reserves/paramilitary has 15 times the manpower Germany currently does. Do you really think Germany can match that while spending the same as Russia?
NATO even ex-US includes more than Germany.
 



What a fucking embarrassment for the United States. Not even little Bush was that stupid, that vapid, that incoherent, that fucking clueless and ignorant. But oh noes the "people" wanted a businessman outsider to SHAKE THINGS UP.
Orange racist deplorable.

Save us Merkel. Save us, and if Germany saves the world this time around...
 

Xando

Member
I assumed the conversation we were having was Germany leaving NATO, as it was based on an idea of Germany going it alone (except also with France's nukes).

No the conversation would be Germany and the EU going alone.


There are defence agreements between EU countries which i personally would like to see deepened to be able to stop the need for Nato
 
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