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[Azurro]

I saw this video a long time ago that I think is really good at putting things in perspective as far as humanitarian efforts are concerned with immigration

Man, I thought the guy had an interesting point, but it quickly devolved into right wing propaganda. The guy basically called me a traitor for emigrating legally in a skilled field and not stay in my own country, lol.

 

[Death Dealer]

The guy basically called me a traitor for emigrating legally in a skilled field and not stay in my own country, lol.

It's not right wing propaganda. That topic was recently discussed in my extremely left wing sociology class. According to the conflict theory of theoretical sociological perspectives, first world countries like the US cause a "brain drain" on less developed countries. We strip them of their smartest and most capable people. People that could help those less developed countries progress into a better society. Now I can't blame someone with an in demand skill for wanting to immigrate here. But you can't deny that it hurts whatever country they immigrated from when they leave to move to the US. I work in health care. Many of the physicians I work with immigrated from foreign countries. If I was born in India, and was smart enough to become a doctor, I woudn't stay there if I had a choice to move to the US. A doctor in India makes less money than a nurse in the US, so you can imagine what an improvement it is for them to move. Same goes for any other professional field, engineering, computer science, etc.

 

[Azurro]

It's not right wing propaganda. That topic was recently discussed in my extremely left wing sociology class. According to the conflict theory of theoretical sociological perspectives, first world countries like the US cause a "brain drain" on less developed countries. We strip them of their smartest and most capable people. People that could help those less developed countries progress into a better society. Now I can't blame someone with an in demand skill for wanting to immigrate here. But you can't deny that it hurts whatever country they immigrated from when they leave to move to the US. I work in health care. Many of the physicians I work with immigrated from foreign countries. If I was born in India, and was smart enough to become a doctor, I woudn't stay there if I had a choice to move to the US. A doctor in India makes less money than a nurse in the US, so you can imagine what an improvement it is for them to move. Same goes for any other professional field, engineering, computer science, etc.

It is right wing propaganda, the numbers are the interesting part I took from it, but his interpretation of them is what you have to look at and the tone that he applies when talking about anyone that emigrates. First he calls Mexico a poor country, which, it is not. As he himself said, there are over ~5.5 billion people with a lower average wage, there's a significant middle class population with highly developed cities, public services and so on. Are there issues? Yes, there are many, in particular a large number of population is poor, but that doesn't mean the country itself is poor.

Second, it plays to the feeling of intense individuality and American exceptionalism by saying that skilled people that stay in their own country are heroes, decrying the ones that don't stay. That is ridiculous, because it's not as if all legal skilled migrants are running away from war or poverty, you can get a very good quality of life in Mexico as well and it's a little silly to suggest that it is in the power of a few people to completely change the economical and cultural landscape of a country.

Third of all, he implies immigration is not needed, because it hurts the local economy. He's talking about farmers, blue collar workers and so on, but legal immigration does not deal in that framework and he mixes both legal and illegal immigration into one. First of all, legal immigration is meant to fill a need in the workforce where the local population is insufficient to fill the positions needed. For example, I moved to a country in Central Europe that is not particularly fond of immigrants, but the local firms have a booming economy and not enough skilled people to fill the positions needed. Illegal immigration on the other hand, does hurt local blue collar workers, as they can do the same unskilled labor for lower wages, which has caused the resentment towards Mexicans the US displays now.

 

[Azurro]

I can't edit my post, and just wanted to add this. Brain drain does happen to a small degree, but it is exaggerated when you compare the numbers of skilled people that emigrate compared to the number of graduates each year, especially in a country as populous as Mexico, it's such a tiny amount that it doesn't really matter. And again, I don't appreciate the implication that I'm some sort of traitor, or that I'm turning back on the country where I grew up just because I am a bit more adventurous that the average person and enjoy living abroad.

Again, he's pandering to the ultra nationalism feel that Americans are fed as propaganda every day in TV and movies. Taking all of that into account, how is it NOT right wing propaganda?

 

[Cato]

It is right wing propaganda,

No it is not ONLY right wing propaganda. Read his post again.

The extreme right and the extreme left actually agree on this, but for different reasons.

Alt-right: Does not want best and the smartest to immigrate because they don't like immigrants/brown people.
Alt-left: Does not want the best and the smartest to immigrate because it cases a brain drain in their home coutry.

It is just like when students at Evergreen college wants race segregated housing. Richard Spencer also want that.

 

[Azurro]

No it is not ONLY right wing propaganda. Read his post again.

The extreme right and the extreme left actually agree on this, but for different reasons.

Alt-right: Does not want best and the smartest to immigrate because they don't like immigrants/brown people.
Alt-left: Does not want the best and the smartest to immigrate because it cases a brain drain in their home coutry.

It is just like when students at Evergreen college wants race segregated housing. Richard Spencer also want that.

I was talking about the video, and then addressed his points later on. In the case of Mexico, it's more of a talking point than anything else, a small brain drain does happen, but the effect is so minimal compared when you look at the people that emigrated vs the number of graduates every year.

As for the "fuck immigrants" people, well, those can't be helped. They are the same kind of people that don't even like people of their own race in their own neighborhood, lol.

 

[PuppetMaster]

The US climate right now, summarized in one tweet. Looks like a lost episode of Star Trek TNG where they find a planet where half of people can´t talk to the another half. But even Picard will not solve this.

Its amplified because of people like that on Twitter and other social media who can get easy clicks/follows/mentions just by being extremely over the top.

This goes for both left and right.

Its like that old PA comic about Normal Person + Anonymity + Audience = Total Fuckwad)

https://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2004/03/19

Except now its become so normalized in peoples bubbles that anonymity s is not even required in the equation. Just internet and an audience.

 

[Nicktendo86]

Many in the media don't seem to get what is going on at all. I'd bet all most average people see from the reports is Trump being tough on immigration which is exactly what he was elected for, they see him fulfilling his promises and he will win a second term, much to the head scratching of the media and liberals.

Similar situation in Italy, the league and 5 star now hold about 60% in the polls, people are rewarding them for their tough stance. Look at the AfD pushing the CSU in Bavaria etc etc. People feel they have been ignored on immigration for too long and are punishing the mainstream for it.

 

[llien]

approval going up 2% is within the margin of error.

That is true, but one would think his rating would go down, since he is "separating children, even girls, from their mothers".

 

[ic3cait]

That's an interesting way of reading the poll. As if it's "ammo" against the strawman that Democrats want open borders and are pro-illegal immigration.

All Democrat Senators signed on to a bill that would've prevented federal authorities from arresting anybody within 100 miles of the border for any crime. Re-read that previous sentence.

 

[dragonfart28]

Rasmussen has been showing a drop in Trump's numbers.

 

[bucyou]

I have to constantly remind myself that forums/Facebook/Twitter does not equal the real world/county at large.

If you based it on Twitter alone the kids in camps story was the biggest thing ever. A torpedo that would scuttle the most unsinkable politician. Seeing it barely register nation-wide is kinda weird.

Its a lefty contest to see who is the most outraged

 

[oagboghi2]

All Democrat Senators signed on to a bill that would've prevented federal authorities from arresting anybody within 100 miles of the border for any crime. Re-read that previous sentence.

LOL. This party is a fucking joke.

 

[Nemesis Prime]

Looking for an un-biased neutral answer here. I struggle to find real answers online because it seems depending on who you ask, the answers will vary and each side will have their own equally valid points to back each other up.

But it seems to me as a non-American observer, who doesn't follow too closely, and is slightly fond of Trump (I like his personality and find him very interesting), he is doing quite well as a president. I know there are some who expected him to completely ruin the country, but I seem to see a lot of statistics showing a big improvement to the economy, and several improvements in different departments, especially the space department, which is something that interests me greatly.

Would love to know how he is actually doing, if he's positive or negative for the country, if he's better than previous presidents, if he's just another half way decent president?

 

[ic3cait]

LOL. This party is a fucking joke.

But they totally don't support open borders and illegal immigration. They just don't support securing the borders or arresting illegal aliens.

 

[Captain Zyrain]

Looking for an un-biased neutral answer here. I struggle to find real answers online because it seems depending on who you ask, the answers will vary and each side will have their own equally valid points to back each other up.

But it seems to me as a non-American observer, who doesn't follow too closely, and is slightly fond of Trump (I like his personality and find him very interesting), he is doing quite well as a president. I know there are some who expected him to completely ruin the country, but I seem to see a lot of statistics showing a big improvement to the economy, and several improvements in different departments, especially the space department, which is something that interests me greatly.

Would love to know how he is actually doing, if he's positive or negative for the country, if he's better than previous presidents, if he's just another half way decent president?

If you go to left leaning places, he's the worst ever, about to be impeached/arrested/hanged at any moment for any number of things, and he's tearing American apart (lisa). The L's don't stop coming with this administration.

If you go to right leaning places, he's amazing, he's getting so much accomplished. he's able to break through DC gridlock and get real gains and progress. The W's just won't stop coming for this administration.

Personally I don't believe either side, and I think there is truth and falsehoods everywhere. He's not overwhelmingly popular, he is getting things on his list accomplished, I don't think he's going to be taken down at any moment, but he's also not helping the countries divide get any better, but isn't alone in that.

I wish I could travel 10 years into the future and look back and see what the opinion is, because I honestly don't know what it'd look like.

 

[Bolivar687]

The question is whether the 24/7 media outrage is having the opposite effect, or of it is working and his numbers would actually be higher.

 

[Deleted member 12837]

All Democrat Senators signed on to a bill that would've prevented federal authorities from arresting anybody within 100 miles of the border for any crime. Re-read that previous sentence.

LOL. This party is a fucking joke.

Again, that's a misleading statement.

• Collins said it "essentially" does that. I'd like to see the actual language in the bill so we know what that really means.
• Feinstein didn't seem to care at all about removing whatever language or provisions were worrying Collins, so they can't feel that strongly about it, let alone believe it's tenant of their platform

That's also still not the same thing as being "pro-illegal immigration" or wanting open borders.

Without reading the bill in question, my guess is that it forces federal authorities to deport the families (or require them to report back for a hearing) rather than arrest them, which coincidentally is exactly what the majority of Americans feel should happen too! Only 15% of the polled Americans believe that families caught entering illegally should be arrested.

But sure, lulz Leftists, or whatever.

edit: ah, here's the relevant part:

An agent or officer of a designated agency shall be prohibited from removing a child from his or her parent or legal guardian, at or near the port of entry or within 100 miles of the border of the United States, unless one of the following has occurred:

https://www.feinstein.senate.gov/pu...EAD252B3F78.keeping-families-together-act.pdf

So...absolutely nothing like what was claimed. There's some fears about the ambiguity of the language (http://thefederalist.com/2018/06/19...ents-commit-federal-crimes-get-off-scot-free/) but it's a bit of a stretch, and those "loopsholes" for abuse can easily be amended and closed before fully passing the bill. Nothing about the spirit of the bill has anything to do with banning the arrest of "anybody within 100 miles of the border for any crime"

 

[Naudi]

Looking for an un-biased neutral answer here. I struggle to find real answers online because it seems depending on who you ask, the answers will vary and each side will have their own equally valid points to back each other up.

But it seems to me as a non-American observer, who doesn't follow too closely, and is slightly fond of Trump (I like his personality and find him very interesting), he is doing quite well as a president. I know there are some who expected him to completely ruin the country, but I seem to see a lot of statistics showing a big improvement to the economy, and several improvements in different departments, especially the space department, which is something that interests me greatly.

Would love to know how he is actually doing, if he's positive or negative for the country, if he's better than previous presidents, if he's just another half way decent president?

Overall he has been terrible for America, we have never been this divided and he is slowly erroding democracy as we know it. Facts no longer matter cause he says so. Only fox news is real cause he says so. Mexicans are all rapists and murderers. Refugees from shithole countrys are destroying our economy(they arent). White people are victims(lol).The rich got yuge tax breaks! We got a Costco membership. He is an idiot and constantly break things only to sign a paper and say how awesome he is for fixing his fuck up. Oh and some nazi's are good people. But yeah unemployment has maintained its downward trend!



That's just the tip of the icebergreally. Its bad. Real bad.

 

[ic3cait]

my guess is that it forces federal authorities to deport the families (or require them to report back for a hearing)

That's like saying, "my guess is that it forces them to say yes (or no.)"

rather than arrest them, which coincidentally is exactly what the majority of Americans feel should happen too! Only 15% of the polled Americans believe that families caught entering illegally should be arrested.

Are you talking about this poll from CBS? Yeah, only 15% want them 'arrested,' but 48% want them sent back, as a family, to their country of origin compared to only 21% who wanted Obama's unofficial open borders policy re-instated;

So...absolutely nothing like what was claimed.

Sorry I took (D) Senator Dianne Feinstein on her word. My mistake. I won't do that again.

 

[Deleted member 12837]

Are you talking about this poll from CBS? Yeah, only 15% want them 'arrested,' but 48% want them sent back, as a family, to their country of origin compared to only 21% who wanted Obama's unofficial open borders policy re-instated;

Not sure what Obama is relevant to mention, but yes that's the poll.

Sorry I took (D) Senator Dianne Feinstein on her word. My mistake. I won't do that again.

No problem. Lesson learned.

It's always a good idea to read the source material itself instead of relying on the interpretation of others (or a 3 second soundbite at the end of an interview).

 

[ic3cait]

Overall he has been terrible for America, we have never been this divided and he is slowly erroding democracy as we know it. Facts no longer matter cause he says so. Only fox news is real cause he says so. Mexicans are all rapists and murderers. Refugees from shithole countrys are destroying our economy(they arent). White people are victims(lol).The rich got yuge tax breaks! We got a Costco membership. He is an idiot and constantly break things only to sign a paper and say how awesome he is for fixing his fuck up. Oh and some nazi's are good people. But yeah unemployment has maintained its downward trend!

Is this meant as sarcasm? Because right off the bat, I'm pretty we were more divided when we were killing each other in large quantities during a little thing only a few know about called the Civil War.

Not sure what Obama is relevant to mention, but yes that's the poll.

That was his (and the current Democrat) policy regarding families at the border. 63% of the population are diametrically opposed.

 

[Death Dealer]

I wish I could travel 10 years into the future and look back and see what the opinion is, because I honestly don't know what it'd look like.

Whether you agree or disagree with his policies, one thing is true, his administration has been consequential. It's making an impact.

Overall he has been terrible for America, we have never been this divided and he is slowly erroding democracy as we know it. Facts no longer matter cause he says so. Only fox news is real cause he says so. Mexicans are all rapists and murderers. Refugees from shithole countrys are destroying our economy(they arent). White people are victims(lol).The rich got yuge tax breaks! We got a Costco membership. He is an idiot and constantly break things only to sign a paper and say how awesome he is for fixing his fuck up. Oh and some nazi's are good people. But yeah unemployment has maintained its downward trend!

Trump ran on disrupting the system. His campaign wasn't about being a centrist. Obama ran on that platform. No red states or blue states, just the United States. I think the conservative backlash to Obama was mild compared to Trump's detractors. I think I'm pretty neutral since I voted for both of them.

"Trump is slowly erroding democracy." I think that's so over the top. Look at American history. We've had a lot of controversial presidents. And somehow we pulled through. Trump is not a dictator.

The media's reporting of the "Russia collusion" story has made me trust them even less. It's obvious the entrenched bureaucracy of the FBI, State Dept, and intelligence services were working to undermine Trump's candidacy and presidency. That is a threat to democracy. The whole underpinings of the FISA warrant and special counsel were founded on lies. Trump respects Putin. He isn't working for Putin. There is a difference.

 

[Deleted member 12837]

That was his (and the current Democrat) policy regarding families at the border. 63% of the population are diametrically opposed.

Gonna need receipts that their official platform is “all illegal immigrants should be set free while awaiting their hearing”.

I find it hard to believe it was Obama’s policy, anyway, given the amount of criticism leveled at him for using detention centers at the border and also deporting record numbers of people.

 

[oagboghi2]

Again, that's a misleading statement.

• Collins said it "essentially" does that. I'd like to see the actual language in the bill so we know what that really means.
• Feinstein didn't seem to care at all about removing whatever language or provisions were worrying Collins, so they can't feel that strongly about it, let alone believe it's tenant of their platform

That's also still not the same thing as being "pro-illegal immigration" or wanting open borders.

Without reading the bill in question, my guess is that it forces federal authorities to deport the families (or require them to report back for a hearing) rather than arrest them, which coincidentally is exactly what the majority of Americans feel should happen too! Only 15% of the polled Americans believe that families caught entering illegally should be arrested.

But sure, lulz Leftists, or whatever.

edit: ah, here's the relevant part:



https://www.feinstein.senate.gov/pu...EAD252B3F78.keeping-families-together-act.pdf

So...absolutely nothing like what was claimed. There's some fears about the ambiguity of the language (http://thefederalist.com/2018/06/19...ents-commit-federal-crimes-get-off-scot-free/) but it's a bit of a stretch, and those "loopsholes" for abuse can easily be amended and closed before fully passing the bill. Nothing about the spirit of the bill has anything to do with banning the arrest of "anybody within 100 miles of the border for any crime"

"Some fears" That bill pretty much says they are exempt from any crime. You can't seperate them from their children, "so they can't go to jail. The "loopholes" are so easily fixed, that the democrats never bothered to fix them? What are the odds?

It's a typically stupid idea, written with emotion and not logic, and more importantly, makes it even more obvious that this party is pro open border. I mean, how much more obvious can it be? Do they need to campaign a literal "open borders" bill?

 

[diablos991]

>His overall approving rating rose 2 points to 41 percent

That is just crazy

It isn't that crazy.
Plenty of Americans support strong borders and strong rules regarding illegal immigration.

Problem is those people are afraid to speak out because it can easily cost them their livelihood in today's political climate.

 

[Deleted member 12837]

"Some fears" That bill pretty much says they are exempt from any crime. You can't seperate them from their children, "so they can't go to jail.

Well, at least the goalposts have been moved from from "the Democrats want to let anyone commit any crime within 100 miles of the border and totally get away with it" to "you can commit a crime and get away with it if you have your child with you and if a court doesn't believe it's in the child's best interest to be separated from the offending adult and if a judge interprets the bill loosely enough to decide to throw out the case based on the grounds of the bill." So that's progress.

It's a typically stupid idea, written with emotion and not logic, and more importantly, makes it even more obvious that this party is pro open border.

Putting protections in place to prevent children from being separated from their parents at the border has nothing to do with open borders. And you know that. Otherwise you'd have to claim that Trump's recent EO makes him pro-open borders as well.

And a stupid idea? I'm at least glad that opinions like that are in the minority. An overwhelming majority disagree with the separation of parents and children at the border.

You at least got one thing right. The language in the bill could be tightened up. I'm sure there have been worse first drafts. It's not like it was going to get Republican support anyway.

I mean, how much more obvious can it be? Do they need to campaign a literal "open borders" bill?

Yes. If your argument is that the Democratic platform is pro-open borders, you would have to give evidence of them campaigning on literally that, as a party platform. That's how these things work.

 

[bucyou]

"Trump successfully gets Democrats to scream bloody murder when Trump does something to stop illegal immigration… and it will sound to many people that Democrats are defending illegal immigration, that they are for open borders.”


lol even chris matthews gets it, kinda

 

[ic3cait]

"Trump successfully gets Democrats to scream bloody murder when Trump does something to stop illegal immigration… and it will sound to many people that Democrats are defending illegal immigration, that they are for open borders.”


lol even chris matthews gets it, kinda

Remember this?

 

[jadedm17]

Nothing really crazy if you look at average american.
Trump is literally average american issues wise.

It is elite caste that doesn't understand that Trump is popular because he thinks and behaves like most of people would. He doesn't play politics game like everyone else in politics. He might say stupid stuff but at least he is honest about his feelings while 99% of politicians will say stuff they don't actually believe in.

Yes, South Park covered that low bar when Mackey ran for POTUS and everyone cheered as he truthfully said "I have no idea what I'm doing, don't vote for me I'm not capable"

Truth is great but I'd rather not have someone who is an idiot.

 

[mckmas8808]

That is true, but one would think his rating would go down, since he is "separating children, even girls, from their mothers".

Nah not really. Not when the economy is pushing pretty well and you know 30%-40% of the country completely agrees with his stance on immigration.

 

[dolabla]

Another new poll released showing his numbers going up. This time it's the Harvard CAPS/Harris poll: http://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/394384-poll-trump-approval-rating-ticks-up-to-47-percent

President Trump’s approval rating has ticked up to 47 percent in the new Harvard CAPS/Harris poll released exclusively to The Hill, a two-point hike from last month.

“[I’m] surprised that given the misstep on immigration that the president’s approval is holding steady or even increasing on the strength of the economy and the success of North Korea," said Harvard CAPS/Harris Poll co-director Mark Penn. "He is holding his base and doing particularly well with men."

Trump's approval rating was lifted in part by a 10-point climb among Hispanic voters.

 

[Super Mario]

Trump continues to get victory after victory. While the Liberal news keeps pushing doom and gloom, and the people are starting to see past that.

Democrats need a serious platform change. You're not going to rile up a crowd to vote for you because you defended illegal immigrants.

 

[Nemesis Prime]

Overall he has been terrible for America, we have never been this divided and he is slowly erroding democracy as we know it. Facts no longer matter cause he says so. Only fox news is real cause he says so. Mexicans are all rapists and murderers. Refugees from shithole countrys are destroying our economy(they arent). White people are victims(lol).The rich got yuge tax breaks! We got a Costco membership. He is an idiot and constantly break things only to sign a paper and say how awesome he is for fixing his fuck up. Oh and some nazi's are good people. But yeah unemployment has maintained its downward trend!



That's just the tip of the icebergreally. Its bad. Real bad.

Exact type of answer I was hoping to avoid. You've written a whole lot without saying anything. Throwing out buzzwords isn't useful and I'm looking for the facts and numbers, not some headline level sentences.

 

[Death Dealer]

Democrats need a serious platform change. You're not going to rile up a crowd to vote for you because you defended illegal immigrants.

It's like they're afraid to be seen as doing anything against illegal immigrants. (which is usually conflated with legal immigration)
Trump offered to legalize almost 2 million people, more than were even in the DACA program, but democrats turned it down, because they didn't want the extra enforcement that he wanted in return. Much of the hardcore democratic base is pretty far left on immigration enforcement, (no borders, no person is illegal etc) they can't move an inch without pissing them off. It's funny, because you can find statements from prominent democratic politicians, including President Obama, from just 5-10 years ago, that were much stronger on illegal immigration than anything they're said since Trump was elected.

 

[NickFire]

It's like they're afraid to be seen as doing anything against illegal immigrants. (which is usually conflated with legal immigration)
Trump offered to legalize almost 2 million people, more than were even in the DACA program, but democrats turned it down, because they didn't want the extra enforcement that he wanted in return. Much of the hardcore democratic base is pretty far left on immigration enforcement, (no borders, no person is illegal etc) they can't move an inch without pissing them off. It's funny, because you can find statements from prominent democratic politicians, including President Obama, from just 5-10 years ago, that were much stronger on illegal immigration than anything they're said since Trump was elected.

I'm sure they don't want to piss off the extremists for sure, but by and large they just refuse to do anything that would give the president a win. Their more extreme supporters claim the dems put country over party, but keeping your eyes open for a few months quickly shows that's a joke. As you said, 1.8 million dreamers could be citizens by now or close to it. But the dems say no because they suddenly care about wasting a few billion dollars, and apparently still support the diversity lottery which almost no one actually supports. With respect to open borders, the minute they all remove the fences and gates from their homes / communities, is the second I might think they are serious.

 

[Kaban]

As you said, 1.8 million dreamers could be citizens by now or close to it. But the dems say no because they suddenly care about wasting a few billion dollars, and apparently still support the diversity lottery which almost no one actually supports. With respect to open borders, the minute they all remove the fences and gates from their homes / communities, is the second I might think they are serious.

Actually 1.8 million dreamers would be closer to being citizens had Trump not rescinded the DACA program and used their livelihoods as a bargaining chip. If Trump wanted dreamers to have a pathway to citizenship, a bill would have been passed by now. Beefing up border security is one thing, but building a wall that is essentially a monument to one man's vanity is downright farcical.

Democrats have always had strong stances on borders, not something I've always agreed with, but to say that they want open borders is a lie. Arguing against family separation =/= arguing for open borders, but to Trump, he'll always take the opportunity to argue in bad faith.

 

[cryptoadam]

Seriously starting to think Trumps going to win again. Dems need a populist message that goes beyond fuck trump.

They got nothing.

They can't move to the center and attract disenfranchised Republicans because their base is to far left and too radicalized.

Dems only hope is that Trump pulls a Bush the 2nd and starts a really unpopular war like the Iraq war that tanks the economy. If not they are SOL and unbelievably Trump will serve 2 terms.

Problem will be that after 8 years the Dems will become even more radicalized and driven even further left so they may have to wait until 2024 or 2028 to get a president back in the WH.

 

[ic3cait]

Actually 1.8 million dreamers would be closer to being citizens had Trump not rescinded the DACA program and used their livelihoods as a bargaining chip.

It was an unconstitutional order by Obama. He did not have the authority to grant these people blanket amnesty like that. Don't you get it? Trump undoing it was following the law that Obama broke. Holy shit.

If Trump wanted dreamers to have a pathway to citizenship, a bill would have been passed by now. Beefing up border security is one thing, but building a wall that is essentially a monument to one man's vanity is downright farcical.

He literally put an offer on the table that would've legalized 1.8 million illegal aliens in exchange for sensible immigration reform (drop the diversity visas and chain migration and replace it with a merit-based system) and build a fucking wall on the border (walls do work.) But Democrats refused. Because they really care about the DACA kids. That's their number 1 priority. Democrats, in the minority, were given a pathway to citizenship for every single DACA kid in the country and refused.

 

[Super Mario]

Actually 1.8 million dreamers would be closer to being citizens had Trump not rescinded the DACA program and used their livelihoods as a bargaining chip. If Trump wanted dreamers to have a pathway to citizenship, a bill would have been passed by now. Beefing up border security is one thing, but building a wall that is essentially a monument to one man's vanity is downright farcical.

Democrats have always had strong stances on borders, not something I've always agreed with, but to say that they want open borders is a lie. Arguing against family separation =/= arguing for open borders, but to Trump, he'll always take the opportunity to argue in bad faith.

Welcome to politics. 1.8 million dreamers could also have legal status at this moment if Democrats did something about it when they were in power.

Democrats played the victim card (as usual). "You can't do this! What about the innocent dreamers?!" and Trump called their bluff. He said fine, I would allow them to stay if we can fix the rest. Democrats want no movement on the issue. They've proven time and time again to want to keep everything as-is. That's how you get victims to support you.

 

[Kaban]

It was an unconstitutional order by Obama. He did not have the authority to grant these people blanket amnesty like that. Don't you get it? Trump undoing it was following the law that Obama broke. Holy shit.



He literally put an offer on the table that would've legalized 1.8 million illegal aliens in exchange for sensible immigration reform (drop the diversity visas and chain migration and replace it with a merit-based system) and build a fucking wall on the border (walls do work.) But Democrats refused. Because they really care about the DACA kids. That's their number 1 priority. Democrats, in the minority, were given a pathway to citizenship for every single DACA kid in the country and refused.

Once again, they would have had a pathway to citizenship had Trump had not rescinded it to begin with. Also, the border America has now can be improved on in ways that don't require huge wall, and the demands for a merit-based system under Trump would be so unreasonable that most Americans wouldn't pass it. But hey, as long as we have more Olympic medalists living in this country, then it's fine, right?

Also, the DACA law was the right call from Obama, and most Americans still support it, AND the majority of Americans also oppose the border wall. My grandparents were granted amnesty when they escaped their country, and it was the right thing to do here as well.

Democrats, in the minority, were given a pathway to citizenship for every single DACA kid in the country and refused.

This isn't even something that had to be negotiated to begin with. Like I said, he's using them as bargaining chips. It's directly his fault that the DREAMERS are in this situation, but he gaslights enough that he can re-shift blame for his shitty ideas onto someone else, and you fall for it, hook line and sinker.

 

[Kaban]

Also, if you want to talk about the topic, perhaps it would be more apt to celebrate once his approval ratings are - oh, I don't know - higher than his disapproval ratings?

 

[ic3cait]

Once again, they would have had a pathway to citizenship had Trump had not rescinded it to begin with.

Wrong. There was no "pathway to citizenship." DACA was a constantly-renewing temporary work/student visa.

Also, the border America has now can be improved on in ways that don't require huge wall

Don't really care about your opinions regarding the wall.

and the demands for a merit-based system under Trump would be so unreasonable that most Americans wouldn't pass it.

Lucky them then, huh? All American legal citizens, white, black, hispanic, asian, indian, islander, etc. don't have to worry about passing any immigration tests. But why the fuck should we allow poor uneducated masses to flood our country? Why the fuck should we not want the best? Why should we add a single person to this country who doesn't contribute to this country? You're literally arguing against merit based immigration. Are you on drugs?

But hey, as long as we have more Olympic medalists living in this country, then it's fine, right?

I couldn't give a shit about the Olympics, or sports in general. I don't think they add anything of value to society.

Also, the DACA law was the right call from Obama, and most Americans still support it, AND the majority of Americans also oppose the border wall. My grandparents were granted amnesty when they escaped their country, and it was the right thing to do here as well.

Oh, so we should continue to have open borders, forever, (because granting blanket amnesty just encourages more illegal immigration) because it's "the morally right thing to do" in your opinion? Okay. Sure. We can erase the borders as soon as we end all government programs. Welfare, food stamps, housing, education, medical coverage. All of it. You don't want that? Then we enforce the fucking borders.

This isn't even something that had to be negotiated to begin with. Like I said, he's using them as bargaining chips. It's directly his fault that the DREAMERS are in this situation, but he gaslights enough that he can re-shift blame for his shitty ideas onto someone else, and you fall for it, hook line and sinker.

No. The "children who were brought here through no fault of their own" weren't brought here by the US government. They were brought here by their parents who committed a crime. If my parents rob a federally insured bank, and hide the money in my crib, I don't get to keep the money. Oh, and we also get separated. The 1.8 million DACA kids getting an actual pathway to citizenship under Trump's proposal *was the compromise part* that you don't seem to understand. You think Democrats, while in the minority, should get everything they want while giving conservatives nothing.

 

[Kaban]

I couldn't give a shit about the Olympics, or sports in general. I don't think they add anything of value to society.

.

Great, then you think a merit-based system is bullshit as well! Glad we agreed on that.

As for the rest of your points, there isn't anything I can say that hasn't been said. We aren't going to meet in the middle on this one. Also, granting amnesty to a group of people seeking shelter from violence doesn't transform the receiving countries into the chaotic hellholes you think they'll become, even though there are always issues that can arise. And it certainly isn't the same as arguing for open borders. This isn't an all-or-nothing argument I'm making, just to clarify.

Anyway, I'm done for the evening, gotta reach a deadline. But would happily discuss further another day.

 

[Panda1]

Once again, they would have had a pathway to citizenship had Trump had not rescinded it to begin with. Also, the border America has now can be improved on in ways that don't require huge wall, and the demands for a merit-based system under Trump would be so unreasonable that most Americans wouldn't pass it. But hey, as long as we have more Olympic medalists living in this country, then it's fine, right?

Also, the DACA law was the right call from Obama, and most Americans still support it, AND the majority of Americans also oppose the border wall. My grandparents were granted amnesty when they escaped their country, and it was the right thing to do here as well.



This isn't even something that had to be negotiated to begin with. Like I said, he's using them as bargaining chips. It's directly his fault that the DREAMERS are in this situation, but he gaslights enough that he can re-shift blame for his shitty ideas onto someone else, and you fall for it, hook line and sinker.

You love your dreamers. Why cant black people and Asians dream too?

 

[NickFire]

Actually 1.8 million dreamers would be closer to being citizens had Trump not rescinded the DACA program and used their livelihoods as a bargaining chip. If Trump wanted dreamers to have a pathway to citizenship, a bill would have been passed by now. Beefing up border security is one thing, but building a wall that is essentially a monument to one man's vanity is downright farcical.

Democrats have always had strong stances on borders, not something I've always agreed with, but to say that they want open borders is a lie. Arguing against family separation =/= arguing for open borders, but to Trump, he'll always take the opportunity to argue in bad faith.

Rescinding DACA did not remove a path to citizenship. DACA never provided a path to citizenship. With respect to a pathway, he most certainly has offered it multiple times. Saying he doesn't really want it because he requires concessions is a ridiculous party line. It is used to try keeping Latino voters angry, maintain the energy of the far left outrage, and provide cover to the Dems who refuse to compromise where a compromise is actually possible. If they really gave a shit they would accept what was offered, give the kids legal status, and then run future campaigns on overturning the parts of the deal they don't like. And come on, it is very unlikely the entire wall is finished by 2020 even if started in 2017, so ending that would be a campaign issue too. But they say no, because the rage benefits them too much to actually make a deal and then campaign on revising said deal (which they probably expect to lose on if there is no rage left).

With respect to open borders, I actually said I don't believe they truly want open borders, and would only possibly believe it if they removed their fences and gates first. They are just arguing for it in a round about way, with the expectation that their voting base will not generally understand the situation enough to realize that they are in effect arguing for open borders. I say this because they claim you cannot detain children alone, and cannot detain children with parents. So what they are saying is you cannot detain the entirety of any families with children. That is arguing for open borders in effect, because it means you must let them cross and go about their business in the country on a promise to appear later.

 

[Death Dealer]

Actually 1.8 million dreamers would be closer to being citizens had Trump not rescinded the DACA program and used their livelihoods as a bargaining chip. If Trump wanted dreamers to have a pathway to citizenship, a bill would have been passed by now. Beefing up border security is one thing, but building a wall that is essentially a monument to one man's vanity is downright farcical.

When democrats were in power and yet failed to do anything on immigration, Obama repeatedly said he can't just sign an E.O. because that's not how it's supposed to work. And then he changed his mind and did an E.O. for daca that many believe was unconstitutional, but even Obama said it was a temporary fix. Before Trump rescinded daca, several states including Texas were suing the govt over daca. And Trump thought he could use daca as a carrot to get democrats to bargain. That's why he didn't immediately end it. He gave Congress 6 months notice to come up with a compromise.

If Trump wanted dreamers to have a path ? He offered them a path earlier this year. He went above and beyond. There was something like only 700k people enrolled in daca and he offered citizenship to 1.8 million, to the consternation of conservative immigration hardliners. That was a big concession on his part. He promised during the campaign no amnesty. Democrats just cynically decided to put off solving the problem, so they could use illegal immigration as a mid term election issue.

Early this year, the negotiations broke down because Schumer and the democrats refused to concede the money for a wall. He won the presidency on promising to build a wall. It's the obvious compromise. Trump legalizes everyone here illegally, as long as measures are put into place to seriously stop all of the rampant illegal immigration. Don't forget, Republicans agreed to an amnesty back in the 80's and all of the Democrats promised it was a one time deal, and they would fix illegal immigration so it would never be a problem, and it just got worse. Both parties get lobbied by big business that likes cheap labor. But here we are again and they're telling the same story. Legalize all of the illegals and then we'll look into fixing the problem. And Trump is saying, no. We have to solve it simultaneously. Give amnesty, but we have to make a serious effort to enforce the border.

The wall costs 25 billion. In the context of the federal budget, that's nothing. I've read studies that say illegal immigration costs over 100 billion a year. And opponents always say, a wall won't do anything. But the truth is it would substantially reduce the numbers. Along with a wall, they need a system that tracks entry and exit visas. Since like half of illegals originally came into the country legally, and overstayed etc. That isn't allowed to happen in most countries. You get a 30 day tourist visa or whatever, and on day 31, there are govt people knocking on your door asking why you haven't left.

Whoever said they don't want a wall because it would give Trump a victory is right. If the democrats really cared about the plight of the daca people, they would have come to a compromise with Trump. His offer to legalize almost 2 million people in exchange for a wall and changes to the law to make it harder for people to come here illegally going foward, was a big move on his part.

Democrats have always had strong stances on borders, not something I've always agreed with, but to say that they want open borders is a lie. Arguing against family separation =/= arguing for open borders, but to Trump, he'll always take the opportunity to argue in bad faith.

I don't think they have a strong stance on the border or they would've made a deal with Trump. Border enforcement is a virtually non-existant policy for the democratic politicians. All they do is make empty promises. Give us amnesty first and then we'll look at border enforcement. The vast majority of illegal immigrants would vote democrat if given the chance. Most all of their children who are automatically citizens will become democratic voters. So democrats see illegal immigration in a positive light. It grows their voter base. Even though it indisputably lowers working peoples wages, who they supposedly represent. That's one of the main reasons why Trump won. Working class people thought his policies were more favorable to them.

 

[xStoyax]

Largest talk shows?

AM radio? Jesus is that where you guys are getting all this crazy shit?

Um, no. Many conservative radio shows get 10-15 million listeners a week. They're on FM & Satellite https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_most-listened-to_radio_programs

 

[PonyStation4]

I think the Democrats are going to lose a lot of minority votes in the next election. Many feared Trump because they thought he was going to come after him, but it hasn't happened. All Trump has to do is keep lying and saying things like he's going to bring them jobs and such, talk about security. In the end it doesn't matter if its true or not, people just understand the message.

Contrary to what many think, Latinos and Blacks don't like illegal immigration. They care a lot about those low paying jobs and don't want them being taken away. Latino's expecially don't like constantly being in the news because illegal Latino's keep committing crimes and/or are in the news frequently. They don't like the bad rep from the illegals.

Democrats seem out of touch with what they're doing. They seem to be catering to already left leaning white voters, ignoring everyone else. They need to get back to jobs and security as they did pre 2014, in the end that's what minority's and immigrants will go for.

 

[ickythingz]

https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/...ed-consequences-trumps-tariffs-154313192.html

"Trump’s trade war has officially moved American jobs overseas.

In a regulatory filing on Monday, iconic motorcycle manufacturer Harley-Davidson (HOG) said it is moving the production of motorcycles bound for the EU out of the U.S. as a result of new tariffs."

Motorcycle sales have HALVED in the US. Over seas it has picked up. I hope I do not have to explain to you how business works.