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Trump takes shots at Kaepernick, Get that son of a bitch off the field
- Thread starter Armadilo
- Start date
excelsiorlef
Member
Nah it's attitudes like yours that demand we tailor protests to what upsets those we are protesting against the least... that causes division.
Jmanunknown
Member
Nope racism, bigotry, sexism, and hatred is what keeps america as divided as the country is.
Racist attitudes tend to be absolute, illogical, and def to opposing opinions, thats my point.
excelsiorlef
Member
Thats not what Im doing at all Im simply trying to find the best way towards progress.
excelsiorlef
Member
You said they shouldn't protest during the anthem because that upsets the right wingers.
You don't protest hoping to avoid making people mad.
Kneeling before means nothing... Do you believe Jerry Jones gives a shit about the things Kaep was kneeling for? What is kneeling before an anthem even mean? There's no vehicle there... the anthem is part of the symbolism. Kneeling before is to say that kneeling during actually is disrespectful.
This is barely above that the Steelers did.
Then why are you bitching about anthem protests being supposedly divisive?
Are these people absolute in their beliefs and illogical or not?
And that's to buckle to make right wing racist like our protest choice?
Hey remember when MLK asked those racist which bridge to march or which place to sit in?
Kneeling before the anthem is as good as kneeling in your own house, it's useless. If Kaepernick had kneeled before the anthem, then no one would have given a fuck about it, since he did it during, it sends the message that he doesn't tolerate the shit that the anthem stands for.
The Cowboys are compromising with the racists so that they don't get offended as much. That's bullshit right there.
The Cowboys are compromising with the racists so that they don't get offended as much. That's bullshit right there.
excelsiorlef
Member
What evidence do you have that they were sending Kaep's message?
You literally said kneeling during was failing because people were mad so they should kneel at a different time so people won't be mad.
That's what you said.
And when I said nah you accused me of being a purity tester who is part of the problem that is dividing everyone so it's pretty laugh out loud that you now come back saying you care so much about the message.
Kneeling during anthem worked, look at how this has blown up. Look how many people are now steering this the original point of the kneeling, trying to stop this rude to the flag rhetoric.
I never bitched about anything.
They are yes, which is why its harder to send the message.
No..so the message might be heard..if its not then its a failure but we dont know how its being interpreted yet.
Well I apologize if I offended you but Im trying to keep up with all these responses.
aspiegamer
Member
The Pentagon should demand refunds from the NFL for that "salute to service" crap they pay for every year-- Clearly the events aren't needed to hammer the point home. It takes a special type of dedicated racism to be willing to give up a hobby you've followed often your entire life and use as little more than an excuse to binge drink because your team decided to stay in the locker room during the national anthem once.
One irony of this is that, while making the idea of kneeling for the anthem being about maybe a tiny bit more than racial issues now, it's doing an even better job of exposing racists than before.
One irony of this is that, while making the idea of kneeling for the anthem being about maybe a tiny bit more than racial issues now, it's doing an even better job of exposing racists than before.
excelsiorlef
Member
Why would I be "offended"? I know I'm not part of the divide so any accusations that I am don't "offend me" because they're bold faced ridiculous.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...owner-jerry-jones-before-standing-for-anthem/
Read that statement from Jones and tell me if it says anything. There is zero of anything that Kaep was fighting for.
This is becoming It Gets Better levels of cooption and PR
And this further obfuscates as it again it reinforces that those who are kneeling during the anthem are on some level disrespecting the flag and the troops and all that jazz. Unity would have been we all kneel before and those who wish to rise for the anthem can do so and those who wish to further to point can stay kneeling.
Acerac
Banned
I think you're giving them far too much credit. Pretty sure the common conclusion they will reach is that anyone who did this is an "ungrateful thug" that doesn't respect the country and leave it at that. As far as they can see those who are protesting are just acting like children.
Why would they question their beliefs? I'd imagine most will just double down.
Depends, what it does definitely do is completely leave no wiggle room for people trying to connect protesting racial equality to disrespecting the flag or the military.
That's good or bad depending on your angle. If your angle is that the only effective way to show solidarity for Kaepernick is to completely mirror his protest (which is a valid position), then you aren't going to like that statement.
But if you are looking for a good case study to throw in the face of conservatives who persist with the false equivalence of "protesting during a game" = "spitting on the flag and the military" then Jones have given you one there.
One day someone they like will kneel for it and they'll try to rationalize why they can't put the guy in the "ungrateful thug" box or they'll just keep being pieces of shit.
It's basically people being mad at sport people doing a moment of silence or something in the end.
Sure some idiot is mad that he can't get his match 1min earlier but we don't need to cater to these idiots.
And seriously people who are mad at this would probably side with the white supremacist anyway so fuck them.
excelsiorlef
Member
Not really because no one kneeled during the anthem... thus reinforcing the idea that doing so is disrespectful/wrong/etc...
And nothing in that statement even mentions police brutality or you know black people.
BlackSalad
Member
This whole thing is very difficult to explain to children, like really hard.
excelsiorlef
Member
The anthem and flag while they represent many of the great things America can be it also represents many of the horrible things and kneeling is to acknowledge those horrible things in hopes of keep working towards fixing them.
One sentence.
Acerac
Banned
No doubt, they're upset because their racist ideals are being challenged. I'm just warning you that if you have hope for any large amount of them to have a moment of realization you're in for disappointment.
Some people love our country but doesn't like some things it does.
Others (who also love the country) think that somebody who has gotten so much from living in the US shouldn't question how it is run.
Seems pretty easy to break down?
EdibleKnife
Member
I guarantee that very few black people, activists, or even Kaepernick himself believe in the idea that a giant switch will be flipped throughout all of racist white America when it's historically known that our protest style doesn't matter because white America continually likes to paint any effort by black people fighting for their civil rights negatively and resist them fervently; even violently.
Washington Post said:
It's never been about the method of the message but the message itself that pisses them off. That's why no one buys the "You should have protested at this time, in this place and with these specific words to get your point across". The book Post-Traumatic Slave Disorder by Dr. Joy DeGruy touches on the idea that white America does have its own pathology, its own engraved behavior instilled from centuries of black oppression, that results in not only the perpetuation of racist institutions but the eagerness to assume the worst about black assembly, solidarity, and efforts toward equality. It's not something black people are supposed to fix by finding out the right formula so that racists don't get angry but something white America itself has to reckon with on its own with the efforts of the small percentage of white Americans who the message has reached.
Washington Post: A & B
VOX
Who's asking for that?
It's the same kinds of idiots who were perfectly ok with Jim Crows and random terrorist groups that targeted minorities.
Fuck them, at least everyone should let them know how despicable everyone think they are INCLUDING people they think are heroes.
Not sure if it's been posted yet, but the two protagonists from the X Files (sully and molder?? Idk their names) posted a picture of them taking the knee too.
https://twitter.com/GillianA/status/912497054454370305
https://twitter.com/GillianA/status/912497054454370305
Hesemonni
Banned
*swoons*
Acerac
Banned
No doubt. The whole reason I love this situation is because it puts everything in to stark contrast for anyone who wishes to engage in critical thinking. Apologies if this comes off as presumptuous, but I just don't believe that racists dominate that category, hence my skepticism that many of them will be reached.
When I read that you said they would rationalize the situation I misinterpreted that as you meaning they'd have a moment of reflection towards their actions. Apologies for the miscue there.
Mulder and Scully, and that's really cool.
I was close lol. Thanks!
SolidSnakex
Member
So, Pat Tillman's wife isn't particularly happy with Trump using his image to push his agenda
http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/...t-tillman-asks-husband-memory-not-politicized
http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/...t-tillman-asks-husband-memory-not-politicized
Raylan Targaryen
Member
Thats exactly what his whole thing has been about?
Everyone that was kneeling on Sunday did it because their feelings were hurt besides maybe the Seahawks.
I know a lot of people are arguing (quite rightly to some extent) that the actions taken by some of the teams and players are moving away from the original point of the protest.
But.
When I look at the NFL social media feeds I follow, I'm still seeing the Trump-supporting racist factions getting really upset by it. And when people (other fans, veterans, a wide cross section of the country and beyond) are responding to them, they're not just making vague noises about unity, they're talking about the actual issues that this all started with. So even if the teams and players aren't making the right point in the right way, it's still leading to the real issues being talked about front and center, and the bullshit of the don't-disrespect-the-flag crowd being called out. Which can't be a bad thing.
But.
When I look at the NFL social media feeds I follow, I'm still seeing the Trump-supporting racist factions getting really upset by it. And when people (other fans, veterans, a wide cross section of the country and beyond) are responding to them, they're not just making vague noises about unity, they're talking about the actual issues that this all started with. So even if the teams and players aren't making the right point in the right way, it's still leading to the real issues being talked about front and center, and the bullshit of the don't-disrespect-the-flag crowd being called out. Which can't be a bad thing.
FinaruDensetsu
Member
Yeah I understand. I'm just saying the people "saying" that are doing so disingenuously and deep down know what their actual intentions and meanings are. They aren't going to admit it though no matter how transparent they are. Even if everyone points out to them "Hey you guys are obviously not objecting to the anthem because they did it before the anthem", they'll just ignore it all and continue saying what they are saying.
OrangeGrayBlue
Member
You're right that Kaepernick would not have gotten the same attention if he knelt before the anthem, but at this point I think the act of taking a knee (especially on a football field) has taken such a symbolic meaning that it isn't quite as important when someone does it. For instance, there's that viral pic of some white veteran deciding to #TakeaKnee along with some other athletes and celebrities and I doubt those pictures were even taken during the anthem playing, nor would it really matter. The stance itself carries symbolism behind it at this point.
excelsiorlef
Member
It's both. Doing it during the anthem still counts for something.
If you go out of your way to avoid doing it doing the anthem that is making a statement unto itself and not a productive one.
As in there's a difference between Duchovny and Anderson taking a knee in solidarity far away from the field, same with that vet because it's clear they are doing it in solidarity with those taking a knee during the anthem...
It becomes less clear what it means when you do what the Cowboys did and release a mostly meaningless press release and then go out of your way to make sure you're not kneeling for the anthem.
OrangeGrayBlue
Member
I agree, I'm not sure Jerry Jones recognized that his gesture would still get the same kind of conservative backlash as if he had knelt during the anthem, but you're right that actually doing it during the song is the strongest way to make a statement and I hope any players who continue protesting don't stray from that fact.
excelsiorlef
Member
I don't for a second think Jones gives much of two shits about the issues Kaep cares about, this is cheap PR of "protesting the right way" (btw without actually protesting anything...again that press release is empty) ... His press release makes no reference to police brutality or even black people... but it does take extra care to note how as soon as the flag appeared they all stood and honoured it and the anthem...
The message there is clear... we don't disrespect the flag/anthem/vets/whatever the fuck unlike those other guys....
Now that conservatives are still going to get mad just speaks volumes to how fucked up they are... but that in itself should not in any way speak positively to how Jones and the Cowboys went at it.
OrangeGrayBlue
Member
I'm with you on all of that. Jerry doesn't seem to be on the same page with the initial cause of this protest and his point may very well have been some "this is the right way to protest" condescending nonsense but I'm still glad his gesture inadvertently exposed the "disrespecting the flag" rhetoric for the thinly veiled scapegoat it is, even if I can't credit them for intentionally setting out to prove that point.
That said, I think Shannon Sharpe's commentary is pretty spot on: it shouldn't have taken the president insulting NFL players directly to get them on board, and it's kinda shameful that a sport-wide protest kinda-sorta aligned with Kaepernick's original cause only came about after the president shouted profanities at them. Now that this moment has passed, it's going to be very telling to see how the protests continue going forward.
excelsiorlef
Member
It shouldn't have and I'd caution that it still hasn't, they're on board with kneeling as a nebulous act but all the issues have fallen to the wayside a lot and will likely continue to.
This whole thing has potential to completely erase just why Kaep was kneeling for... oh and Kaep will probably still be blackballed
HP_Wuvcraft
Banned
.... the president doesn't know how television works.
