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[dragonelite]

I don't understand this.

The X360 versions were nearly always better because it was easier to make that version perform better than the PS3. The PS3 was capable enough, it just needed a lot of work that third parties didn't bother with for understandable reasons.

The PS4 is by all accounts, 50% more powerful on the GPU side than the XBONE. How is that not going to also show in some way on multiplat games? Since they are a similar architecture as you mention, they could fairly easily exploit that extra power.

We dont know if its 50% more powerful or 80% more powerful.
This is only in the ALU cases. We still dont know what impact Esram has on GPU and GPGPU performance on the X1. And tbh i have not seen a ps4 exclusive game where i went wow jep that shows the 50% difference. If The division is even run on ps4 devkit hardware that was the only game on the show that screamed Fuck yeah this game is next gen and its multiplat. Or maybe im more impressed of the next gen effort put into the division and not the graphics. Dat environment awareness.

All we got was the 764 ops/cycle and no clocks specs. I dont think they will go for an overclock either so only option for a stronger console is they had a 7790 prototype running along with rumored specs or its most likely a downgrade. And the specs aren't fixed until they in people hands. History has shown that late down clocks are the norm. I would not be surprised if sony downclocked the GPU just to improve yields and pump more boxes out demand is very high.

 

[KidBeta]

So what would it of cost microsoft extra to upgrade to the same GPU as Sony? I would have to assume that if there were leaks of both consoles to the public MS would have to have known what GPU Sony were going with.
I cant believe MS would have gone in so low with their GPU,as they have always been good with the power of their consoles.

1 year+ months and months of time. Lots and lots of money, pretty much throwing out the entire console and starting again.

 

[dragonelite]

1 year+ months and months of time. Lots and lots of money, pretty much throwing out the entire console and starting again.

I dont even think its a money issues more a time issues.
Can't throw piles upon piles of money at it

 

[QaaQer]

1 year+ months and months of time. Lots and lots of money, pretty much throwing out the entire console and starting again.

and a great way to piss off all 3rd party pubs whove spent money devving for bone.

 

[ElTorro]

And tbh i have not seen a ps4 exclusive game where i went wow jep that shows the 50% difference.

Problem is, in addition, that we don't know which games ran on actual final hardware and/or PCs.

Guess we will have to wait for the releases. I think that differences will be more visible the further the generation advances and the hardware get's pushed to the limit.

In any case, I am happy that the XBone has the same CPU performance and a comparable amount of memory. Differences in GPU performance can be handled easier on multi-platforms, while significant differences in CPU and memory lead do gimped games. (Memory should be the main reason why the Wii U is, frankly, a hopeless case for multi-platform games in the long run).

 

[dragonelite]

Problem is, in addition, that we don't know which games ran on actual final hardware and/or PCs.

Guess we will have to wait for the releases. I think that differences will be more visible the further the generation advances and the hardware get's pushed to the limit.

In any case, I am happy that the XBone has the same CPU performance and a comparable amount of memory. Differences in GPU performance can be handled easier on multi-platforms, while significant differences in CPU and memory lead do gimped games. (Memory should be the main reason why the Wii U is, frankly, a hopeless case for multi-platform games in the long run).

Solid points. Im also quiet confused if they have such a awesome sound block why not market it more. Graphics can bring you so far but a dedicated sound block can improve immersion that much more. You clearly hear the difference between BF3 and COD when it comes to explosions and stuff. Or instead of marketing cloud computing for AI and stuff.
Why not market more that you can provide developers with dedicated server for their game for free. Guaranteed Dedicated servers means a lot to me as someone that is used to pc gaming and loves some competitive multiplayer. Such a bullshit when you look back on a killcam where the other guy saw you 2 full seconds earlier while you shot him to pieces on your screen.

 

[SneakyStephan]

Same. I have an older i5 system with SLI'ed ATi 6870s, and even if I just replaced the video card with something better, that is most of the price of a PS4 right there.

In a few years when the divide is too great to ignore, I'll transition back to PC gaming, much as I did this gen.

Your crossfire 6870s are already more powerful than ps4...

The 'sli' bit already gives away that you're pretty much just making shit up anyhow

edit: saw your other posts, yeah I'm not going to bother

 

[bgassassin]

50% isn't huge.

Ok.

It's not. The gap between PS4 and Wii U is huge.

 

[Truespeed]

We dont know if its 50% more powerful or 80% more powerful.
This is only in the ALU cases. We still dont know what impact Esram has on GPU and GPGPU performance on the X1. And tbh i have not seen a ps4 exclusive game where i went wow jep that shows the 50% difference. If The division is even run on ps4 devkit hardware that was the only game on the show that screamed Fuck yeah this game is next gen and its multiplat. Or maybe im more impressed of the next gen effort put into the division and not the graphics. Dat environment awareness.

All we got was the 764 ops/cycle and no clocks specs. I dont think they will go for an overclock either so only option for a stronger console is they had a 7790 prototype running along with rumored specs or its most likely a downgrade. And the specs aren't fixed until they in people hands. History has shown that late down clocks are the norm. I would not be surprised if sony downclocked the GPU just to improve yields and pump more boxes out demand is very high.

But we do know it's at least 50% more powerful when it comes to GPU performance. And the impact of the ESRAM isn't an advantage, it's a low cost and inferior solution to try and mitigate the obvious advantages of the GDDR5 RAM in the PS4. Additionally, the programming required to manage the utilization of the ESRAM will be a further burden on developers that doesn't exist of the PS4. And with MS suspiciously hiding the GPU clock speeds from people this gap may be even larger.

 

[kitch9]

It's not. The gap between PS4 and Wii U is huge.

50% is massive.

 

[bgassassin]

50% is massive.

I think we're having a subjective discussion. When I see ~1.2TF vs ~1.8TF for the GPU, I don't see that as huge compared to something like what Wii U might be at best.

 

[coldfoot]

I would not be surprised if sony downclocked the GPU just to improve yields and pump more boxes out demand is very high.

They already said 1.8TF in specs which locks in 800 MHz.

 

[netBuff]

I would not be surprised if sony downclocked the GPU just to improve yields and pump more boxes out demand is very high.

You keep harping on this "downclock" thing: The spec-sheet Sony released a week ago states a clear 1,84 TFLOPS for the GPU, the same number as the one released in February. This means there is and was no downlock: http://www.scei.co.jp/corporate/release/pdf/130611a_e.pdf

 

[dragonelite]

They already said 1.8TF in specs which locks in 800 MHz.

You keep harping on this "downclock" thing: The spec-sheet Sony released a week ago states a clear 1,84 TFLOPS for the GPU, the same number as the one released in February. This means there is and was no downlock: http://www.scei.co.jp/corporate/release/pdf/130611a_e.pdf

You guys forget about this and console launch history

*Design and specifications are subject to change without notice.

Im not only saying ps4 is subject to down clocks X1 is also and most likely candidate.

 

[Jhriad]

I haven't been following this thread as closely since E3 started. I'm assuming since it still says Rumor: Downclocking GPU in the title it hasn't had any confirmation or additional sources?

 

[Kung Fu Grip]

I think we're having a subjective discussion. When I see ~1.2TF vs ~1.8TF for the GPU, I don't see that as huge compared to something like what Wii U might be at best.

Taking in the system as a whole, there are plenty of other things where the PS4 has an advantage. The TF performance is only 1 part.

 

[kitch9]

I think we're having a subjective discussion. When I see ~1.2TF vs ~1.8TF for the GPU, I don't see that as huge compared to something like what Wii U might be at best.

Subjectively 600 gigaflop is the same output as a Nvidia 650M GPU, or a GT640 in the desktop cards. The PS4 has the equivalent of one of those GPU's in additional power over the Xbox.

Massive.

 

[bgassassin]

^ Why are you bringing up nVidia GPUs? And that comparison makes no sense.

Taking in the system as a whole, there are plenty of other things where the PS4 has an advantage. The TF performance is only 1 part.

He was the one focused on the GPU and I responded accordingly. The gap between Xbone and PS4 is not huge.

 

[Durante]

He was the one focused on the GPU and I responded accordingly. The gap between Xbone and PS4 is not huge.

That's an entirely subjective evaluation in either case.

What we can say is that the GPU difference between PS4 and XB1 is half an XB1. Or 2 Wii Us.

 

[kitch9]

^ Why are you bringing up nVidia GPUs? And that comparison makes no sense.



He was the one focused on the GPU and I responded accordingly. The gap between Xbone and PS4 is not huge.

Of course it makes sense a Nvidia 650M GPUs output is 600 Gigaflops.

600 Gigaflops is the power difference between PS4 and Xbox. Think about what the 650m is capable of and that is what PS4 has in addition to Xbox.

 

[BlockheadBrown]

I think we're having a subjective discussion. When I see ~1.2TF vs ~1.8TF for the GPU, I don't see that as huge compared to something like what Wii U might be at best.

You're kidding, right? You're saying that if you could have 50% MORE of something or not, you'd be fine with what you had and not really see the difference between what you have and what someone else has. You will miss the extra 50% when your game suffers for the lack of it. If you're an MS studio, it's not an issue. You work with what you have. If you're a 3rd party studio, you may or may not utilize the extra power. If you're a Sony studio, you have the option adding significantly more to your game. Don't diminish this value, bg. I'm a bit shocked, reading this from you, of all people.

 

[smokeandmirrors]

^ Why are you bringing up nVidia GPUs? And that comparison makes no sense.

It makes sense in the fact that it's a good benchmark for what 600 GF can be. It is a fairly sizeable difference.

 

[mrklaw]

I think we're having a subjective discussion. When I see ~1.2TF vs ~1.8TF for the GPU, I don't see that as huge compared to something like what Wii U might be at best.

50% difference is enough to get people spending $500+ on new GPU upgrades in the PC thread. Heck, 25% difference will do that.

So yes it is subjective, but two major new consoles being that different in power is a big thing IMO.

Also if rumours are true that Sony are actually ahead of the game on tools too, thats a potent combination. Better tools and more power = preferred lead platform for most devs I'd guess.

 

[nizerifin]

Have we seen any games confirmed running on an actual Xbone and not Windows 7?

 

[I H8 Memes]

Any insiders hear anything more one way or another, or is Microsoft zipping the leaky lips in a panic? It seems very dangerous for MS to play a waiting game for yields with Playstation beating the new Xbox pretty handily even in America and UK. If they don't downclock any word on the scale of the yield problems?

They are well past the point of being able to downclock. Games are in development right now and being built around a certain hardware configuration. They can't change any of that at this point.

 

[ElTorro]

That's an entirely subjective evaluation in either case.

Of course, it is. This whole discussion is neither based on rational argument, nor evidence.

It is purely driven by make-belive and the motivation to rationalize once a-priori affiliation to a console.

Once the difference in performance is to big to deny, the same people would argue that gameplay matters, not graphics.

Im not only saying ps4 is subject to down clocks X1 is also and most likely candidate.

I am still unconvinced about any downclock. Even if that would improve yields, it would most likely delay game development.

 

[bgassassin]

That's an entirely subjective evaluation in either case.

What we can say is that the GPU difference between PS4 and XB1 is half an XB1. Or 2 Wii Us.

I agree. But is that a huge gap or is it a decent gap? My view of what a huge gap is says it doesn't apply in this case.

Of course it makes sense a Nvidia 650M GPUs output is 600 Gigaflops.

600 Gigaflops is the power difference between PS4 and Xbox. Think about what the 650m is capable of and that is what PS4 has in addition to Xbox.

If you're going to look at the gap, you do it based on the benchmarks of two GPUs of a similar difference. You don't say "hey look, the gap akin to x GPU".

You're kidding, right? You're saying that if you could have 50% MORE of something or not, you'd be fine with what you had and not really see the difference between what you have and what someone else has. You will miss the extra 50% when your game suffers for the lack of it. If you're an MS studio, it's not an issue. You work with what you have. If you're a 3rd party studio, you may or may not utilize the extra power. If you're a Sony studio, you have the option adding significantly more to your game. Don't diminish this value, bg. I'm a bit shocked, reading this from you, of all people.

LOL. You extrapolated a whole lot from a discussion about whether the gap is huge or decent.

It makes sense in the fact that it's a good benchmark for what 600 GF can be. It is a fairly sizeable difference.

No. A good benchmark is looking at two AMD GPUs with a similar gap and seeing how they perform.

50% difference is enough to get people spending $500+ on new GPU upgrades in the PC thread. Heck, 25% difference will do that.

So yes it is subjective, but two major new consoles being that different in power is a big thing IMO.

Also if rumours are true that Sony are actually ahead of the game on tools too, thats a potent combination. Better tools and more power = preferred lead platform for most devs I'd guess.

Well the tools part adds in a different aspect to the discussion. And like I've mentioned, I'm not saying that the power difference is a big deal. I'm saying that the gap is not huge.

Of course, it is. This whole discussion is neither based on rational argument, nor evidence.

It is purely driven by make-belive and the motivation to rationalize once a-priori affiliation to a console.

Once the difference in performance is to big to deny, the same people would argue that gameplay matters, not graphics.

I hope to eventually get a PS4. Xbone is still a debatable decision due to price.

 

[nhlducks35]

IIRC, PS4 is somewhere around a 7850 and 7870, while the One is around a 7770. Quite a difference in frames at least.

 

[kitch9]

IIRC, PS4 is somewhere around a 7850 and 7870, while the One is around a 7770. Quite a difference in frames at least.

Nearly double. We could be looking at a 1080p v 720p scenario whilst running similar fps.

 

[smokeandmirrors]

No. A good benchmark is looking at two AMD GPUs with a similar gap and seeing how they perform.

But he's just doing a by the numbers comparison. The performance of the lower end cards aren't too much off so saying "600gf is what x card can do" is a decent benchmark for saying "This is what the xbox one lacks".

Well the tools part adds in a different aspect to the discussion. And like I've mentioned, I'm not saying that the power difference is a big deal. I'm saying that the gap is not huge.

The gap is definitely big, especially in a machine meant to last for 6-10 years...

 

[bgassassin]

IIRC, PS4 is somewhere around a 7850 and 7870, while the One is around a 7770. Quite a difference in frames at least.

This is a much better comparison. The main difference (IMO) being that the 7770 is only capable of one tri/clock while Xbone is capable of two tri/per clock.

But he's just doing a by the numbers comparison. The performance of the lower end cards aren't too much off so saying "600gf is what x card can do" is a decent benchmark for saying "This is what the xbox one lacks".

But that says nothing about actual performance.

The gap is definitely big, especially in a machine meant to last for 6-10 years...

But is it huge or decent?

 

[kitch9]

This is a much better comparison. The main difference (IMO) being that the 7770 is only capable of one tri/clock while Xbone is capable of two tri/per clock.

It's the fill rate that might cause issues running higher res stuff.

 

[Pristine_Condition]

So what would it of cost microsoft extra to upgrade to the same GPU as Sony?

18 months.

Which basically means ceding the market to Sony for a year. Never gonna happen.

 

[bgassassin]

It's the fill rate that might cause issues running higher res stuff.

That I agree with. With the consoles PS4 has twice the ROPs, and I forgot how many more TMUs. To me focusing on the ~600GFLOP gap gets into "fuzzy math" territory. If we were looking at a 600 GFLOP GPU compared to a 1.2TFLOP GPU then you have the same gap, but with a 100% diffence. And if you looked at it from a 50% difference, the more powerful GPU would be 900 GFLOPs.

Nearly double. We could be looking at a 1080p v 720p scenario whilst running similar fps.

Nearly double? You might want to look at that again.

 

[googleplex]

It's not. The gap between PS4 and Wii U is huge.

The PS4 has the following advantages over the Xbone.


50% more powerful GPU

More then X2 the Ram bandwidth

40% more RAM availabile to games


The difference is massive.

 

[Alien Bob]

The PS4 has the following advantages over the Xbone.


50% more powerful GPU

More then X2 the Ram bandwidth

40% more RAM availabile to games


The difference is massive.

It may be massive, significant, enormous, gargantuan, decent, ginormous, big, large, immense, colossal, tremendous, monstrous, monumental, or humongous.

But it's super clear that it's not huge.

 

[bgassassin]

The PS4 has the following advantages over the Xbone.


50% more powerful GPU

More then X2 the Ram bandwidth

40% more RAM availabile to games


The difference is massive.

Sorry. I only use terms like massive for gaps that can be considered generational leaps. PS4 is not a generation leap over Xbone.

 

[Paracelsus]

It may be massive, significant, enormous, gargantuan, decent, ginormous, big, large, immense, colossal, tremendous, monstrous, monumental, or humongous.

But it's super clear that it's not huge.

If people made a big deal out of the hardware advantage the XBOX360 had (they did) they need to do much more now that the gap is there, it's clear and it's bigger.

 

[Gemüsepizza]

Sorry. I only use terms like massive for gaps that can be considered generational leaps. PS4 is not a generation leap over Xbone.

I don't think anybody cares how you arbitrarily define the word "massive". If you don't want to use this word it's your choice, but he did list facts, and those are very good reasons why most people would call this difference "massive".

 

[googleplex]

Sorry. I only use terms like massive for gaps that can be considered generational leaps. PS4 is not a generation leap over Xbone.

Then use what ever word you feel comfortable using. but...



PS4 power level>>>>XBone power level. and it will show in games. And I'm pretty sure that was the point people were trying to make.

 

[ElTorro]

Would everybody be ok with "The difference is significant enough to be a major factor in the choice between both consoles?"

 

[bgassassin]

Then use what ever word you feel comfortable using. but...



PS4 power level>>>>XBone power level. and it will show in games. And I'm pretty sure that was the point people were trying to make.

And where did I say a difference wouldn't show? But the way it sounds, some are expecting a much bigger difference than what they'll get.

I don't think anybody cares how you arbitrarily define the word "massive". If you don't want to use this word it's your choice, but he lists very good reasons why most people would call this difference "massive".

If they call that massive based on that, then I question their technological understanding.

Would everybody be ok with "The difference is significant enough to be a major factor in the choice between both consoles?"

Yes, but I'm on a roll right now so go away.

 

[Azull]

Does it really matter what terms are used to describe the difference? The fact is that there is a difference and its enough to be thoroughly discussed about.

 

[mrklaw]

Would everybody be ok with "The difference is significant enough to be a major factor in the choice between both consoles?"

yes

Yes, but I'm on a roll right now so go away.

lol

 

[MDSLKTR]

edit: saw your other posts, yeah I'm not going to bother

You seriously shouldn't with him lol.

 

[Donnie]

The PS4 has the following advantages over the Xbone.


50% more powerful GPU

More then X2 the Ram bandwidth

40% more RAM availabile to games


The difference is massive.

XBox One has 100% more embedded RAM bandwidth than PS4 You really shouldn't isolate things like RAM bandwidth and ignore the architecture of the system itself.

 

[Cheech]

Your crossfire 6870s are already more powerful than ps4...

The 'sli' bit already gives away that you're pretty much just making shit up anyhow

edit: saw your other posts, yeah I'm not going to bother

You seriously shouldn't with him lol.

Wow, you guys sure told me with these compelling points of yours.

People who debate the person instead of the argument lose every time, BTW.

 

[reKon]

So generally we are likely going to see a bigger gap than Xbox 360 vs PS3 on multiplats due to the difference in power and developers using similar architecture?

 

[Donnie]

So generally we are likely going to see a bigger gap than Xbox 360 vs PS3 on multiplats due to the difference in power and developers using similar architecture?

Quite a bit more of a difference yeah. Though I do think people underestimate XBox One in some ways.

 

[netBuff]

XBox One has 100% more embedded RAM bandwidth than PS4 You really shouldn't isolate things like RAM bandwidth and ignore the architecture of the system itself.

Well, 100% more than 0 (due to non-existence) is still 0 - I hope MS engineers didn't bungle their inferior RAM implementation to the point of being completely useless!