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Turkey allows female police officers to wear headscarf
- Thread starter Golden_Pigeon
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They've been moving away from secularization in recent years, right? Not really that weird given that.
"Badge and gun on my desk Officer Gobbler, you're outta line".
Golden_Pigeon
Banned
What secularization have to do with wearing hijab as a police force ? Canada is not a secular country ?
Saucycarpdog
Member
Which imo is bad. Secularism is what has separated Turkey from the rest of the middle East. It should continue to be an example for the rest of the countries to follow.
Golden_Pigeon
Banned
15 years we hear the same thing. Islamist state still not coming.
Full on dictatorship already there.
SomedayTheFire
Member
I like that they call Scotland and the UK different countries.
Golden_Pigeon
Banned
Not according to Freedom House, who classify the country as "Partly free".
Or Democracy index who classify it as a "hybrid regime".
Dunno, Erdogan seems to be progressing quickly to that end.
At this rate, we could use his remains as a perpetual motion machine and have infinite energy.
It's a bit laughable to cite that when the trend was down PRIOR to the establishment of an autocratic state and mass purges.
White Wolf
Member
good. if turkish women want to wear one, they can, if they don't want to, they don't. it's that simple.
i've always disliked the usage of "neutrality" in public positions. like what does "neutral" even mean? shouldn't the "neutrality" of a country consist of its citizens? maybe it's just me.
anyway, good news.
i've always disliked the usage of "neutrality" in public positions. like what does "neutral" even mean? shouldn't the "neutrality" of a country consist of its citizens? maybe it's just me.
anyway, good news.
Tal Shiar Agent
Banned
Well considering the recent false flag coup and purges I'd say it's on the doorstop.
IdreamofHIME
Member
Scotland just allowed this, are we about to become a Islamist state too?
Sultan Sturgeon?
milanbaros
Member?
Turkey has been institutionally moving towards Islam so I don't find this surprising at all.
Edit: do people in western countries really not see the difference?
Edit: do people in western countries really not see the difference?
Stereogatari
Banned
The relaxing of the law makes sense from a freedom perspective.
But these moves are political. They are Islamist moves.
Atatürk would be devastated to see this. What a beautiful country we could have been if his principles had taken root across all demographics and political Islam could never have been a thing.
The Secular Turkish demographic and culture and region is so beautiful. Breaks my heart that they are not the hegemonical power
But these moves are political. They are Islamist moves.
Atatürk would be devastated to see this. What a beautiful country we could have been if his principles had taken root across all demographics and political Islam could never have been a thing.
The Secular Turkish demographic and culture and region is so beautiful. Breaks my heart that they are not the hegemonical power
White Wolf
Member
what a load of nonsense. secular turkey is barely 90 years old, you think rich cultures, demographics and regions evolve so quickly? everything you claim to love about the country was mostly there pre-1923, so i doubt it's suddenly coming to an end after allowing women more choice.The relaxing of the law makes sense from a freedom perspective.
But these moves are political. They are Islamist moves.
Atatürk would be devastated to see this. What a beautiful country we could have been if his principles had taken root across all demographics and political Islam could never have been a thing.
The Secular Turkish demographic and culture and region is so beautiful. Breaks my heart that they are not the hegemonical power
Golden_Pigeon
Banned
Erdogan is called authoritarian and a Sultan since like 2010.
The State is actually less authoritarian after the coup, and Erdogan is weaker since he need allies. He called out for CHP and MHP. The whole political class in Turkey is unified against the gulenists.
Golden_Pigeon
Banned
ibn Saïd;215193414 said:
Without mentioning the giant ethnic cleansing and political repression that Kemalism was.
But, hey, he must be home-team since he westernized everything by force.
Anyways he is deemed "secular", this is pretty funny when you know how he nationalized and instrumentalized Islam.
He was more like a Constantine type of figure. Islam never cease to be the religion of the State, he just crushed the independance of the clergy.
I like how purging tens of thousands of elected officials, judges, teachers, police, military and others, is leading to "less authoritatrian". Are you suggesting that he purged his own followers and not people who dont agree with him? Thats funny.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Turkish_purges#Human_rights
White Wolf
Member
what's there to lol about. this new addition has two choices: 1) police women don't want to wear a headscarf; okay, you don't have to. 2) said women want to wear a headscarf; okay, you can choose to.
how can you "lol" and say the previous situation had more freedom?
people are being very hypocritical. they forget, or don't know, how much ataturk liked to run things alone with his one party system. one could even call it being a "dictator". i think it wasn't until around 1950 there were other parties.
but hey, he brought secularism so has to be a good guy, right?
Tal Shiar Agent
Banned
There is always an Erdogen apologist hanging around.
Erdogan is going to use Islam to solidify his dictatorship and his recent realignment with Russia only shows that.
Golden_Pigeon
Banned
This is obviously awful stuff (the mistreatment against prisonniers). I don't think this kind of things make a country a dictatorship anyways, CIA admitted to have tortured and even killed at Guantanamo and we still consider USA as a democracy right ?
I do think that Erdogan crackdown on journalist is shameful and i really don't like some aspect of him, but calling him a dictator is just non-sense. He dropped hundred of cases after the coup and political opposition is really strong in Turkey. I went in dictatorial countries and anybody who went to one would know that Turkey is not one by just visiting the place.
I was speaking about domestic politics. The coup is a pretty good news for the political opposition. CHP and HDP hate Gulen far more than Erdogan.
I do think that Erdogan crackdown on journalist is shameful and i really don't like some aspect of him, but calling him a dictator is just non-sense. He dropped hundred of cases after the coup and political opposition is really strong in Turkey. I went in dictatorial countries and anybody who went to one would know that Turkey is not one by just visiting the place.
I was speaking about domestic politics. The coup is a pretty good news for the political opposition. CHP and HDP hate Gulen far more than Erdogan.
radios shipping overview
Member
Permissive secularism vs. mandated secularism?
Not that I believe current Turkey is on its way to more freedom of any kind.
Spaced Harrier
Member
Agents of the state have no place demonstrating religious adherence. This is beyond regressive, a purely political move, solidifying Erodegans islamification and in no way extending freedom.
" But it's their choice..." Please, the naivete is too much.
" But it's their choice..." Please, the naivete is too much.
How does this not extend freedom...?
Golden_Pigeon
Banned
I think it will be easier for everyone if everybody will state his nationality before stating what is and what is not secularism, because the concept vary immensely from one country to another.
EGOMON
Member
Whats wrong in giving Muslim women their right to wear headscarf? Or would like a France-like discrimination against Muslim womens?
ClosingADoor
Member
Religion has no place in public functions. Don't like this stuff. Same with other countries doing it. And same for other religions.
potatohead
Member
Canada is a secular country and you can wear a headscarf or a turban while serving in as a MP or with uniform as a RCMP or police officer.
So it is strange, because it's kind of the opposite and counter-intuitive.
Head-scarfs, Sikh turbans, crosses, skullcaps and other items indicating religiosity have no place as part of the official uniform of member of a state security force.
It does extend personal freedom. Sort of like e.g. in America, allowing public school teachers to say prayers before class would be an extension of personal freedom. It would also be considered an abrogation of the separation of church and state, which is intended to increase the freedom of that teacher's students to choose their own religion, free from interference from government officials. The extent to which this analogy actually matches the situation under discussion here is maybe questionable, but you can apply the same underlying concept even if the details aren't the same.
Do you think that's a danger here? Is it possible that something we'd be concerned might be discrimination in France might not be a problem at all in Turkey? Why or why not?
ClosingADoor
Member
Nobody is taking away rights to wear it. The France thing was aimed at people in their free time going to a public place. Then it is wrong. But certain dress codes for professions is not wrong.
Funyarinpa
Member
Whahahahahat the fuck. How is that even a positive point when these cases -unless I am confusing things- were cases opened by Erdoğan for slander of him against civilians? Oh, how grateful we shall be for Him to lay His blessings upon us!
The guy's crackdown on free speech should already be enough evidence that Turkey is starting to lean towards democracy, not to mention it greatly undermines your claim that political opposition is strong- when you have newspapers shut down overnight and turned into Erdoğan propaganda machines, there is little room left for talking about freedom of speech.
I find it absolutely incredible how you just criticize everything about Atatürk then go "Erdoğan did some naughty things but hey he ain't no dictator." Atatürk has driven this country towards progress more than anyone else. If your commentary on Erdoğan is so soft, you should be viewing Atatürk like a saint.
By the way, I don't have any credible sources I can share with you at hand -history was never a strong suit of mine and all websites I find currently seem biased as all hell-, but there *were* attempts at establishing opposition parties before the 1940's in Turkey that failed due to differing reasons. Never heard the allegations of ethnic cleansing and such discussions in the country -Questioning that any evil acts were done in Atatürk's time is pretty much a huge taboo- so I don't have much to say about that one.
We have people ITT calling Atatürk a dictator instead. That would be funny if it weren't so sad.
On the actual topic: Somewhat conflicted on the issue -can relate to both sides- when separated from the political undertones, but under this government in these circumstances? Yeah, nah, shit's not good to see.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
What does that have to do with democratization and how laughable is it to call anything Erdogan does right now a democratization in general. He's making a mockery of it.
Generally I think it's good but the move seems like a precarious sign just a tad bit.
Generally I think it's good but the move seems like a precarious sign just a tad bit.
Yeah, this about sums it up. Not much reason to be against this as an act in a vacuum (again, Scotland recently voted to allow female officers to wear a hijab as well), but it is concerning in the context of what is happening in Turkey.
His Majesty
Banned
Civil servants of a secular state should not express their religion while on the job. They represent the government.
Golden_Pigeon
Banned
The armenian genocide for starter, was made by Ataturk political movement, the Committee of Progress and Justice (before he was in charge, but it's the same ideology)
They just followed the same trend against the Kurds later on. The cultural genocide of Kurds is ongoing to this day because of the Ataturk racist heritage. They were not allowed to even speak kurdish in public school when i was there in 2010. Now they can thanks to the AKP and yes, Ataturk would spin in his tumb for that.
The dismantlement of the sufi brotherhoods in Turkey and their suppression was pretty violent and massacres against them were committed.
Yes, he was "progressive" but as the Shah of Iran was. And he was called a hero by the West since day 1. No matter if he installed a one-party system and was an absolute ruler because he changed the muslim calendar to the christian one and the arabic script to the latin, and banned the veil, the turban and the fez. He also banned polygamy and adapt swiss law to his country. So he was great for the West, and nobody cares about the massacres and the huge political repression.
Hitler said that his number one model was Ataturk. Just look at his concept of race and nationhood and you'll understand why. If you go to Turkey, you will see, 60 years after his death, how a totalitarian figure he was. You even have a law that force you to have a poster of the guy in every store.
It's amazing to see the same persons shouting about how the "immigrants should adapts to the western values" and in the same time being scandalized when another country want to rule by it's own standards. How a 99 % muslim country with Islam as the state religion could not allow hijabi to be in a public office? And you if you like women liberation, it's putting a women in a position of authority, how this is not progressive ?
Also my stance on it. It's good to have the public force reflect the people it serves but we know the context in which this change is implemented.
Can't disagree with this more. The government should represent the people and the public servants should serve the people. From the people, by the people, for the people. Any other kind of governments needs fundamental changes to reflect this or be taken down.
How is that a relevant example exactly? like, in what way does this headscarf interfere in peoples right to have freedom or religion?
this is extending the freedom of religion without encroaching on other peoples rights.
In fact if anything the law was there in the first place to try and stifle religious freedoms, because the government in turkey for a very long time tried to force secularism on its citizens.
There's nothing hypocritical about this. You can view one set of values as superior.
Golden_Pigeon
Banned
So don't conceal it by this "When in Rome..." kind of rhetorics and just embrace western supremacism.
edit: i don't speak to you, i don't know your views, it's an impersonal "you".
So you don't believe in individual liberty and freedom of expression?
Glad you are not in charge
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