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Turkey allows female police officers to wear headscarf

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Well, imagine this scene. A team of hijab-wearing police women storming into a room full of jews that may or may not be doing something illegal.

Imagine how this would play out in the Jewish community and the media. Even if the police women were being completely neutral and fair.

The appearance of a conflict of interest can be almost as bad as the conflict of interest itself.

I agree and disagree.

Allow me to elaborate, I agree with your point of the implications of perceived conflict of interests however I think in a diverse community where a quick glance at the overall police force would immediately show that the hijab wearing police that just kicked your door down is not the whole force and that there might even be a turban wearing force laying the smack down and thus claims of religious intolerance are quickly put to rest.

Now..... In your example you are correct, but only when you have a state that is religiously backed. let me bring the IDF in to this, soldiers openly wear a yamuka/kippah while doing raids, in a situation like that even though the IDF may be goin after bad people, to the Arab/Muslim majority it appears worse and provides opportunities for terrorist cells to implant propaganda.

To go back to my Saudi Arabia example, they have religious police, which I'm sure you know can be quiet aggressive to say the least. Saudi Arabia identifies as a Muslim state. Turkey hasn't gone full Islamist.... Yet

But (hopefully not) when that happens and they are forcing non-Muslim and Muslim women to wear a hijab to join the police force i will happily defend a position of stricter secularism in uniform and government

Edit:

I changed a word. It's about religious expression in general, to which religious garments and trinkets are a part of.

I saw that, see my reply above
 
Hmmmm

But the state is neutral, until it identifies itself with a religion (Saudi Arabia, etc)

So why is a correlation being made that by seeing personal symbols that it is a representation of what the state also believes?

The state is neutral. Therefore its representatives must also act neutral. Not only that, they must also appear neutral. That's why they often wear uniforms, to come across as one single entity and to reinforce the public's perception of the state's neutrality.

i.e. if I approach this police officer I will get the same treatment compared to another officer. Obviously this isn't always the case but it is important for citizens to feel that they are being treated fairly. This is why the uniform is so important.

Deviations from that uniform and citizens will no longer see a normal police officer, they will see a muslim police officer. The officer might be treating them in a fair way, but his outward appearance suggests that he is not only serving the state but that there are also personal preferences creeping in.

The same applies for our judicial system. Why do judges wear a uniform? They must act neutral and also appear neutral. Or would you think that a judge dressed in jewish clothing passing judgement over a muslim suspect would be a good thing for a secular state?
 
I never argued about that. Of course you can have your beliefs and serve the state well. What I'm saying is that you're not supposed to express these beliefs to the public while serving. The state is neutral and so are you.

Western governments are free to express their white Christan heritage through their laws and values, but don't you dare wear a hijab... let's decorate the government office with Christmas decorations but you! take off that damn turban!

As a Canadian and a government employee I am happy that my country allows head gear that is intrinsic to someone's culture to be worn while they are in a professional capacity. This head gear is professional and respectful and this law exemplifies our wish to be a multicultural society.

However the context of this law in turkey is something all together different.
 
The state is neutral. Therefore its representatives must also act neutral. Not only that, they must also appear neutral. That's why they often wear uniforms, to come across as one single entity and to reinforce the public's perception of the state's neutrality.

i.e. if I approach this police officer I will get the same treatment compared to another officer. Obviously this isn't always the case but it is important for citizens to feel that they are being treated fairly. This is why the uniform is so important.

Deviations from that uniform and citizens will no longer see a normal police officer, they will see a muslim police officer. The officer might be treating them in a fair way, but his outward appearance suggests that he is not only serving the state but that there are also personal preferences creeping in.

The same applies for our judicial system. Why do judges wear a uniform? They must act neutral and also appear neutral. Or would you think that a judge dressed in jewish clothing passing judgement over a muslim suspect would be a good thing for a secular state?

I think my reply to Closingadoor provides enough that I don't want to repeat myself.

However, I would think, that in a solid democracy, there are check and balances in place to challenge a decision.
For example, the Burkini fine imposed on that lady in France can and is being challenged.

If someone feels they are being judged unfairly under the pretext of religious context they can and normally do challenge the ruling.

Now this goes both ways also
funny you mention the judicial system
for example a judge recently refused to hear a case because the defendant wore a scarf in court.
 
Im making this about Islam because it's concerning Islam specifically, what matters more is if the person is doing the job mandated by the state properly and following secular rules set by the state - if they wear a piece of clothing that happens to reflect their beliefs what bearing does it have on them completing their tasks?

It's only to those that have a problem with the religion that are offended by seeing such items. If a Jewish police officer showed up at my door my only concern is that he's identifiable as police and he helps me with the problem I called him to do I don't give two shits if he's wearing a hat with his overall uniform
I am certainly not offended by seeing religious clothing. I just don't like it being part of a police officers uniform, since that uniform should be neutral. They represent the law of the state, which should be neutral and free of any religious influence.

I also don't hold it against people personally, but against the state for not handling this issue as I would like it. If the state offers this possibility and you make us of it, I won't be offended by you or hold it against you. But I can still like for the state to change it.

I think my reply to Closingadoor provides enough that I don't want to repeat myself.

However, I would think, that in a solid democracy, there are check and balances in place to challenge a decision.
For example, the Burkini fine imposed on that lady in France can and is being challenged.

If someone feels they are being judged unfairly under the pretext of religious context they can and normally do challenge the ruling.

Now this goes both ways also
funny you mention the judicial system
for example a judge recently refused to hear a case because the defendant wore a scarf in court.
And both those things you mention are wrong. Because those people are members of the public and can then wear whatever they want. You can't compare it as easily as that.
 

Khaz

Member
Western governments are free to express their white Christan heritage through their laws and values, but don't you dare wear a hijab... let's decorate the government office with Christmas decorations but you! take off that damn turban!

wtf are you on about? if their constitution states they are secular, no they aren't allowed to do what you're describing.

Or shouldn't. If they are, then it's hypocritical from the government and outrage should be drawn.
 

Koren

Member
wtf are you on about? if their constitution states they are secular, no they aren't allowed to do what you're describing.

Or shouldn't. If they are, then it's hypocritical from the government and outrage should be drawn.
Well, it indeed happen, and at least some people are acting against it.

I'm still not sure about festive trees, though. I don't associate this to catholics...
 
And both those things you mention are wrong. Because those people are members of the public and can then wear whatever they want. You can't compare it as easily as that.

Of course I can, if we have freedom from religious persecution and freedom to choose religion in the charter and in the constitution, what good is having a secular government whose rulings on the public is anything but that - just for appearance?

Add in the fact that when you have a very multicultural society the symbols manifest more so
 
wtf are you on about? if their constitution states they are secular, no they aren't allowed to do what you're describing.

Haha then why do they do it? Because it's OK as long as it's a cultural practice from a religion you were raised with,and that the constitution was originally written to reference? What is the real issue here?
 
Of course I can, if we have freedom from religious persecution and freedom to choose religion in the charter and in the constitution, what good is having a secular government whose rulings on the public is anything but that - just for appearance?

Add in the fact that when you have a very multicultural society the symbols manifest more so
You really don't see the difference between people enforcing the state's law - which I think we all agree should be neutral and free of religious influence - show religious affiliation, and with members of the public wearing religious clothes?

This also has nothing to do with a multicultural society. Nobody is stopping you from following your religion. But it should not be shown in certain functions.
 
You really don't see the difference in having people enforcing the state's law - which I think we all agree should be neutral and free of religion influence - show religious affiliation, and with members of the public wearing religious clothes?

I do but I think you and I have different definitions of "religious influence and affiliation"
 
121511_shop_10_1215680a.JPG
 
I do but I think you and I have different definitions of "religious influence and affiliation"
The state - and thus the people enforcing the law - should appear neutral. I don't think using religious things while performing your function helps with the perception of that.

http://media.cmgdigital.com/shared/lt/lt_cache/thumbnail/615/img/photos/2012/08/11/ef/97/121511_shop_10_1215680a.JPG
This officer is American judging from the uniform I think, and that country has a ton of religion creeping into politics and other parts of life that I don't like also.

That said, I don't think it is a valid comparison, since this is not part of his daily uniform and the festivities around Christmas has evolved to a point that it is not really religious anymore. I have celebrated Christmas my whole life and everyone in my family is atheist and never went to church for example.
 
The state - and thus the people enforcing the law - should appear neutral. I don't think using religious things while performing your function helps with the perception of that.


This officer is American judging from the uniform I think, and that country has a ton of religion creeping into politics and other parts of life that I don't like also.

That said, I don't think it is a valid comparison, since this is not part of his daily uniform and the festivities around Christmas has evolved to a point that it is not really religious anymore. I have celebrated Christmas my whole life and everyone in my family is atheist and never went to church for example.

And now you see everyone's point. Hijab doesn't necessarily mean Muslim. I've had many friends who wear hijab for different reasons, not always religious. And despite CHRISTmas being petty much secular it still represents your christian heritage as a cultural practice. So, why is one OK and not the other?
 
I think my reply to Closingadoor provides enough that I don't want to repeat myself.

However, I would think, that in a solid democracy, there are check and balances in place to challenge a decision.
For example, the Burkini fine imposed on that lady in France can and is being challenged.

If someone feels they are being judged unfairly under the pretext of religious context they can and normally do challenge the ruling.

Now this goes both ways also
funny you mention the judicial system
for example a judge recently refused to hear a case because the defendant wore a scarf in court.
Why are you randomly spoiler tagging sentences in your comment?
 
And now you see everyone's point. Hijab doesn't necessarily mean Muslim. I've had many friends who wear hijab for different reasons, not always religious. And despite CHRISTmas being petty much secular it still represents your christian heritage as a cultural practice. So, why is one OK and not the other?
If it is cultural and not religious, then people normally wearing it wouldn't have a problem taking it off. So the whole point of now allowing these things becomes useless, since it wouldn't have been a problem before. People in this thread said it was great, because now those women could become police officers. If it was cultural and not religious, they already could.

And that is not taking into account that a police officer wearing a Christmas hat for a charity event is not the same as having something being a daily part of a uniform.
 
Wearing the standard uniform chosen for that job, which does not include religious symbols or influences.

Alright sweet let's put a pin in that especially the bolded.

Is the uniform or uniform insignia designed with religion that is to say, is there a cross literally stitched into the uniform and is it there by design? that to me is the at least is what I take from religious symbols and influence

If the person wants to add something else on it, fine but I know it's a personal thing not an actual state sanctioned thing
 
If it is cultural and not religious, then people normally wearing it wouldn't have a problem taking it off. So the whole point of now allowing these things becomes useless, since it wouldn't have been a problem before. People in this thread said it was great, because now those women could become police officers. If it was cultural and not religious, they already could.

And that is not taking into account that a police officer wearing a Christmas hat for maybe an hour or whatever when a child is around is not the same as having something being a daily part of a uniform.

I see what the issue is now. You don't understand what a hijab really is. A hijab is born from religion and culture. The reason a woman wears one can be religious, cultural, or both. You are assuming that cultural pressure isn't an issue when it very much is, and often that pressure is from your own family.

And now you've introduced a sliding scale to your own argument. So it's OK when it's worn for an hour? In front of children? If you don't feel that strongly about it why are you arguing about it either way?

It's clear to me that people just don't want to take the time to understand this complex issue and would rather just be hypocritical. You know... kind of like how religiously fundamental people act.
 
This doesn't have anything to do with secularism. Personal religious expression is not the same thing as government backed religious preferences. Anti religious mandates by a governing body are not secular, they're just anti religious. Keeping religious favoritism out of the act of governing is secular.

I can see the reasoning behind keeping personal religious symbols out of the police force though. These are individuals with weapons and authority to use violence against citizens, and religion is one of the worlds biggest incitements to violence and mistrust.
 

Dalibor68

Banned
And now you see everyone's point. Hijab doesn't necessarily mean Muslim. I've had many friends who wear hijab for different reasons, not always religious. And despite CHRISTmas being petty much secular it still represents your christian heritage as a cultural practice. So, why is one OK and not the other?
Are you serious? A hijab IS muslim and not some normal casual clothing you usually wear for fun or style. Ive never seen anyone wear a hijab not because of religion.
 

MUnited83

For you.
No not really, you're not being fair. Someone could say the exact opposite. Wouldn't make them right either. It really all comes down to your values. Obviously someone posting on an english speaking forum like this would think secularism is better, but that doesn't make it a fact.


Nope, didn't run out of anything. I already answered all your points and all youre doing is repeating the same stuff so im not really gonna keep saying the same thing. If you want to know what I think about what you just wrote, read my posts above, cause im just gonna say the same thing

There's no subjectivity here. Secularism, aka the separation of church and state, should be the standard. It is objectively better.
 

Llyranor

Member
This whole debate reminds me of 'secular' Quebec trying to ban hijabs/turbans/etc from hospital/school (many of whom are named after catholic saints, HMMM) employees (while keeping a giant cross in their national assembly, the hypocrites), but fortunately the Quebecois public voted the xenophobic party out of power.

I work with doctors and nurses who wear the hijab and it is part of their identity. I would not feel comfortable staying in the province if they were banned from wearing it.

If a patient complained about not wanting to be be served by a Muslim doctor or nurse, that racist POS could kindly piss off.

Here in Montreal, we have a hospital called the, dun dun dun, Jewish General Hospital, which has lots of Jewish patients and donors. It is university-affiliated, and the university actually has agreement with Saudi Arabia to have residents study and practice here. Yeah, Saudi Muslim hijab-wearing doctors treating Jewish patients. And the Jewish General Hospital was very public about its outright rejection of the hijab/etc ban and stating it would simply ignore the law.
 
This whole debate reminds me of 'secular' Quebec trying to ban hijabs/turbans/etc from hospital/school (many of whom are named after catholic saints, HMMM) employees (while keeping a giant cross in their national assembly, the hypocrites), but fortunately the Quebecois public voted the xenophobic party out of power.

I work with doctors and nurses who wear the hijab and it is part of their identity. I would not feel comfortable staying in the province if they were banned from wearing it.

If a patient complained about not wanting to be be served by a Muslim doctor or nurse, that racist POS could kindly piss off.

Here in Montreal, we have a hospital called the, dun dun dun, Jewish General Hospital, which has lots of Jewish patients and donors. It is university-affiliated, and the university actually has agreement with Saudi Arabia to have residents study and practice here. Yeah, Saudi Muslim hijab-wearing doctors treating Jewish patients. And the Jewish General Hospital was very public about its outright rejection of the hijab/etc ban and stating it would simply ignore the law.
Aren't all of these private institutions?
 

Llyranor

Member
Aren't all of these private institutions?

Nope. All public. With hospital names like Hotel-Dieu, Notre-Dame, St-Luc, St-Mary's, Sacrecoeur, it'd be hard to tell this was a secular province to someone who didn't know! But trying to change any of those names would be an attack on secular Quebec's cultural identity which has no religion undertones!
 
Nope. All public. With hospital names like Hotel-Dieu, Notre-Dame, St-Luc, St-Mary's, Sacrecoeur, it'd be hard to tell this was a secular province to someone who didn't know! But trying to change any of those names would be an attack on secular Quebec's cultural identity which has no religion undertones!

Weird, christian named hospitals are usually privately owned. Public hospitals are most often named after their locale where I live.
Anyways whether the Quebec government was hypocritical isn't much of an argument. We're talking about individual positions on the matter and I see a lot of pointing fingers when that's completely besides the point unless they themselves have cited similarly hypocritical opinions or defended any of those.

I'm on the side of all or none w/r/t religions but my country sadly still favours Catholicism anyways.
 
There's no subjectivity here. Secularism, aka the separation of church and state, should be the standard. It is objectively better.

It's better for religious people as well. Nobody can come round and tell you that your brand of your religion is the "wrong" one; and that you'll be arrested/beaten/killed/discriminated against if you don't fall in line.

I have no issue with people wearing religious headgear at work though, I really don't see why it should bother people.
 
Alright sweet let's put a pin in that especially the bolded.

Is the uniform or uniform insignia designed with religion that is to say, is there a cross literally stitched into the uniform and is it there by design? that to me is the at least is what I take from religious symbols and influence

If the person wants to add something else on it, fine but I know it's a personal thing not an actual state sanctioned thing
Why would a person just be able to add anything to a uniform for their job? It's a uniform, they should be the same. You can't randomly go out and add stuff to it or chance it. That is why we have regulations for uniforms for certain jobs, like police and military.

I see what the issue is now. You don't understand what a hijab really is. A hijab is born from religion and culture. The reason a woman wears one can be religious, cultural, or both. You are assuming that cultural pressure isn't an issue when it very much is, and often that pressure is from your own family.

And now you've introduced a sliding scale to your own argument. So it's OK when it's worn for an hour? In front of children? If you don't feel that strongly about it why are you arguing about it either way?

It's clear to me that people just don't want to take the time to understand this complex issue and would rather just be hypocritical. You know... kind of like how religiously fundamental people act.
It might be worn for different reasons. Although to me it seems this is very much a religious thing in Turkey. And that is all fine. Just not as part of your police uniform. If it is cultural, then there is no reason a woman can't take it off while on the job and be fine with that. If it is religious and she doesn't want to take it off, then she needs to chose between the job or her religion in that matter. That is her choice, and both are fine for me.

Your arguments about pressure and other things don't have any place in this discussion. If people are being pressured to wear it, that is even more wrong! And then you should blame the ones putting pressure on someone instead of trying to chance the police uniform.

And I did not add a sliding scale. I pointed out you grabbed a random photo with a police officer wearing a non-religious hat during a charity event.
 

Cocaloch

Member
Weird, christian named hospitals are usually privately owned. Public hospitals are most often named after their locale where I live.
Anyways whether the Quebec government was hypocritical isn't much of an argument. We're talking about individual positions on the matter and I see a lot of pointing fingers when that's completely besides the point unless they themselves have cited similarly hypocritical opinions or defended any of those.

I'm on the side of all or none w/r/t religions but my country sadly still favours Catholicism anyways.

I also don't think it's necessarily hypocritical to say that it is wrong for France and Quebec to try and ban Hijabs from being worn by anyone and that it's not wrong for Turkey to stop those that represent the state from wearing them. For one thing there is a big difference between what you let private citizens do and what representatives of the state must do. For another all countries aren't isomorphic. You have to look at relevant demographic issues and each countries History. If France tried to prevent Police officers from wearing Hijabs that would mean something different than Turkey doing it.

I don't care either way, but I certainly don't think we should look at this as some progressive move by the Turkish state. If you aren't burying you head in the sand you know why this is happening now.
 
To be clear, I don't think headscarfs alone will immediately change anything. This is more of a bellwether. A signpost of a country slowly sliding away from secularism and towards what could eventually become theocracy. And that's sad.

I really don't think it would and here come most of people issue to understand politics in muslims countries (and i agree that it's very complex), it's that we always think in term of "who are the islamist" and "who are the seculars" in situation (like in Egypt) when the so-called "secular" are using religion as much as the Muslim Brotherhood (you can look upon the so-called secular Sisi imprisoning atheist and homosexuals). Or in Algeria where the government heavily use religious rhetorics in the 80's and then became a kind of "secular hero" putschists against the democratically elected islamist FIS.

So we apply different criteria to different situation. In Turkey secularism is very specific, it mean the total submission of the religion by the State and to the State. Religion is on the ID, it's in the constitution and it's considered a core-value of the Turkish nation as a cultural trait and not a faith or guidelines. And the army is supposed to enforce that it's stay that way but they used when it was needed religion as well and at the end is what more about securing their own power than "preserving secularism".

The elites were (and still are, in certains areas) the representation of the ideal secular Turks the system would produce and the college education system would produce this same elite and it's was why the veil was banned in the university.

But in parallel to the religion domesticated by the State, clandestine form of religiosity always existed like the Sufi Brotherhood (banned in the 20's) and diverse groups like Milli Gorus and the Gulenists, who aimed to get the power back to the civils and emancipate the religion from the State. This strict control of the religion by the Military "secularist" give some weird situation, like the fact that the so called "Islamist" Erdogan is actually giving more religious liberty to the minorities (several church were builds and some citizens swaps their religion from islam to christianity when it was impossible to do so before, because kemalism made Islam like an ethnic characteristic of the Turks).

So to conclude, for us to witness the birth of a theocracy in the Saudi or Iranian sense of the term, we would need to have the same kind of dynamics that those countries had when they gave birth to the system they are actually living in. That would be armed rebellion against the State with the masses supports and with a clear ideological roadmap. This situation don't exist in Turkey and the AKP is not a ideological party, it's more like a tendency that is supported by a lot of different kind in people in Turkey.

You have the entrepreneurial class who like the "business-friendly" approach, you have the low middle-class who appreciate the kind of "solidarist" reforms like the universal medical care and of course you have the religious minded who see the AKP as a way out from the constant secularist pressions of the elite and army. And the Kurds as well who would be interested in a "post-nationalist" concept of the turkish nation, and seduced by the promise of a possible autonomy from the AKP.

Now we are 15 year after, and the political landscape of Turkey was totally changed. Of course you have the authoritarian derive of Erdogan, condemned by many early supporter of the AKP, but you also have the end of the military rule and a political class more representative of the people they are ruling for. Some old issue who seems impossible to resolve like the hijab in public space is now a "non-issue" since even the kemalist "secularist" party CHP have a hijabi deputy now and they use this as well to show that they have changed. Erdogan still repeat to this day that he is in favour of secularism, even if some voices in the AKP (the oldschool) are clearly in favour of eliminating secularism of the constitution, but not as a state practice.
Nobody, even the more extreme Saadet Partisi, is speaking about imposing a clerical class who would rule the country like in Iran or in Arabia Saudi or even about shari'a law.

So with this kind of configuration and national dynamics, it's very unlikely that we would see the emergence of a theocracy (in the sense of a ruling clerical class) in Turkey. It would have been possible for instance if the coup was successful, the AKP will have been heavily targeted and will hence radicalize and adopt revolutionary perspective, exactly the same way the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt radicalized themselves or even Khomeini who was a monarchist in the early 60.

It's also important to stress the fact that the clerical class don't really rule, except in the judiciary, historically in the Sunni world, and the temporal power (Sultan) and the religious power (the Ulemas) were most of the time separated since the Umayyad.
 
Are you serious? A hijab IS muslim and not some normal casual clothing you usually wear for fun or style. Ive never seen anyone wear a hijab not because of religion.

It's not, it's accidentally muslim. If you go to some part of Africa or Asia, you won't be able to distinguish a muslim women from a non-muslim women. In another times in certain place of Europe, the veil the christian women wear was not really different than the women from Kosovo, Bosnia, Albania are wearing. If you go to an orthodox church, women are wearing a veil who would qualify as hijab in Teheran.

It's exactly like the beard, if tomorrow all the non-muslim decide that it's out of fashion and gross to have a beard, it would become a religious symbol of the muslims.

One of the way out of the current situation is that certain non-muslims women would decide to wear a veil (like certain hollywood star in the past) because they like it and press it as individual liberty, so the garment would became what is always was: only a cloth.
 
Nobody in this thread has noted it, but the Islamist hijab is not a traditional part of Turkish headscarf and folk clothing garb. Traditional Turkish folk headscarf are very different and aren't explicitly Islamist looking.

The hijab is a modern importation from Middle Eastern Islamist movements. It is a specifically political symbol.
 
Nobody in this thread has noted it, but the Islamist hijab is not a traditional part of Turkish headscarf and folk clothing garb. Traditional Turkish folk headscarf are very different and aren't explicitly Islamist looking.

The hijab is a modern importation from Middle Eastern Islamist movements. It is a specifically political symbol.

It's not, the same happen in the whole muslim world, they just make them cheaper wherever they are making it.

Some of the traditional turkish garment use to hide a lot more than the modern hijab you see in Istanbul.

2537554581_895a58d6f8.jpg

(upper class-1880)

1363099535_offer_tekbir93.jpg

(modern turkish hijab that you see everywhere in Istanbul)
 
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