It is a mess and Greece has been royally fucked over by the rest of the EU...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-35696152
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-35696152
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UN says Europe is 'on cusp of self-induced crisis'
- Thread starter Tak3n
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You can thank that idiot Merkel for much of this. The moment she called on migrants to come to Germany many ordinary Syrians, safe in Turkish and Jordanian camps flocked to Europe. It also doesn't help that the EU doesn't have a unified immigration policy or pan European border control agencies to help control the flow.
The UN is correct, this is entirely of Europe's own doing.
The UN is correct, this is entirely of Europe's own doing.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
That refugees have to seek asylum in the country of their arrival fucks over so many countries but IIRC that can't change that w/o the approval of all EU countries. Just 1 naysayer is enough to stop any progress made.
Fallout-NL
Member
While she doesn't deserve to be called an idiot for doing the right thing, I do admit it wouldn't hurt to impose some type of structure on this issue.
gutter_trash
Banned
Germany fucked up,
shitting on Greece, then opening the flood gates for migrants,
then having Eastern countries who are poorer face the influx of migrants crossing through,
then shitting on Greece so more by threatening to build a wall around Greece
shitting on Greece, then opening the flood gates for migrants,
then having Eastern countries who are poorer face the influx of migrants crossing through,
then shitting on Greece so more by threatening to build a wall around Greece
Well, if you ignore the UNs incapability of acting on the root cause. They failed to act at least four times sticking Europe to handle the problem.
EU has been a joke since 2008. Should have never expanded so far.
Should have created a core european state with france, benelux and germany and slowly expand instead of this trainwreck of 28 countries.
The EU does not function correctly. I love the idea, I love european jurisprudence and human rights (the best part of the entire project), and am a liberal. But as currently set up it cannot overcome national interests to respond to any kind of crises at all. Not the financial one, not this one, not any one. And certainly not in a reasonable time frame.
The UK should leave, and perhaps that would be the impetus for fixing the whole thing before it collapses.
Because the way it is is disgusting. I hope for the best for all the poor refugees.
And shame on Merkel for continuing to send out the message that everyone is welcome while this is happening. Madness.
The UK should leave, and perhaps that would be the impetus for fixing the whole thing before it collapses.
Because the way it is is disgusting. I hope for the best for all the poor refugees.
And shame on Merkel for continuing to send out the message that everyone is welcome while this is happening. Madness.
Infighting will doom the European project. There's no sense of solidarity, whereby what should be something like a workplace where everyone works together for mutual prosperity becomes more like a mad-hatter's version of jail where nobody's quite sure who the warden is but nobody can get out.
Left turns in Spain and Portugal help to fix the problem somewhat. More French leadership could perhaps restore sanity, but folks like Cameron or that new Polish PM with the name I can't spell (Szydlo or something?) are going to drag the whole continent down until there's enough political pressure for a reform quorum.
Left turns in Spain and Portugal help to fix the problem somewhat. More French leadership could perhaps restore sanity, but folks like Cameron or that new Polish PM with the name I can't spell (Szydlo or something?) are going to drag the whole continent down until there's enough political pressure for a reform quorum.
June 23
gutter_trash
Banned
Merkel the biggest negative out of all this IMO. Complete no respect for smaller countries.
People piling on the UK wanting out are throwing their eggs in the wrong direction.
Merkel has been screwing over smaller countries for too long.
It is a bullshit system
Carl2291
Member
I think the right thing would have been working with other EU leaders and arranging something that worked for the majority Europe, not piling more unneeded and unwanted pressure on already struggling countries.
WaffleTaco
Wants to outlaw technological innovation.
As someone not very aware of the situation...but why is not more being done to help the migrants set up a life here? It just seems from my view that a bunch of xenophobes do not want middle easterns there.
This going to get ugly and not even by summer, but within the next couple of months. The numbers of migrants are ten-twenty fold higher than the same time last year.
Greece could have a couple hundred thousand migrants over the next 3 months stuck within their borders. Chaos and violence will almost certainly result in cash strapped, politically unstable, economically decimated Greece.
Merkel is responsible for both the migrant and economic situation in Greece. She really did a number to that country.
Open's the doors, the doors become flooded, can't close them, begs and threatens other states to open their doors, most refuse, then reinforces these doors and closes them halfway, creating a bottleneck that stretches all the way to Greece creating these conditions.
Last year when Merkel opened her mouth and invited the world, she should've been prepared for the world to come (and they did).
Or she should've practice the common sense option and said nothing while quietly
setting up facilities and accepting the refugees that did come. The migrants/refugees that had no other choice would've found their way to Europe anyways, but the numbers would've been more manageable and had less economic migrants amongst them.
Greece could have a couple hundred thousand migrants over the next 3 months stuck within their borders. Chaos and violence will almost certainly result in cash strapped, politically unstable, economically decimated Greece.
Merkel is responsible for both the migrant and economic situation in Greece. She really did a number to that country.
Open's the doors, the doors become flooded, can't close them, begs and threatens other states to open their doors, most refuse, then reinforces these doors and closes them halfway, creating a bottleneck that stretches all the way to Greece creating these conditions.
Last year when Merkel opened her mouth and invited the world, she should've been prepared for the world to come (and they did).
Or she should've practice the common sense option and said nothing while quietly
setting up facilities and accepting the refugees that did come. The migrants/refugees that had no other choice would've found their way to Europe anyways, but the numbers would've been more manageable and had less economic migrants amongst them.
silvermember
Banned
Do you even understand what the is UN and How much real power they actually have?
SporeCrawler
Member
oh so its merkels fault that ISIS, Rebels, Syrian Army, Turks, Russians and Kurds are fighting in Syria? It was the right thing to do to give refugees a safe haven when they are likely to be killed by war. the geneva convention demands it.
Also people should not forget that its the states alongside the balkan route that have blocked the way to germany while denying any chance of a european solution. Greece is being fucked over but its not merkel that has done it but states like austria.
UK has no say in this issue as they are out of the schengen room anyway
UN has no powers
QuicheFontaine
Member
You can bet your bottom dollar that the UK will be that naysayer.
Admittedly, that might not be a problem much longer.
Of course, but it is easy for them to point at Europe solely when its members are to blame. Mainly the USA, China and Russia failing to come to a deal on Assad preventing all military action.
Onlinehero
Member
"Refugees need somewhere to go, Germany is at fault!"
And guess what, Sweden is alright still, and I have all the benefits in the world. Wouldn't live anyplace else. Well, maybe Germany.
Carry your damn weight and stop bitching, EU members.
And guess what, Sweden is alright still, and I have all the benefits in the world. Wouldn't live anyplace else. Well, maybe Germany.
Carry your damn weight and stop bitching, EU members.
TatteredHat
Member
The EU grew way too big, way too fast, and now it's incapable of making any proper decisions.
maniac-kun
Member
Literaly yesterday Merkel said every thing is going to stay the way we handeled it so far. Today she announced refugees should stay in Greece and the time to freely walk whereever they want is over.
Fenderputty
Banned
The EU was never a fiscal union. Proper decisions were always going to be difficult.
Frankfurter
Member
Oh really? Merkel has tried to do that for like 9 months by now, but most of the other european countries (notably including the UK and France) are like "Fuck you".
Merkel did the only responsible thing when she welcomed refugees, because they were stranded in Europe and more would have followed anyway, but there is zero solidarity within the EU right now.
Anyone that believes refugees will suddenly stop coming to Europe if Europe just says "Nope!" is fooling themselves. You can't stop these refugees from seeking a better place to live/survive, unless you get to the root of the problem (Syria, Eritrea, Iraq, Afghanistan etc. etc.).
Refugees came before Merkel welcomed them (in huge amounts!) and they will come if she ever retracts that statement.
Frankfurter
Member
You got a link for that?
silvermember
Banned
They are simply providing an analysis. It is not their job to deal with the root cause nor do I think China and Russia have any incentive to prevent a destabilize Europe. It benefits both nations militarily, especially Russia.
So, the root cause is not relevant, since the UN can not do anything about. They are simply saying Europe is in trouble and something should be done about it. That's the UN doing their job. Also I think you are confusing the UN Security council with the UN proper where Russia, China and US all try to undermine each other.
SporeCrawler
Member
the basic way of handling it is that she wants to work with turkey and to strenghten boarder controls in greece and italy to limit influx while having a european distribution formula.
the former is basically agreed by everyone while the latter is where nobody wants to take in anybody (with some exceptions. i heard portugal will take in some)
The UK wanting out gives credence to the Euroskeptics and helps create the narrative of a sinking ship though. Especially because Cameron's more corporate backers should be shitting their pants at the idea of a plebiscite. British banks would come out the number one losers from Brexit (along with many others, but banks and investment firms getting additional hurdles to euromarkets means they'll start losing to competitors who are still on the inside). I agree Brexit is mostly a sideshow to the big problems, but it definitely has its place, especially since the UK, as one of the P5, should have a better view of international leadership.
That's the issue. EU has become to big to properly start any big reforms.
With the current EU set up you will never see a United States of Europe. EU needs to slim down to make any meaningful progress.
You Are Viewtiful
Member
The EU was sustainable until a lot of Eastern European countries joined in IMO.
The root cause is very relevant because the EU countries structure their foreign policy mostly by what US wants to see. Now, after decades of shitty powerplays and installed dictators, we get to reap the benefits of ass kissing a country that's a ocean away from it's mess.
SporeCrawler
Member
lets not forget that the EU exists since 2009 with the treaty of lisboa. before that there were only three european communities (EC, Euratom and the Montan Union) that were sorta related. Unifying those into one organization itself was a big step and the EU already has its own constitution and the possibility to make its own laws (regulation and directives).
Even the European Parliament, which had no real powers before, has now some legislative powers although the council and the commission are still superior.
The question is how to delegate even more powers to the european parliament while weakening the council and the commission. at the moment both council and commission are making the EU too slow and too un-democratic
silvermember
Banned
I am not saying the root cause is not relevant. I AM saying that the UN cannot deal with the root cause because it is not their job nor is it within their authority (that was my intent maybe it came across incorrectly). You are right that it is pretty much the US and Russia's fault that the Syria crisis is happening but since nobody can do shit to both countries, it is up to the EU to deal with it, itself.
In any case, EU problems from my understanding are far greater than the Syria crisis. All the Syria Crisis is doing is accelerating an already fragile union.
There is a lot being done, but the stream of people is too big for the European countries to handle. Merkel opened up Germany with a lot refugees fleeing to neighbouring countries like England, Holland, Belgium, France etc. More Eastern-European countries don't help out because of their financial situations and its really difficult to convince them to offer refugees safety.
In Holland for example we have so many applicants that a portion have to live in tents.
Frankfurter
Member
That's not really the same thing you said, though. She just said that the plan that existed all along (building those centres in Greece) by now is apparently finished to some extent, which means that refugees will need to stay in Greece until they are relocated to other countries. It's not like Merkel expects Greece to take a million or maybe two million refugees this year. Whatever you think of her, she's certainly not that stupid.
"Refugees need somewhere to go, Germany is at fault!"
And guess what, Sweden is alright still, and I have all the benefits in the world. Wouldn't live anyplace else. Well, maybe Germany.
Carry your damn weight and stop bitching, EU members.
Why should they? They didn't create the mess in the middle east and they didn't ask for the migrants to come, as well as most aren't the first country of entry for the migrants and so asylum doesn't apply.
For the good of the Germany? that rules the EU and demands austerity from economically depressed states, and pushes it's suicidal pathological altruism (along with its little brother Sweden) on other states?
For the good of corporations and the richest men in Europe, that want cheap labour and bring everyone's wages down?
For the good of security? Which has been exploited already by radical fundmentalists like the terrorist attacks in paris, foiled attacks, and violence that occurs every week somewhere in Europe.
For the good of Women? New Years Eve.
For the good of parties that want more votes and an increase of government bureaucracy?
For the good of diversity? whose elite supporters never experience in their ethnically European only, gated enclaves
For the sins of the past? Eastern European states were colonists and slave traders? more like colonized, subjugated and conquered.
But the UN might be the root cause itself, because any decision on the treatment of refugees is dependent on the UN rules for the treatment of refugees.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
An argument/opinion, amazing isn't it.
Onlinehero
Member
Looking at that list there are a lot of crappy states that could take a note or two on how to run their shit looking at equality, economy, security, welfare and diversity. One of the good guys committed one of the biggest sins against humanity in recent times. Still, doing great now! Start improving in this area and you might just find your way to the big leagues.
Pass the blame all you'd like. There are a couple of countries handling the situation while doing a good job of it, and a lot of lazy fucks holding on to their christian values of being bigot pricks.
protonion
Member
A distant relative of mine works for an NGO at Lesvos.
She says that refugees arive every minute. The worst is that after the initial shock from seeing a drowned one, she does not feel a thing anymore...
A small part of the life jackets.
1 million arrived just last year. And there are at least 3 more...
And now I read Turkey does not allow NATO ships to approach the area and a german minister to land in a few days via helicopter. I mean WTF with this country seriously.
She says that refugees arive every minute. The worst is that after the initial shock from seeing a drowned one, she does not feel a thing anymore...
A small part of the life jackets.
1 million arrived just last year. And there are at least 3 more...
And now I read Turkey does not allow NATO ships to approach the area and a german minister to land in a few days via helicopter. I mean WTF with this country seriously.
Skellig Gra
Member
Should we place no blame on the forces driving the people out of their homelands?
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
sad actually
We had years to prepare and or find a solution. Asylum doesn't apply because of a treaty that is stupid and favours countries massively that aren't EU borders.
Germany doesn't rule the EU, they hold much sway based on their economical power and size but they don't rule it.
That's why asylum seekers usually don't get a work permit or only a limited one
That's more a critique to EU intelligence and security services.
A tragedy that's going to be abused for populism
If they can vote I'd wager they are already fairly well integrated
What about the regular supporters?
Sins of the past are oftentimes stupid. Agreed there.
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