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[Paasei]

The electricity grid in the Netherlands is not ancient or badly designed. Just like everywhere else on the world it was made for a one way transfer. What's been happening is that the government is pushing electrification so hard that demand is rising much faster than electricity companies can manage. For years the national government (and the EU) are pushing everyone to electric cars, to switch from gas to electricity, to install solar panels on the roofs of houses and businesses, to phase out coal plants and switch to wind turbines and solar parks, etc. It was clear years ago that electric companies didn't have the man power to keep up with the rising demand. It's not just demand, the whole system has to be rebuilt to accommodate two-way transfer of electricity. But the government keeps pushing for more instead of hitting the pause button or the brake.

So in the end, it's still incompetence / lack of vision.

 

[kruis]

So in the end, it's still incompetence / lack of vision.

An incompetent government that makes overambitious plans and thinks that by setting implementation deadlines (2030 it can somehow reshape reality. And when those plans fail, they're unwilling to change any of their foolish plans, but push harder and make everything even more expensive. Fuckin' idiots, all of them.

 

[YCoCg]

An incompetent government that makes overambitious plans and thinks that by setting implementation deadlines (2030 it can somehow reshape reality. And when those plans fail, they're unwilling to change any of their foolish plans, but push harder and make everything even more expensive. Fuckin' idiots, all of them.

But then there's the problem of privatised Vs public ownership. Governments set these plans but the privatised companies aren't reinvesting into the companies they own to upgrade the infrastructure, we've seen it all over that most of these services are happy to keep the engine running with duct tape slapped on it if it means they can run it as cheap as possible and keep the profit.

Last year alone one energy provider in the UK made over two billion in profit, yes, PROFIT not earnings. But hardly any improvements are being made to the grid outside of basic maintenance to make sure it's still working.

So what can be done? If the Government tries to force anything people scream it's socialism and communism so there has to be a way to convince these companies and shareholders to invest into making things better right? But how do we do that?

 

[P:axMagellanic]

'So what can be done? If the Government tries to force anything people scream it's socialism and communism so'

That's America, public ownership is massively popular here. This privatisation of utilities and transport has taken the piss for nearly 40 years now with these cunts pocketing every penny and not investing in future infrastructure.

 

[AJUMP23]

But then there's the problem of privatised Vs public ownership. Governments set these plans but the privatised companies aren't reinvesting into the companies they own to upgrade the infrastructure, we've seen it all over that most of these services are happy to keep the engine running with duct tape slapped on it if it means they can run it as cheap as possible and keep the profit.

Last year alone one energy provider in the UK made over two billion in profit, yes, PROFIT not earnings. But hardly any improvements are being made to the grid outside of basic maintenance to make sure it's still working.

So what can be done? If the Government tries to force anything people scream it's socialism and communism so there has to be a way to convince these companies and shareholders to invest into making things better right? But how do we do that?

'So what can be done? If the Government tries to force anything people scream it's socialism and communism so'

That's America, public ownership is massively popular here. This privatisation of utilities and transport has taken the piss for nearly 40 years now with these cunts pocketing every penny and not investing in future infrastructure.

Maybe some of the solutions would be to deregulate to some extent. In the US it is nearly impossible to build a new Nuclear power plant due to the federal and local regulation. Yes you need safety and checks and ensure you don't end up with a meltdown. The last plant turned on in CA was in 86. The most recent in the US is TN, and that was last year, but before that is was 2016. CA desperately need more power plants but they will not allow it. US seems to build them all in the North east or the south.

 

[AJUMP23]

 

[YCoCg]

Maybe some of the solutions would be to deregulate to some extent. In the US it is nearly impossible to build a new Nuclear power plant due to the federal and local regulation. Yes you need safety and checks and ensure you don't end up with a meltdown. The last plant turned on in CA was in 86. The most recent in the US is TN, and that was last year, but before that is was 2016. CA desperately need more power plants but they will not allow it. US seems to build them all in the North east or the south.

But the issue still isn't the source it's the pipeline delivery, the infrastructure isn't suited to modern power needs, it needs updating in most countries. You've got countries still running on power networks last updated in the 1950s and 1960s.

No one is providing a workable solution to upgrade these because no one wants to give up their profit. When plans are drawn up and brought to the table it gets voted down by the higher ups.

How can we change this? We're getting to a point where it is becoming more obvious there's a need to upgrade but no one wants to give up their part of the pie and noone wants the government to get involved as that's "socialism/communism". What can be done?

 

[Zathalus]

Lack of power generation doesn't appear to be the cause of the problem here.

 

[xrnzaaas]

It's crazy for an entire country (or two) to go out for half a day. No matter if this was a "bug" or not, it should be a serious wake up call that we can't sit on our asses and let the infrastructure age AND also can't rely on renewable energy alone. Especially not now with people having more electronic devices than ever before and the push to transition to electric vehicles. Activists pushing for stuff like shutting down nuclear plants should present their calculations first how the country is supposed to run on unstable and weaker renewables.

 

[Angry_Megalodon]

Spain is run by crazy activists with literal ZERO knowledge of what they are doing and this is the result. I'm amazed no pangolin has been blamed on yet.

As we say, "enjoy what's been voted"

 

[YCoCg]

Lack of power generation doesn't appear to be the cause of the problem here.

EXACTLY. A thing I suspect a lot of people here wouldn't know is that there's phases where green energy is OVER generating to the points where it's decided to switch off panels and stop turbines because there's actually limited storage for the surplus energy, and in a lot of cases it's turned off because they also don't want to undervalue the energy costs too. So we're back to infrastructure of places switching to green energy but not having the system in place to actually store said energy for later use, causing an overflow on the grid.

As I mentioned earlier some companies try to offset this with free energy days where they know they'll generating more than can be used so they're actively encouraging people to use more energy on those days and not charge them for it. But that's just a band aid solution.

Most countries need a major overhaul of their grids but they also need a solution and a viable way to store green energy, big batteries arn't enough here, we need something better and we need shareholders and such of these private companies to actually put up some cash to get this done.

we can't sit on our access and let the infrastructure age AND also can't rely on renewable energy alone. Especially not know with people having more electronic devices than ever before and the push to transition to electric vehicles. Activists pushing for stuff like shutting down nuclear plants should present their calculations first how the country is supposed to run on unstable and weaker renewables.

Read above, I'm not against Nuclear either, in a perfect world nuclear would be the backup with green providing the mainline. We need a way to store surplus energy when it comes to green and a way to stabilise two way energy across the entire grids so places can feed back excess.

I have solar panels, I used to send surplus energy to the grid to "help" out and got a discount on any energy I did use, but since I've got a wall battery I'd rather keep it for myself as it works out cheaper for me and because during surplus times all I was doing was "pissing energy on the grid", it wasn't being used by other homes, it was just overloading things as it had no direct path back to suppliers.

There needs to be a real rethink on why it's acceptable to do the bare minimum for our source grids and networks, why we're happy to just let companies tie things together with string and duck tape, why we're cool with companies just turning off solar panels and stopping turbines because "we can't devalue our energy and charge people less". JUST switching to green is one part of the puzzle but as I said, most countries are still on 1950s and 1960s builds, majority of the UK base is still on the changes that happened when the system was changed in the mid 1970s, etc. Just generating energy isn't enough, we need ways to store this energy for later use, we need to be building a network grid that can handle fluctuation of usage, we need a way to encourage people already with solar panels and other green measures to stay on the grid and have a way for energy to be fed back in and repurposed properly.

But no one wants to give up the profit for that.

 

[Herbspiceguy]

This push of mass green electrification driven by (EU) political agendas, at the expense of valuable industry, new housing and companies that cannot be connected to electricity because grid congestion is increasing, is one of the most confusing developments of our modern age.
And they know about the risks; they've been preparing us for outages and telling us to use (car) chargers only in certain hours of the day, over recent years. It's insane.

 

[AJUMP23]

But the issue still isn't the source it's the pipeline delivery, the infrastructure isn't suited to modern power needs, it needs updating in most countries. You've got countries still running on power networks last updated in the 1950s and 1960s.

No one is providing a workable solution to upgrade these because no one wants to give up their profit. When plans are drawn up and brought to the table it gets voted down by the higher ups.

How can we change this? We're getting to a point where it is becoming more obvious there's a need to upgrade but no one wants to give up their part of the pie and noone wants the government to get involved as that's "socialism/communism". What can be done?

I would suppose if the private sector owns the generation they should own the delivery. Update the infrastructure for delivery. That happens around here yearly they take sections and update some part of the infrastructure lines and poles.

 

[ScHlAuChi]

France has 18 operating nuclear power plants, we are making 70% of all energy using them. Here's French people when they hear Germans talking about closing the plants:

Reality check - France had to shutdown half of its nuclear reactors in 2022 due to rivers being too hot!

French nuclear plants break a sweat over heat wave – DW – 08/15/2022

Successive heat waves are putting French nuclear reactors under strain. But that is not pushing them into an existential crisis, as Lisa Louis reports from Paris.

www.dw.com

And the follow up years werent much better:

Heatwave forces French nuclear power plants to limit energy output

The high temperature warning has come early this year but will affect fewer nuclear power plants.

www.euronews.com

France Warns of Nuclear Cuts as European Heat Intensifies

Electricite de France SA will likely curtail production at nuclear reactors from this weekend as the heat wave engulfing most of the continent is set to strengthen.

www.bnnbloomberg.ca

But maybe this wont happen in 2025! (Spoiler: it will)

 

[YCoCg]

I would suppose if the private sector owns the generation they should own the delivery. Update the infrastructure for delivery. That happens around here yearly they take sections and update some part of the infrastructure lines and poles.

But here's the kicker, the private sector is OK with the grid providing the bare minimum. Anytime it's brought up it's voted down, especially in cases where it would REDUCE the cost of energy for households because green energy could be ran at all times but would be supported better by the grid and potentially have ways of storing the surplus for later use.

What can be done to convince these people making bank on the system and the grid staying this way? From their POV there's nothing to be gained from this, and they are the ones in charge.

 

[Great Auk]

'So what can be done? If the Government tries to force anything people scream it's socialism and communism so'

That's America, public ownership is massively popular here. This privatisation of utilities and transport has taken the piss for nearly 40 years now with these cunts pocketing every penny and not investing in future infrastructure.

Our energy is cheaper than Europe's while we make more money annually on average.

 

[Zathalus]

Our energy is cheaper than Europe's while we make more money annually on average.

You really can't help yourself can you?

 

[Radical_3d]

Our energy is cheaper than Europe's while we make more money annually on average.

And your public infrastructures look like the ones from a third world country. Not to mention you're the only developed country where Breaking Bad could be filmed.

manchego

in Germany? Nothing happens...

Germany. Where nothing ever happens. EVER. They were on vacations!!

Spoiler: Just following orders!

 

[terintamel]

And your public infrastructures look like the ones from a third world country. Not to mention you're the only developed country where Breaking Bad could be filmed.

Part of that, when comparing to Europe, is because our infrastructure is much older and did not have to be rebuilt after WW1 and WW2. Alot of European energy infrastructure is new because it had to be replaced as it was utterly destroyed in the 1940s. I bet some of that replacement infrastructure after the war was also funded by the US taxpayer too.

 

[Zathalus]

Part of that, when comparing to Europe, is because our infrastructure is much older and did not have to be rebuilt after WW1 and WW2. Alot of European energy infrastructure is new because it had to be replaced as it was utterly destroyed in the 1940s. I bet some of that replacement infrastructure after the war was also funded by the US taxpayer too.

The Marshall Plan greatly helped out Europe after the devastation of WW2, but the term 'funded by the US taxpayer' makes it sound like the US or US citizens got zero benefit from it, when in reality the Marshall Plan paid for itself several times over. It and the Japanese reconstruction were probably some of the smartest international aid grants/loans the USA has ever done. It helped turn enemies into friends, assisted in securing the American hegemony for the following 70 years, and contributed to the great economic boom that followed over the next decades.

 

[Great Auk]

You really can't help yourself can you?

Am I wrong?

 

[Radical_3d]

Part of that, when comparing to Europe, is because our infrastructure is much older and did not have to be rebuilt after WW1 and WW2. Alot of European energy infrastructure is new because it had to be replaced as it was utterly destroyed in the 1940s. I bet some of that replacement infrastructure after the war was also funded by the US taxpayer too.

Spain is what you'd consider third world if you saw our wages. Modest southern country. The Marshall plan never got here because, well, we were still fascist and stuff… Out airports and high speed rail roads are fairly new or renewed (like the T4 in Barajas). Git gud, 'muricans. Now that we're going to pay for our wars is your chance.

 

[Great Auk]

And your public infrastructures look like the ones from a third world country. Not to mention you're the only developed country where Breaking Bad could be filmed.

Germany. Where nothing ever happens. EVER. They were on vacations!!

Spoiler: Just following orders!

I stated a fact. Not sure why you got so defensive.

And what infrastructure looks like the third world? I'll give you the NYC subway. But it's the only system that runs 24 hours a day 7 days a week and has over 400 subway stations and is also over 120 years old. Couple that with MTA union corruption and things improve slow.

 

[YCoCg]

Am I wrong?

I stated a fact.

Correct on the first part but then randomly mentioning average wage felt like just a out of nowhere thing, I like a nice chilli.

 

[Zathalus]

Am I wrong?

No, but why did you post it? What does it contribute to the discussion? It's about as dumb as posting in a thread about spiraling health costs in the US and then smugly proclaiming that Europeans pay less and live longer. Factually true, but it makes you look like a bit of an asshole.

 

[Trilobit]

I stated a fact. Not sure why you got so defensive.

Another fact which is also cool is how the great auks are the real og penguins. Blew my mind when I heard about it.

<- Fakers!

 

[Great Auk]

No, but why did you post it? What does it contribute to the discussion? It's about as dumb as posting in a thread about spiraling health costs in the US and then smugly proclaiming that Europeans pay less and live longer. Factually true, but it makes you look like a bit of an asshole.

I posted it to correct the person that was saying that our energy costs are really high here. I'm trying to say that it's actually worse in Europe and we have it pretty good all things considered. It wasn't meant as a put down.

About two thirds of my family still lives in Europe. I know from visiting them in summer over the years and seeing the electric bill I was astonished that they pay so much.

 

[Great Auk]

Correct on the first part but then randomly mentioning average wage felt like just a out of nowhere thing, I like a nice chilli.

I was trying to respond to that person that our energy is actually cheaper while also making more money on average, which means it's even less of a burden to the home budget.

It wasn't meant as an insult.

 

[AJUMP23]

Correct on the first part but then randomly mentioning average wage felt like just a out of nowhere thing, I like a nice chilli.

No, but why did you post it? What does it contribute to the discussion? It's about as dumb as posting in a thread about spiraling health costs in the US and then smugly proclaiming that Europeans pay less and live longer. Factually true, but it makes you look like a bit of an asshole.

HAHA look at you POORS!

That is what I saw.

 

[Zathalus]

I posted it to correct the person that was saying that our energy costs are really high here. I'm trying to say that it's actually worse in Europe and we have it pretty good all things considered. It wasn't meant as a put down.

About two thirds of my family still lives in Europe. I know from visiting them in summer over the years and seeing the electric bill I was astonished that they pay so much.

We pay so much for a number of reasons. It is an extremely stable grid system with blackouts usually being resolved extremely quickly (hence this being so utterly unusual), while stable the grid in a number of areas need urgent upgrades, gas prices shot up dramatically due to the Russian situation (both the war and Russia being a dick before the war), and many countries are investing heavily in renewables to combat both emissions and be more energy independent (as Russia was a wake-up call).

The ideal situation is to invest heavily into solar, wind, and hydro, and then have Nuclear cover the rest (as while renewables are great, dunkelflaute is a thing). Many European countries have made great progress on the first, but the Nuclear question is a problem, because the cost and construction time is so bonkers, as the USA knows as well. Another solution is to invest heavily into storage mechanisms to store the renewable generation for situations when the shortfall occurs, a costly investment as well, but progress is being made. Unfortunately, gas/oil is simply not an option in a future where the European nations don't want to be reliant on other (not very friendly) countries for energy production.

 

[P:axMagellanic]

Our energy is cheaper than Europe's while we make more money annually on average.

Not seeing your point here, pal. The US is blessed to be a massive energy producer whilst our North Sea reserves have dwindled. It depends on which state/country as well. We got absolutely screwed here in GB for example because of atrocious neolib shithousery for 30 years pocketing every penny of profit, and a lackadaisical energy policy from Westminster that hasn't invested in nuclear.
Again, because they're neolib zealots that don't believe in public utilities.

Part of that, when comparing to Europe, is because our infrastructure is much older and did not have to be rebuilt after WW1 and WW2. Alot of European energy infrastructure is new because it had to be replaced as it was utterly destroyed in the 1940s. I bet some of that replacement infrastructure after the war was also funded by the US taxpayer too.

Not really.

The US utterly obliterated many of it's cities post war in favour of the the automobile, urban sprawl and interstate highways. Seriously, look into the before and after. The United States had genuinely beautiful cities with second to none mass transit, tram and light rail at the first half of the last century. Europe didn't have the Lebensraum of North America so avoided the worst of urban sprawl. But it did however suffer atrocious urban planning and postmodernist horrors.

 

[mopspear]

I mean, boats are full of African engineers so he couldn't be incompetent.

Hey that guy in the orange life jacket has a STEAM CONTROLLER!

 

[YCoCg]

HAHA look at you POORS!

That is what I saw.

And when you have a small trip, break your leg and your insurance informs you they're not going to cover it as it's your fault as you ride in the ambulance

 

[Cyberpunkd]

But maybe this wont happen in 2025! (Spoiler: it will)

 

[Great Auk]

Not seeing your point here, pal. The US is blessed to be a massive energy producer whilst our North Sea reserves have dwindled. It depends on which state/country as well. We got absolutely screwed here in GB for example because of atrocious neolib shithousery for 30 years pocketing every penny of profit, and a lackadaisical energy policy from Westminster that hasn't invested in nuclear.
Again, because they're neolib zealots that don't believe in public utilities.

I was just trying to say that actually our energy costs are not that bad considering what others in Europe pay and when taking into account annual wages.

If anything I was trying to say that we shouldn't complain too much here in the US and that things could be worse.

It wasn't meant as an insult.

How much are taxes responsible for higher energy costs? I know that's a primary reason why gasoline is so much more expensive in Europe for example.

 

[Great Auk]

We pay so much for a number of reasons. It is an extremely stable grid system with blackouts usually being resolved extremely quickly (hence this being so utterly unusual), while stable the grid in a number of areas need urgent upgrades, gas prices shot up dramatically due to the Russian situation (both the war and Russia being a dick before the war), and many countries are investing heavily in renewables to combat both emissions and be more energy independent (as Russia was a wake-up call).

The ideal situation is to invest heavily into solar, wind, and hydro, and then have Nuclear cover the rest (as while renewables are great, dunkelflaute is a thing). Many European countries have made great progress on the first, but the Nuclear question is a problem, because the cost and construction time is so bonkers, as the USA knows as well. Another solution is to invest heavily into storage mechanisms to store the renewable generation for situations when the shortfall occurs, a costly investment as well, but progress is being made. Unfortunately, gas/oil is simply not an option in a future where the European nations don't want to be reliant on other (not very friendly) countries for energy production.

I agree with your ideal situation. We really need that nuclear energy to maintain the steady baseload. I wish more places would embrace it.

 

[Tams]

You're under an illusion anything would change..

You'd still wait 14 hours in A&E
Shoplifting would still happen
There'd still be knife crime
You still wouldn't be able to reach civil service

I think the only things that'd be impacted is your local Turkish barber couldn't launder money for five minutes and the Barclays bank, town council office and Five Guys wouldn't have their lights on all night for no reason

• So no change
• So no change, but also that doesn't happen were I live (yet)
• So no change, but also that doesn't happen were I live (yet)
• So no change and good.

No change with the Turkish 'barbers' and town council. We don't have a single bank any more (saw the faded lettering of one on a building getting washed today), and there isn't a Five Guys for many, many miles.

 

[TheGrat1]

For the love of god let it be aliens

Please

Close....

Those are the largest children I've ever seen!

The Marshall Plan greatly helped out Europe after the devastation of WW2, but the term 'funded by the US taxpayer' makes it sound like the US or US citizens got zero benefit from it, when in reality the Marshall Plan paid for itself several times over. It and the Japanese reconstruction were probably some of the smartest international aid grants/loans the USA has ever done. It helped turn enemies into friends, assisted in securing the American hegemony for the following 70 years, and contributed to the great economic boom that followed over the next decades.

That is all well and good, but...

 

[Hyet]

Spain is run by crazy activists with literal ZERO knowledge of what they are doing and this is the result. I'm amazed no pangolin has been blamed on yet.

This. There is no intention of running the coutry. Parties are in a constant electoral campaing and they only work to win the narrative, not to administrate anything. They just want the access to resources for their own personal used. Spain's current goverment would have lasted 3 monts in any other country where people and institutions actualy react and remain independent.

As we say, "enjoy what's been voted"

Funny thing is, current MP doesn't have voters support and runs a minority goverment backed by separatists, literal former terrorists and far left ideologues that think have chickens produce eggs constitutes rape. On top of that, the goverment doesn't even has the trust of said allies in parlament. They has been unable to pass most of the laws thay have attempted and they are incapable of producing a budget for their term.

Spain is primed to be very well positioned in the energy race because of renewables, but not having diversity in the grid for ideological reasons has it's price. It doesn't really matter because policy makers ain't paying. They won't die on an elevator or have their house burned down by candle fire next time lights go out for 12 hours.