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[Nabbis]

Looking at that list there are a lot of crappy states that could take a note or two on how to run their shit looking at equality, economy, security, welfare and diversity. One of the good guys committed one of the biggest sins against humanity in recent times. Still, doing great now! Start improving in this area and you might just find your way to the big leagues.

Pass the blame all you'd like. There are a couple of countries handling the situation while doing a good job of it, and a lot of lazy fucks holding on to their christian values of being bigot pricks.

Drinking much koolaid? Clearly Malmö's problems are not real, Husby riots didn't happen and the right wing parties just suddenly experienced a huge growth(compared to their previous numbers) for no apparent reasons. Sweden is also doing a craptastic job of actually integrating all the people it has taken. Also thanks for giving us thousands of refugees escaping from your country through Haparanda, clearly things are so swell there.

If your country is a success story then you can keep it. Not even many Finnish multicultural altruists are that naive.

 

[psynergylover]

A distant relative of mine works for an NGO at Lesvos.

She says that refugees arive every minute. The worst is that after the initial shock from seeing a drowned one, she does not feel a thing anymore...

A small part of the life jackets.

1 million arrived just last year. And there are at least 3 more...

And now I read Turkey does not allow NATO ships to approach the area and a german minister to land in a few days via helicopter. I mean WTF with this country seriously.

woah!

 

[Oriel]

While she doesn't deserve to be called an idiot for doing the right thing, I do admit it wouldn't hurt to impose some type of structure on this issue.

What right thing? What the Syrian refugees need is safe and secure accommodation until the war can be brought to an end. What Merkel did was tell millions of Syrians they were welcome in Germany without a clue as to how she could feed, clothe and accommodate so many people. Not to mention within a week of her "give me your poor" speech the German Govt closed their external borders. Like I said, a total idiot and doing more to wreck European cohesion and solidarity than the likes of UKIP and FN could ever dream of.

Well, if you ignore the UNs incapability of acting on the root cause. They failed to act at least four times sticking Europe to handle the problem.

What can the UN do here? The UNHCR and other UN agencies can only do so much but they're powerless to prevent hundreds of thousands flocking to Western Europe.

oh so its merkels fault that ISIS, Rebels, Syrian Army, Turks, Russians and Kurds are fighting in Syria? It was the right thing to do to give refugees a safe haven when they are likely to be killed by war. the geneva convention demands it.

I never said that, I said it's Merkel's fault for giving false hope to migrants by encouraging them to leave the safety of refugee camps and come to a country that was incapable of taking them.

Also people should not forget that its the states alongside the balkan route that have blocked the way to germany while denying any chance of a european solution. Greece is being fucked over but its not merkel that has done it but states like austria.

The place to decide on a coordinated decision is in Brussels at the Council but so far nothing of any substance has been achieved. The Commission have proposed a new pan European Coast Guard with powers to enforce border controls but the EU Governments are just sitting on these plans doing nothing. So you really can't blame individual countries (many of whom aren't even in the EU, like Macedonia and Serbia) for taking decisions into their own hands.

Should we place no blame on the forces driving the people out of their homelands?

Of course, but blame also must be apportioned to those calling on migrants to make the perilous journey across a continent rather than aggressively pushing for an end to the Syrian Civil War.

 

[Riddick]

Should we place no blame on the forces driving the people out of their homelands?

Who do you think was partly responsible for the (further) destabilization of the Middle East? It wasn't just the US that was involved in this crap, especially in Syria and Libya.

 

[gutter_trash]

The UK wanting out gives credence to the Euroskeptics and helps create the narrative of a sinking ship though. Especially because Cameron's more corporate backers should be shitting their pants at the idea of a plebiscite. British banks would come out the number one losers from Brexit (along with many others, but banks and investment firms getting additional hurdles to euromarkets means they'll start losing to competitors who are still on the inside). I agree Brexit is mostly a sideshow to the big problems, but it definitely has its place, especially since the UK, as one of the P5, should have a better view of international leadership.

who can blame Euroskeptics?
their individual countries were better off being in full control of their currency and laws.

now you got this undemocratic body making up shitty regulations as One-Size-Fits-All mentality that does not work for all countries.

 

[Oriel]

Who do you think was partly responsible for the (further) destabilization of the Middle East? It wasn't just the US starting this crap, especially in Syria and Libya.

It should be remembered that the Syrian conflict had nothing to do with the US, it was a country left untouched by the insurgency in neighbouring Iraq so the usual "let's hate America" mob can't shit on the US for the war in Syria. In fact the war looked like it was approaching a conclusion as rebels were making serious gains across the country prior to September of last year. Then Assad begged Putin to send his air force which was when we saw the massive refugee flows out of Syria into Turkey and beyond, along with sweeping gains by the Axis Forces.

Russia bares a lot of responsibility for this entire crisis and, if I were in anyway conspiracy minded I might say this was intentional on Russia's part, destabilise the EU with millions of migrants and refugees landing on its shores. One things for sure Putin is laughing his ass off at all this.

 

[Tal Shiar Agent]

You need to federalize and each country needs to give up a measure of its sovereignty for the benefit of the whole.

The United States already proved that this type of lackadaisical government of loose confederation of states doesn't work. There needs to be a strong central core.

You can't have this half-measure crap. It's all in or all out.

 

[QuicheFontaine]

UK has no say in this issue as they are out of the schengen room anyway

We were talking about the Dublin Regulation. That's an EU instrument.

 

[Oriel]

who can blame Euroskeptics?
their individual countries were better off being in full control of their currency and laws.

now you got this undemocratic body making up shitty regulations as One-Size-Fits-All mentality that does not work for all countries.

What "undemocratic body" is this? Would that be the European Parliament that is directly elected by all European citizens and which has a say in pretty much every matter concerning the EU?

 

[Skellig Gra]

Who do you think was partly responsible for the (further) destabilization of the Middle East? It wasn't just the US that was involved in this crap, especially in Syria and Libya.

Partly? Of course. I was responding to the comment that this was entirely of Europes own making.

 

[ClosingADoor]

Who do you think was partly responsible for the (further) destabilization of the Middle East? It wasn't just the US that was involved in this crap, especially in Syria and Libya.

We are responsible for civil wars now and dictators slaughtering their own people?

And if you want to go back to the Iraq invasion, keep in mind most of Europe didn't have anything to do with that and didn't participate. The two countries most responsible for that (US and UK) have a nice distance from all this stuff now and are not even looking to help that much.

 

[AstroZombie]

Thanks Merkel.

 

[Vigilant Walrus]

I fear a massacre and genocide. I've never in my lifetime seen xenophobia like this. There are reports of asylums being burned down in Sweden. I can't imagine what it is like in the Eastern European countries who have a history of fighting with muslims.

 

[YourMaster]

While she doesn't deserve to be called an idiot for doing the right thing, I do admit it wouldn't hurt to impose some type of structure on this issue.

It is really offensive to say that this awful and immoral person is doing the right thing when she is lying to her own people, causing harm that will last for decades while she is causing children to drown by the dozens.

There's nothing right in luring people across dangerous seas and barbed fences. Either make a decision on how many people you want to take in - convince your own country that it's the right thing - and go get those people somehow, or stop doubling down on policies that harm countries that are not as foolish and keep filling the Mediterranean with the dead.

 

[Fallout-NL]

Citation needed.

 

[goomba]

It should be remembered that the Syrian conflict had nothing to do with the US, it was a country left untouched by the insurgency in neighbouring Iraq so the usual "let's hate America" mob can't shit on the US for the war in Syria.

The US openly arming and training rebels in Syria to topple the government is nothing to do with the US?

 

[Frustrated_me]

The US openly arming and training rebels in Syria to topple the government is nothing to do with the US?

The Syrian government openly sending terrorists to Iraq via their borders had nothing to do with it? When you harbour terrorists you can bet they will bite your ass later on. What did Assad think would happen when he openly and constantly tried to destabilize Iraq?

Next up; Turkey.

 

[Kinyou]

To be honest Greece should be putting them on planes to Germany, with a note. " you wanted them, here they are"

Incidentally is Merkel now asking the refugees to stay in Greece for now.
http://www.wsj.com/articles/migrants-must-be-registered-in-greece-says-germanys-merkel-1456846515

 

[nib95]

You can thank that idiot Merkel for much of this. The moment she called on migrants to come to Germany many ordinary Syrians, safe in Turkish and Jordanian camps flocked to Europe. It also doesn't help that the EU doesn't have a unified immigration policy or pan European border control agencies to help control the flow.

The UN is correct, this is entirely of Europe's own doing.

It's not Germany's fault, it's much of the rest of Europe for not bloody pulling their own weight. And yea sure, of course Turkey, Jordan, Lebanon etc can just keep taking in endless streams of refugee's when they have already taken in orders of magnitude more than anyone else, with numbers in the millions at even greater cost.

 

[Oriel]

The US openly arming and training rebels in Syria to topple the government is nothing to do with the US?

The US is arming and training the ordinary Syrian people to defend themselves against a brutal Russian and Iranian backed regime. This help began after Assad began the wholesale slaughter of the Syrian people BTW.

 

[ClosingADoor]

It's not Germany's fault, it's much of the rest of Europe for not bloody pulling their own weight. And yea sure, of course Turkey, Jordan, Lebanon etc can just keep taking in endless streams of refugee's when they have already taken in orders of magnitude more than anyone else, with numbers in the millions at even greater cost.

Neighboring countries of warzones always have to take in most. During the Balkan wars people from there fled towards countries nearby. People from Ukraine now fled towards other Eastern European countries.

If you want to say Europe is not pulling its weight, you might as well blame all the world. Saudi Arabia, Russia, the US, Japan, etc. They can all take in people, but don't. But somehow Europe is at fault for taking in a lot already but not wanting an unending stream of people unchecked into their borders?

 

[1.21Gigawatts]

If you want to say Europe is not pulling its weight, you might as well blame all the world.

Might aswell not have any moral values if you're not willing to live up to them.

This is the problem:

Carry your damn weight and stop bitching, EU members.

Why should they?

Is this whats left of european ideals and values? Asking why we should help people in need?

 

[nib95]

Neighboring countries of warzones always have to take in most. During the Balkan wars people from there fled towards countries nearby. People from Ukraine now fled towards other Eastern European countries.

If you want to say Europe is not pulling its weight, you might as well blame all the world. Saudi Arabia, Russia, the US, Japan, etc. They can all take in people, but don't. But somehow Europe is at fault for taking in a lot already but not wanting an unending stream of people unchecked into their borders?

I agree that much of the world is also not pulling it's weight, though certain countries are certainly doing far more than others (e.g. Lebanon, Turkey, Jordan, Germany, Sweden, Canada etc). Personally I'm of the opinion that Britain and the United States share an increased responsibility purely because of the fact that they carried out the illegal Iraq war that was a catalyst to so many of the issues in the region today.

 

[Onlinehero]

Drinking much koolaid? Clearly Malmö's problems are not real, Husby riots didn't happen and the right wing parties just suddenly experienced a huge growth(compared to their previous numbers) for no apparent reasons. Sweden is also doing a craptastic job of actually integrating all the people it has taken. Also thanks for giving us thousands of refugees escaping from your country through Haparanda, clearly things are so swell there.

If your country is a success story then you can keep it. Not even many Finnish multicultural altruists are that naive.

Ah, then I guess the northern border should be seen as a one-way street for white people during times of war? Thanks for the thousands of Finnish refugees by the way, they were a great help to our nation.

Malmö is dealing with its issues, the Husby riots have blown over and actions have been taken. Integration is humming along nicely, especially since we've established a more equal distribution. Smaller rural communities are growing rather than declining, and within the next generation of refugees we'll have a bunch of extremely competent citizens with a fuckload of language competence.

Integration is hard, sitting on you ass won't get the job done. The government and the civilian sector (Red Cross, Save the Children, etc) are doing a tremendous job and are getting better at cooperating. Things will get done, and 83% of the country is making it happen.

But I guess living here and being involved gives a scewed image?

 

[Jenenser]

It is really offensive to say that this awful and immoral person is doing the right thing when she is lying to her own people, causing harm that will last for decades while she is causing children to drown by the dozens.

There's nothing right in luring people across dangerous seas and barbed fences. Either make a decision on how many people you want to take in - convince your own country that it's the right thing - and go get those people somehow, or stop doubling down on policies that harm countries that are not as foolish and keep filling the Mediterranean with the dead.

yeah, just let them rot in their patch of earth while we complain about gettin fatter...
your villinification of merkel is hilarious, she never was the reason all this shit went down, did the humanitarian thing and now gets shit on for that.

how would you have handled the situation?

 

[AcademicSaucer]

It should be remembered that the Syrian conflict had nothing to do with the US, it was a country left untouched by the insurgency in neighbouring Iraq so the usual "let's hate America" mob can't shit on the US for the war in Syria. In fact the war looked like it was approaching a conclusion as rebels were making serious gains across the country prior to September of last year. Then Assad begged Putin to send his air force which was when we saw the massive refugee flows out of Syria into Turkey and beyond, along with sweeping gains by the Axis Forces.

Russia bares a lot of responsibility for this entire crisis and, if I were in anyway conspiracy minded I might say this was intentional on Russia's part, destabilise the EU with millions of migrants and refugees landing on its shores. One things for sure Putin is laughing his ass off at all this.

Its actually the US fault because of its support of Saudi Arabia.

 

[Midas]

I fear a massacre and genocide. I've never in my lifetime seen xenophobia like this. There are reports of asylums being burned down in Sweden. I can't imagine what it is like in the Eastern European countries who have a history of fighting with muslims.

Yeah, it's scary as fuck. Let's not forget the mob of men in central Stockholm, who planned to "take care" of the immigrants. It's getting crazy.

 

[michaelius]

I fear a massacre and genocide. I've never in my lifetime seen xenophobia like this. There are reports of asylums being burned down in Sweden. I can't imagine what it is like in the Eastern European countries who have a history of fighting with muslims.

"Refugees" don't want to go to Eastern European countries where minimal salary is <400 euro monthly.

We have trouble to even find ones willing to come to Poland to fulfill that quota that previous government agreed to take. Which is amazing when you consider typical arguments of how those people need safety from war first.

 

[J2d]

Malmö is dealing with its issues, the Husby riots have blown over and actions have been taken. Integration is humming along nicely, especially since we've established a more equal distribution. Smaller rural communities are growing rather than declining, and within the next generation of refugees we'll have a bunch of extremely competent citizens with a fuckload of language competence.

This seems like a such a positive view of things that I almost consider you delusional, I wish I had such a positive outlook on things..

 

[mrklaw]

While she doesn't deserve to be called an idiot for doing the right thing, I do admit it wouldn't hurt to impose some type of structure on this issue.

She deserves to be called an idiot for not thinking through the repercussions of her stance. Did she think refugees would simply teleport into Germany?

 

[Tak3n]

"Refugees" don't want to go to Eastern European countries where minimal salary is <400 euro monthly.

We have trouble to even find ones willing to come to Poland to fulfill that quota that previous government agreed to take. Which is amazing when you consider typical arguments of how those people need safety from war first.

I lose a lot of sympathy when you see these migrants live if camps and go hungry because they refuse to accept the country they are in and only want the 'best' country

 

[Tak3n]

then we see this today

 

[Oersted]

then we see this today

A cheap tabloid selling on tits and fearmongering?

 

[dolemite]

A cheap tabloid selling on tits and fearmongering?

Britain's fastest growing newspaper, not some tabloid.

 

[Shuggananas]

Thanks angela

 

[Onlinehero]

This seems like a such a positive view of things that I almost consider you delusional, I wish I had such a positive outlook on things..

I'm connected to the issues at hand in part through volunteer efforts, in part through my profession. Once you meet the people who are part of the crisis, and have the intention to aid them in finding jobs, education, and friends in their new society, I'm sure you'd get a different outlook as well.

I'm not saying it isn't hard or that it won't require effort, but if you put in that effort there is a lot to be won. Not just by getting new citizens, but by evolving societal cooperation in times of stress. The conservative nations are at risk of lagging behind in the future, from my view. But hey, time will tell.

 

[Baron Doggystyle von Woof]

1. Try to block every peace talk for the last few years because you have an issue with Assad. (even before the civil war started)
2. Fuck over an EU member (Greece got major shafted, twice actually)
3. Act like most of the refugees are not fleeing from war (all European right win parties).

Yeah, Europe has brought this on to themselves. Meanwhile the US is safe on the other side of the ocean.

If Turkey can take care of 2,5 million refugees, Europe can do this easily.

 

[patapuf]

yeah, just let them rot in their patch of earth while we complain about gettin fatter...
your villinification of merkel is hilarious, she never was the reason all this shit went down, did the humanitarian thing and now gets shit on for that.

how would you have handled the situation?

Merkel might have the right idea, but that's useless if it's not coordinated and agreed upon on a union Level.

It's a case of good intentions leading to bad things.

It's not all on Merkel, the structural issues of the EU will take a long time to solve, if the union doesn't break apart beforehand.

But encouraging everyone to use the balkan route when it's evident that'll lead to a humanitarian catastrophe sooner rather than later is irresponsible. That's reality clashing with ideals. Just because Merkels wants the EU to act as a unit doesn't mean it will. And forcing their hand is inhibiting a solution, rather than facilitating one.

we'll have some really ugly pictures next summer. And some of the poorest regions of Europe will be the most affected by this.

 

[kiguel182]

"Refugees need somewhere to go, Germany is at fault!"

And guess what, Sweden is alright still, and I have all the benefits in the world. Wouldn't live anyplace else. Well, maybe Germany.

Carry your damn weight and stop bitching, EU members.

Oh look, an EU member blaming poor countries. This is the reason this damn "union" doesn't work. Rich countries dictate the rules and then shit on the other countries.

 

[kiguel182]

Germany really screwed up Greece big time.

Asking migrants to come without an infrastructure in place is as irresponsible as you can get. This is just a big mess.

 

[Suen]

The US is arming and training the ordinary Syrian people to defend themselves against a brutal Russian and Iranian backed regime. This help began after Assad began the wholesale slaughter of the Syrian people BTW.

The ordinary Syrian "people" - movements that has ties and cooperate with some of the worst radical extremist groups out there? Or the early "protesters" that chanted "All Christians to Lebanon and death to all Shia Muslims"? Though you're even ignorant of this a simple look at how much US arms that has gone from your "ordinary Syrian people" (Salafists who hijacked the movement) to even worse groups suggest that your statement is barely accurate. Also given US record in the region I find it mind boggling how anyone can think they just tend to just support "the good guys", moreso in regards to Syria whom they had planned to topple years before their savage war in Iraq started. How delusional about the situation do you have to be to even believe your own words? I'll agree though that US is not the one responsible for most of Syria: Saudi Arabia, Turkey and Qatar are for the terrorism they have funded sponsored in Syria and the ones they've even sent themselves. Expect Lebanon next, I'm sure it's just a coincidence that Greek authorities are suddenly seizing ships filled with weapons and explosives coming from a Turkish port heading towards Lebanon after GCC countries and Turkey urged their citizens to leave Lebanon about a week ago for sectarian reasons. Just as its a pure coincidence that Lebanon is one of the countries among Syria and Iraq that was planned to be fucked over by US.

Oh let us know when GCC starts taking just a fragment of what Turkey or Europe has taken, especially after all terrorism they've funded and even their own citizens have caused in Iraq and Syria.

 

[J2d]

I'm connected to the issues at hand in part through volunteer efforts, in part through my profession. Once you meet the people who are part of the crisis, and have the intention to aid them in finding jobs, education, and friends in their new society, I'm sure you'd get a different outlook as well.

I'm not saying it isn't hard or that it won't require effort, but if you put in that effort there is a lot to be won. Not just by getting new citizens, but by evolving societal cooperation in times of stress. The conservative nations are at risk of lagging behind in the future, from my view. But hey, time will tell.

Maybe but things like rural community's growing seems untrue to me, maybe because that's were we can find vacant buildings but I don't see this changing things in the long run at all. And I was under the impression that almost everyone feels like we're doing a poor job at integration with jobs and segregation so humming along nicely seems off? I have no idea about the refuges work skills so maybe that's true still a bit unsure on the language competence part and the use of it?

for myself I'd probably be a bit more positive if I didn't feel like this was a great opportunity for some political parties to further devalue my line of job as a sub nurse, but as you said time will tell..

 

[TanookiTom]

This thread is incredible. All those people bitching about Merkel smh

There would be no such thing as a "refugee crisis" if each EU country would take on their responsibility. Instead you have a few countries bearing 90% of the burden while many others, including large and wealthy countries such as France and especially the UK do literally nothing but building walls.

All those who suggest Merkel is wrong for "having invited" are basically suggesting the refugees should have just stayed in places like Turkey, Lebanon or even Syria and you should be ashamed of yourself.

 

[mrklaw]

Another thing the German stance fucks up is that refugees aren't supposed to be choosing what country they want to go to, and I don't think they're allowed to by EU law? Which is why there are loads camped out in Calais trying to get to the UK and the French aren't allowing them to.

Germany can't just say 'hey come to us' because technically any refugees should be processed where they arrive in Europe (basically Greece) and then sent to a country deemed suitable, not based on personal choice - they're supposed to be fleeing persecution and threat of torture/death, not picking a holiday destination. But that's what it makes it sound like when Merkel makes statements like that

 

[spekkeh]

And now I read Turkey does not allow NATO ships to approach the area and a german minister to land in a few days via helicopter. I mean WTF with this country seriously.

Turkey is the fucking worst. We should just send the ships and redirect all the aid away from Turkey towards Greece.

 

[spekkeh]

This thread is incredible. All those people bitching about Merkel smh

There would be no such thing as a "refugee crisis" if each EU country would take on their responsibility.

Yeah I'm going to call bullshit on this.

All those who suggest Merkel is wrong for "having invited" are basically suggesting the refugees should have just stayed in places like Turkey, Lebanon or even Syria and you should be ashamed of yourself.

Yeah no it's fine. Take all of Syria in. Then Eritrea. Then Sudan. Then Congo. Why not, shame on people who don't want to help people in war zones.

 

[Tak3n]

This thread is incredible. All those people bitching about Merkel smh

There would be no such thing as a "refugee crisis" if each EU country would take on their responsibility. Instead you have a few countries bearing 90% of the burden while many others, including large and wealthy countries such as France and especially the UK do literally nothing but building walls.

All those who suggest Merkel is wrong for "having invited" are basically suggesting the refugees should have just stayed in places like Turkey, Lebanon or even Syria and you should be ashamed of yourself.

I am not arguing with your ideals, but why is it 'their responsibility' to take refugees, there was no binding agreement, just a moral argument, and if you look at Germany and how they are now struggling with all these migrants, no one would blame you to think 'fuck that'

ideals are all good and well, but you have to have a solution rather than just letting them swarm in

 

[linsivvi]

It should be remembered that the Syrian conflict had nothing to do with the US

Factually incorrect on so many levels.

 

[Baron Doggystyle von Woof]

Turkey is the fucking worst. We should just send the ships and redirect all the aid away from Turkey towards Greece.

Yes Turkey sucks for taking care of 2,5 million refugees on actual camps then jungles. Europe is worse by fucking over countries in their own union and acting like the refugees are only here for their monies.

Meanwhile not only did the EU block peace talks for years, but they are also unable to take in a small portion of the refugees.

 

[TanookiTom]

I am not arguing with your ideals, but why is it 'their responsibility' to take refugees, there was no binding agreement, just a moral argument, and if you look at Germany and how they are now struggling with all these migrants, no one would blame you to think 'fuck that'

ideals are all good and well, but you have to have a solution rather than just letting them swarm in

I actually named a solution. If each EU country would take up their share of the responsibility (and it is a responsibility by the way, all those countries signed the according UN charta...) there wouldn't be a "crisis".

And if you consider that Germany took up more than 1 million refugees so far last year I'd say the situation is pretty stable here so far.

Yeah I'm going to call bullshit on this.

Nice argument. Care to elaborate?