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[MidgarBlowedUp]

If they can do this for sports programs why not do it for other programs too? Just turn college into conservatories. Want to get a degree in art? Fine, no math or English for you. Want a culinary degree? Well I dunno you might need math and English for that

 

[davepoobond]

Yeah, "in some fashion" alright. Just speaking from my experience at the high school level, I went to a school that had one of the top football teams in the region, and our administration bent over backwards to appease them, and yet couldn't even bother to shell out for a bus for our academic decathlon to travel across town to compete. Budgeting was always a problem for everything BUT our athletics department.

That athletics departments at many schools are self-serving is a pretty old debate. You seem to be arguing from a perfect-world/trickle-down economics perspective where sports departments aren't largely structured to benefit themselves.

Well, I did mention ways the athletic department helps other than bringing in straight revenue through sporting events.

But you have advertising for new students, building a demand for merchandise, etc. it is one large part of a schools ecosystem

I don't know anything about decathlons. I didnt do any extracurriculars at my school, so I have no idea what they did and didn't put money out for. I believe we had a pretty big sports program in lots of fields, and it was generally a positive thing for the school to have.

besides cutting sports programs when obesity rates are a big problem doesn't exactly gain good will. For every math and science class you want instead of sports, I want an art or music class. But art and music are the first to go and no one seems to care.

 

[Zeus Molecules]

I wanna know why the teacher decided that was an A-. Why not a B+, or an A.

That's the question I had too. Like where did they draw the line and say "nope this fraudulent paper doesn't deserve an A.... I have standards".

 

[Baconsaurus Rex]

Bloody hell even CBOAT is more literate than that

 

[benjipwns]

I wanna know why the teacher decided that was an A-. Why not a B+, or an A.

An A is too obvious. A B+ is basically failing the student and might not be enough to boost the GPA. A- hits that sweet spot where nobody looks into it too hard. And because minuses are made up.

Spoiler

POP POPPPPP

 

[CarpeDeezNutz]

Where's my swanks?!

 

[royalan]

Well, I did mention ways the athletic department helps other than bringing in straight revenue through sporting events.

But you have advertising for new students, building a demand for merchandise, etc. it is one large part of a schools ecosystem

I don't know anything about decathlons. I didnt do any extracurriculars at my school, so I have no idea what they did and didn't put money out for. I believe we had a pretty big sports program in lots of fields, and it was generally a positive thing for the school to have.

besides cutting sports programs when obesity rates are a big problem doesn't exactly gain good will. For every math and science class you want instead of sports, I want an art or music class. But art and music are the first to go and no one seems to care.

That's at the college level. I think we both agree that it's a little too late by the time these athletes get to college. But what about high school? Advertising isn't much of a big deal because students don''t really have a choice in what school they attend, nor do they bring in money via tuition. But the same shit happens there. Potential athletes are rushed through the system. Getting an actual education is devalued to the point that athletes that actually attending classes is seen as a break from athletic training. We do a huge disservice to our athletes in the long run.

Also, arguing that sports programs being more strictly regulated isn't the same as suggesting they be cut. I'm not arguing that sports be cut, and I believe that sports programs are a necessary part of any well-rounded education. I just don't agree with the way high-school/college sports have been industrialized, with student athletes playing the role of the undervalued employee.

 

[PastorOfMuppets]

This is why I've always liked how Canada develops hockey players.

The vast majority of NHL players from North American go through the junior hockey system before making the big show. Similar to collegiate sports in America, a hockey player has a maximum of four years - 16 to 20, to show the NHL what he's got. Since this overlaps with their high school years, many players do correspondence courses and do high school part time to get their diploma. There is a huge separation of sport and academics in Canadian hockey to minimize the conflict of interest.

Where it gets interesting is what happens to players who don't make the big show. The junior hockey leagues in Canada will pay for tuition, books and room and boarding (assuming you choose to live on campus) for every year you played junior hockey. So if at 20, you decided that you weren't good enough to make the NHL, you apply to various colleges, trade schools or universities and get taken care of. You basically start school a little later than the average freshmen but you still get the experience of being the BMOC and banging all those hot groupies.

A buddy of mine went through this system, started school at 20 and is now an engineer at a well known firm.

 

[stilgar]

So some schools are knowingly fabricating idiots. What a shitty time.

 

[NekoFever]

Any Europeans know how footballers (soccer) compare?

There's no real college sport in this country (UK). Talented young players will get spotted when they're in youth leagues at age 7-10 and maybe given a place at a club academy or junior team, with the best ones getting a professional contract at 16 or so once they finish school.

It's an entirely different structure really. There are 92 professional teams in a country smaller than some US states so there's no desire for a local college team to support, and there's no culture of rivalry between universities beyond maybe Oxford vs Cambridge.

 

[GoldenEye 007]

So some schools are knowingly fabricating idiots. What a shitty time.

That's the basic issue here. Then of course the NCAA(which is run by the schools themselves), the conference(which is also run by the schools), and the regional accreditor - SACS in this case, (which exists to ensure the academic integrity of the school) all did basically nothing in response.

 

[Aurongel]

Less rigid classes like independent studies or weird online paper writing courses are always scrutinized for reasons like this. Even at my university there are some independent studies classes that students claim are easy A's given the amount of work required. This story though is on a completely different level, the student probably pulled some strings to get his highschool degree too. This issue manifests itself in more places than just UNC, the craze surrounding student athletes stretches back further than you'd think.

Just look at the story from a few months back of the Ohio highschool athletes who got the minimum sentence for raping a girl at a party.

EDIT: Ohio, not Texas.

 

[Hoo-doo]

I never understood how that weird US scholarship system worked.

"Hey you there, you seem to throw that ball with a significant measure of skill. How about you join us here at university, a bastion of academia and higher learning! Here's your degree!"

I have no problem with offering sports-related incentives to athletes that also happen to be brilliant students, but this?
I wonder how the "normal" students there feel about this, working their asses off for a decent grade only to have Joe McBiceps get an A- for being able to throw a ball. Real fair.

 

[entremet]

The problem is that these big sports schools want to serve two masters--the church of sports and the church of academics, when they can't.

They want high quality players, not knowing that it comes at a price.

This isn't anything new either. Sports and academics should be divorced.

 

[SmokyDave]

Reading that made me profoundly sad. Then I felt like I was being condescending. Then I felt sad again.

 

[patapuf]

I never understood how that weird US scholarship system worked.

"Hey you there, you seem to throw that ball with a significant measure of skill. How about you join us here at university, a bastion of academia and higher learning! Here's your degree!"

I have no problem with offering sports-related incentives to athletes that also happen to be brilliant students, but this?
I wonder how the "normal" students there feel about this, working their asses off for a decent grade only to have Joe McBiceps get an A- for being able to throw a ball. Real fair.

I've always wondered as well. I agree that it's important for a young athlete to have an education to fall back on if the sports career doesn't work out. Having systems in place that allow them to do both is sensible.

But why the pretense that they have to be brilliant students? If you have the schedule of a pro/semi pro athlethe, schoolwork is obviously going to suffer.

 

[thefro]

My roommate in college got tipped off by his older sister as to what all the easy classes were at my college and took a lot of those classes with the football players.

He took a class as a freshman with a bunch of FB players called "Leisure Studies" where all they did was talk about what they did in their spare time. The only classwork was doing a 1-2 page paper as the final.

He started out as an elementary school PE teacher and now is a school principal making pretty decent money, so he's done well for himself.

 

[TomShoe]

Reading that made me profoundly sad. Then I felt like I was being condescending. Then I felt sad again.

It's OK to be condescending to bullshit.

I find it ironic that picking up a sport is actually a better decision for me to get money to go to college than actually studying my ass off with a 3.8 GPA.

I never understood how that weird US scholarship system worked.

"Hey you there, you seem to throw that ball with a significant measure of skill. How about you join us here at university, a bastion of academia and higher learning! Here's your degree!"

I have no problem with offering sports-related incentives to athletes that also happen to be brilliant students, but this?
I wonder how the "normal" students there feel about this, working their asses off for a decent grade only to have Joe McBiceps get an A- for being able to throw a ball. Real fair.

Athletes play for schools, fans spend money on tickets, school gets money, uses money to pay for athletes.

 

[Stet]

I feel bad for the tutor, because she's been wasting her time and she's probably going to get a lot of hate for blowing the whistle on this.

 

[Hoo-doo]

I've always wondered as well. I agree that it's important for a young athlete to have an education to fall back on if the sports career doesn't work out. Having systems in place that allow them to do both is sensible.

But why the pretense that they have to be brilliant students? If you have the schedule of a pro/semi pro athlethe, schoolwork is obviously going to suffer.

I didn't mean that they have to be brilliant. Just be like the "regular" students.
They should receive the exact same education as their non-football playing peers and be graded with the exact same guidelines.

These are institutes of learning.
You want to play hockey on a pro level? Sacrifices have to be made. Maybe the university offers you some extra lectures so you can combine it with your training.
Point is, they should be qualified in whatever they are getting a degree for just as all the regular students are. It should be tough to combine the two if you want to achieve something substantial in both areas.

Having these universities handing out degrees like they are merely a formality is mind-bending. These documents should be worth something.

 

[numble]

I didn't mean that they have to be brilliant. Just be like the "regular" students.
They should receive the exact same education as their non-football playing peers and be graded with the exact same guidelines.

These are institutes of learning.
You want to play hockey on a pro level? Sacrifices have to be made. Maybe the university offers you some extra lectures so you can combine it with your training.
Point is, they should be qualified in whatever they are getting a degree for just as all the regular students are. It should be tough to combine the two if you want to achieve something substantial in both areas.

Having these universities handing out degrees like they are merely a formality is mind-bending. These documents should be worth something.

There are no exact same educations in 20,000 student universities. You think the student doing electrical engineering or organic chemistry feels they have the same education as the arts or humanities students?

 

[Calamari41]

My roommate had a literature class with Dwayne Jarrett at USC back in '04 or '05 or whatever, and apparently he only showed up one time all semester including test days. How is anybody in the world surprised at this? No "name" college athlete at a "name" school does shit.

 

[Nostremitus]

I'm not much of a grammar Nazi, so I think the most troubling part is that it's not ever historically accurate.

 

[Ourobolus]

Gonna need a Lionel Mandrake dramatic reading.

 

[Takamura-San]

They're basically paying semi-pro athletes to play on their teams. Straight up ridiculous.

Who's getting payed?

 

[zeemumu]

 

[crozier]

So what you're telling me is that this athlete is not only passing his classes, but might well be on the Honor Roll? Seems legit.

 

[Hoo-doo]

There are no exact same educations in 20,000 student universities. You think the student doing electrical engineering or organic chemistry feels they have the same education as the arts or humanities students?

Are you purposefully being obtuse? Who would think this. They should receive the same education as their peers.

You know, their fellow organic chemistry, engineering or [insert course here] students.
Every faculty has their own board, guidelines, metrics and their own methods of grading students. Adhere to them.

 

[Lkr]

And I thought Geology 101 aka "Rocks for Jocks" at my uni was bad...

lol my friend who is a music major took rocks for jocks and said it was actually a decent informative class. this was at fsu

 

[teruterubozu]

Who's getting payed?

A-

 

[Calamari41]

Another funny story: Troy Glaus is kind of a once-removed family friend, such that I haven't met the guy but know all the details of his life. Anyway, Stanford makes a huge fuss to the public about how their athletes are all geniuses and how they all get in blindly just like every other student. Well apparently the admissions office told Troy all of this and then ended by telling him to make sure his application was delivered by hand in a special pink envelope. Blind, indeed.

 

[Takamura-San]

A-

Touche.

 

[crozier]

A-

Bahaha

 

[entremet]

A-

Payed is also acceptable actually ;P

 

[numble]

Are you purposefully being obtuse? Who would think this. They should receive the same education as their peers.

You know, their fellow organic chemistry, engineering or [insert course here] students.
Every faculty has their own board, guidelines, metrics and their own methods of grading students. Adhere to them.

They presumably take the same classes required for the major and these are the easy classes that anyone can take to get an Easy A to bring up their overall GPA. They get Ds in other classes and these easy classes bring up their average to a C so they are eligible to play.

Like I said earlier, anyone is eligible to take these easy classes, even my school had easy A classes, but that doesn't mean that the graduate schools will look at them the same as more challenging courses.

 

[Tenks]

He's now on honor roll. I wanted you to hear that from me first.

 

[royalan]

They presumably take the same classes required for the major and these are the easy classes that anyone can take to get an Easy A to bring up their overall GPA. They get Ds in other classes and these easy classes bring up their average to a C so they are eligible to play.

Like I said earlier, anyone is eligible to take these easy classes, even my school had easy A classes, but that doesn't mean that the graduate schools will look at them the same as more challenging courses.

You're missing the point of the thread.

There's "Easy A" courses--which do exist and anyone can take.

And then there's whatever course the athlete featured in the OP took. Frankly, that paper shouldn't have merited more than a D- in any college level course, no matter how easy.

That's the whole point of the whistle-blowing here. Student athletes are being carried through the system, and not only missing out on a valuable education, but valuable life skills those athletes will need should they not go pro. Whoever this poor guy is, it's hard to imagine him not having a hard-time adjusting to life in a productive and self-propelled way if he DOESN'T go pro; he can barely write at an elementary school level. It's a problem when the sports programs in this country are using the schools they're attached to as a means to farm laborers.

And this whole thing just disgusts me, because then people turn around and try to blame the athletes. Claim that they don't merit someone looking out for them because they "made the choice" to focus on sports. What they fail to realize is a lot of young athletes who make prime targets for this type of aggressive recruiting tend to be young PoC from impoverished neighborhoods who aren't raised to see the value in education. The positive messaging of what a quality education can bring them is just not something they're exposed to on a personal level. So the inherent value isn't made obvious to them, and they grow up thinking that they only way to make something of themselves is through sports.

I grew up with so many boys who played sports obsessively not for the love of the game, but because they truly believed that was the only way they'd ever amount to anything. Truly believed there was no future in prioritizing their studies. And instead of having those negative and/or dismissive viewpoints on learning combated by their schools, which is the whole fucking point, these institutions instead reinforce them by breezing them through the system. And why? So they can milk their young bodies for all they're worth. Just get them out onto the damn court.

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

Payed is also acceptable actually ;P

X acceptable
O being accepted

This is what happens when teachers make shit

 

[numble]

You're missing the point of the thread.

There's "Easy A" courses--which do exist and anyone can take.

And then there's whatever course the athlete featured in the OP took. Frankly, that paper shouldn't have merited more than a D- in any college level course, no matter how easy.

That's the whole point of the whistle-blowing here. Student athletes are being carried through the system, and not only missing out on a valuable education, but valuable life skills those athletes will need should they not go pro. Whoever this poor guy is, it's hard to imagine him not having a hard-time adjusting to life in a productive and self-propelled way if he DOESN'T go pro; he can barely write at an elementary school level. It's a problem when the sports programs in this country are using the schools they're attached to as a means to farm laborers.

And this whole thing just disgusts me, because then people turn around and try to blame the athletes. Claim that they don't merit someone looking out for them because they "made the choice" to focus on sports. What they fail to realize is a lot of young athletes who make prime targets for this type of aggressive recruiting tend to be young PoC from impoverished neighborhoods who aren't raised to see the value in education. The positive messaging of what a quality education can bring them is just not something they're exposed to on a personal level. So the inherent value isn't made obvious to them, and they grow up thinking that they only way to make something of themselves is through sports.

I grew up with so many boys who played sports obsessively not for the love of the game, but because they truly believed that was the only way they'd ever amount to anything. Truly believed there was no future in prioritizing their studies. And instead of having those negative and/or dismissive viewpoints on learning combated by their schools, which is the whole fucking point, these institutions instead reinforce them by breezing them through the system. And why? So they can milk their young bodies for all they're worth. Just get them out onto the damn court.

I don't know why you're latching onto my post for totally unrelated issues. They do take the same classes as normal students take that are required for their major, so they aren't judged at different standards for their degrees, as Hoo-Doo seems to believe.

 

[Vashetti]

He should fail the course.

 

[JJDinomite]

The "University" of North Carolina, folks.

 

[Jigorath]

It's okay, they're college athletes. That makes them better people than us.

 

[Kinyou]

I wanna know why the teacher decided that was an A-. Why not a B+, or an A.

I also wonder how the football player decided where to stop. His paragraph ends on quite the cliffhanger.

 

[Opiate]

It's okay, they're college athletes. That makes them better people than us.

I think the only palatable solution is to separate the colleges from the sports, a la minor league baseball.

I'm sure it's extremely frustrating for a good student with limited financial resources to struggle to make payments for his tuition while a mediocre or terrible student gets a full ride simply because he can play a game well. I know I'd be frustrated, and I'm glad I went to a university which never gave out athletic scholarships of any kind.

 

[DocTarHeel]

I wanna know why the teacher decided that was an A-. Why not a B+, or an A.

The paper didn't get an A-. The student got an A- for the entire course. We don't know what this assignment received, if it even received a grade at all. The OP and title need to be updated.

 

[Stet]

"It smells, and I thank God every day I get home that I didn't get exploded."

 

[QuicheFontaine]

There's no real college sport in this country (UK). Talented young players will get spotted when they're in youth leagues at age 7-10 and maybe given a place at a club academy or junior team, with the best ones getting a professional contract at 16 or so once they finish school.

It's an entirely different structure really. There are 92 professional teams in a country smaller than some US states so there's no desire for a local college team to support, and there's no culture of rivalry between universities beyond maybe Oxford vs Cambridge.

We have University Challenge for that!

 

[perfectchaos007]

This thread is missing a couple obligatory images. Let me rectify that.

 

[IceCold]

There's no real college sport in this country (UK). Talented young players will get spotted when they're in youth leagues at age 7-10 and maybe given a place at a club academy or junior team, with the best ones getting a professional contract at 16 or so once they finish school.

It's an entirely different structure really. There are 92 professional teams in a country smaller than some US states so there's no desire for a local college team to support, and there's no culture of rivalry between universities beyond maybe Oxford vs Cambridge.

They sign developmental contracts when they're six or seven and then do schooling and footballing concurrently. Some away from their families.

I know but do they receive a good education?

 

[Hari Seldon]

Honestly this doesn't' bother me. The real victims are the people actually paying for one of these ultra unmarketable humanities degrees. If you have D1 football or basketball on your resume, no matter how stupid you are you will find a job... selling cars, coaching, whatever. But if you are some poor schlub going 80k in debt for a "studies" degree, you are pretty much fucked.