Refusing to allow him to speak prevents him from using the platform to harass people. That's way more beneficial than calling him names
Even if calling him out changed minds, is that worth what that girl had to go through?
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University ignores warnings about Milo, leaving him free to bully trans student
- Thread starter Anarky
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Even if calling him out changed minds, is that worth what that girl had to go through?
As a targeted minority, I at least would be very tempted to commit some act against a right-wing extremist. Can't speak for everyone, of course. Which is honestly almost every Republican out there at this point. Tempted but I wouldn't as I know it would accomplish nothing. I would/want to, however, do all in my power to make the lives of bigots a living hell.
Psychoward
Banned
Oh I know. I'm bi so if I had a free swing at Milo I'd probably take it. I was more just questioning whether or not someone believed physically assaulting Milo would actually be beneficial.
So. We should allow someone who's entire media platform is founded on harassing the shit out of people and sicking his massive amounts of followers on them as well, a university platform to do just that that, singling out a person in the crowd and giving an hour long lecture with pictures why they are disgusting and shouldn't exist, simply because this is a 'discussion'. I don't understand. By this logic, I shouldn't be allowed to kick someone out of my house because they followed me home calling me a bitch and a slut and telling me to kill myself. I should just have to stand there, take it, and occasionally interject that I think their 'ideas' are wrong?
kame-sennin
Member
I don't respect you. I despise you. The fascists will kill us as soon as they get the chance and you are helping them. Open a history book and learn about the way people like you enabled horrible crimes back in the 30's.
People can scream "fair debate", "hear them out", "give everyone a platform" all they want but this was such a degenerated, uncultured speech. Is this hateful, petty drivel something for an academic environement? The same shit mentally delayed fromer highscool-jocks tell to their armies of braindead hicks when they campaign for the GOP?
At one point the niveau will be so low they will let a farting dog hold a speech at an university.
At one point the niveau will be so low they will let a farting dog hold a speech at an university.
excelsiorlef
Member
Trump just got fucking elected even after three debates where Clinton cleaned his clock.
What universe do you live in?
Never actually thought of that angle but you are dead on. Even when supposedly honest real debate doesn't work anyway, those assholes like Milo are just preachers talking to their choirs anyway.
And then the left is accused of being stuck in echo chambers😞
Look at the US election that just happened.
edit: I see excelsiorlef is quicker than me
d00d3n
Member
Jesus, it is getting more and more difficult to pick sides as a libertarian in this post-Trump world. Do you honestly hate a person for standing for the principles of open debate and free exchange of ideas? To the point that you see such a person as a potential war criminal in an existential struggle against fascism?
Well, good for you, but I don't see how you are supposed win upcoming elections with that kind of rhetoric.
DONALD TRUMP AND THE ENTIRE GOP LITERALLY JUST DID IT
Dongs Macabre
aka Daedalos42
If you give bigotry a platform, you're definitely complicit in its propagation.
Milo wasn't invited for a open debate or exchange of ideas, so that seems quite literally 100% irrelevant to this case.
My rights and my humanity are not an "existential struggle". They're real and Republicans want to get rid of them (the few I even have in the first place). They want to shock me straight and cis.
They also openly despise pretty much every other minority in existence and support policies that are very fucking akin to the Nazis. Militarized police states, "registers" of minorities, suppressing minority voters, etc. etc. the Republicans are flat out full stop the greatest threat democracy has ever seen. I'm not going to mince words about a party that is flat out almost nothing but fascists.
Republicans are lower than subhuman garbage. Most of the lot of em'. They enable and support the dismantling of democracy via minority voter suppression and policies that actively harm millions of minorities, women, the environment, the world at large, etc. etc. etc. They're trash. Period. I don't have time to play games.
freethoughtbubble
Member
I just got back from having dinner with my pops and this thread has...taken a turn.
Anyway, I hope the student gets justice for what happened to her: From Milo directly and from the school, assuming there's a strong enough case to be made that they should have known this was likely to happen.
I'm not using qualified language to sneakily subvert my stated position. I don't do twitter, I don't know who milo is, and I don't care to learn more about him because frankly what I do know about him paints him as an idiot sociopath.
I can only believe others when they tell me that the school disregarded his clear MO. If so, I'm for holding it responsible for what happened. At that point, the result would not be the chilling of speech but the deterrence of harassment and discrimination.
And with that I'm out.
Anyway, I hope the student gets justice for what happened to her: From Milo directly and from the school, assuming there's a strong enough case to be made that they should have known this was likely to happen.
I'm not using qualified language to sneakily subvert my stated position. I don't do twitter, I don't know who milo is, and I don't care to learn more about him because frankly what I do know about him paints him as an idiot sociopath.
I can only believe others when they tell me that the school disregarded his clear MO. If so, I'm for holding it responsible for what happened. At that point, the result would not be the chilling of speech but the deterrence of harassment and discrimination.
And with that I'm out.
But Palmer Luckey would lose his only friend.
LoserMakesGood
Member
How did the students not bum rush the stage and chase that fuck out of town. Seriously, most colleges if a comedian goes in too hard a student the crowd turns on them.
I know you've been piled on, but I wanted to address this specific line of thinking. I want to give you the benefit of the doubt of being naive, I've thought the same things before I knew better.
The idea of "valid ideas prevail over shit ideas" in this sort of "marketplace of ideas" is the same faulty thinking that "let the market decide" comes from. It assumes that the "marketplace" is an even playing field and that all ideas are equal and should be treated as equally valid until another idea comes along to "disprove" it like a science. In reality, the playingfield is not level; ideas are not equal in merit, and can, infact, be extremely dangerous in the wrong minds. The trick is that people will sneak in illegitimate ideas for consideration inside a trojan horse of "legitimacy".
This quote from Lee Atwater is the perfect example of obfuscation under the guise of "ideas". People who try to push these trojan horses through do so by making people believe that they just have to "hear them out", how "you should expose yourself to new ideas!". They hide their ideas under layers of other seemingly innocuous ideas, rather than make their ideas an extension of previous ones. All they've done is repackaged their shit in something more palatable so you won't notice. It's "black people are uncontrollable animals" transformed to "it's just something about their culture, you know?" It's "trans people are abominations" morphed into "What a weirdo, amirite? Nobody would fuck her."
People like Milo, and so many of the "alt-right" (basically neo-nazis) hide behind the guise of "discussion", claiming their spreading ideas like "don't coddle students", or "political correctness, ew, say it like it is", which are all legitimate ideas in some form or another that could absolutely use discussion. But rarely are they interested in anything but spreading their toxic ideas trojan'd inside their claims of "discussion".
Now, taking all this into account, I want you to take the time to think about what you've been arguing here, and realize that you've been justifying a man coming onto a stage to harass and abuse an individual. There is certainly a discussion to be had about how Universities should handle giving platforms to controversial figures/ideas. But that is clearly not the case. There are plenty of more legitimate conservative figures out there that can give an idea worthy of discussion and can do so without being a terrible person. This is not one of those cases.
I remember reading an article from a sociologist, I can't remember his name, but he basically talked about how a tactic of the right is to co-opt the tactics of the left and use it in the way they think the left uses it for. For example, when it became less acceptable to be openly racist, all of a sudden "What, I'm a racist? Well, if that's the case, then you're being racist against me!" because the argument. The left's ideal of "people should have equal speech" with its nuance of hate speech, platforms, and bigotry, becomes "well, now you're suppressing my free speech!"
"Black people are apes"
"Trannies just to want to molest people in bathrooms"
Are ideas not worth debating
kame-sennin
Member
If they want a free exchange of ideas with the ideology that killed six million jews and five million gypsies, gays, communists and other marginalized peoples? Absolutely.
If you help fascists get into power, some of the responsibility for what they do is on you.
And the struggle is existential because fascists hate my (black) existence.
Isn't Milo just a professional troll anyways? Why does anyone give him the time of day when its so obvious. I mean I don't doubt he's a Conservative, but his tribal and needlessly vitriolic rhetoric come off as a parody of a caricature, these people who love him don't even realize how badly conned they are, buying into the bullshit of a man who plays off their worst instincts.
EDIT: I mean just read his rational wiki page: http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Milo_Yiannopoulos#His_own_sexuality
And watch his interview with Joe Rogan, he can't keep the performance up in a podcast that lasts hours. Especially when Joe's style encourages people to get on their soapbox as opposed to him engaging in an active conversation.
EDIT: I mean just read his rational wiki page: http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Milo_Yiannopoulos#His_own_sexuality
And watch his interview with Joe Rogan, he can't keep the performance up in a podcast that lasts hours. Especially when Joe's style encourages people to get on their soapbox as opposed to him engaging in an active conversation.
Astral Dog
Member
Fuck him, but fuck more the University that gave him a comfy seat to single out and humilliate one of their students.
I hope this case becomes notorious and they sue them to hell.😡😬
I hope this case becomes notorious and they sue them to hell.😡😬
Psychoward
Banned
You honestly think his rhetoric is the standard of a regular liberal or democrat in the US? Don't give me that "it's hard to pick sides" bs when the poster you quoted is hardly representative of the side in question.
Btw, as a libertarian aren't you open to allowing places to refuse to serve people they don't agree with? Milo not being invited to speak based on his reputation as an asshat certainly seems right up the libertarian alley.
Even as a Straight, Cis, White male this position right here as espoused by Pence and adopted into the actual official republican platform not only invalidates their platform and proves they are garbage people and kills any both sides argument but is also a major reason I despise and condemn Trump voters no matter their supposed reason because even ignoring the at worst agreeing it means at best they have no issue/can overlook what is a literal nazi technique because it does not affect them.
I have no patience or time for those who would treat or at best overlook the inhumane treatment of other humans and have cut any Trump voters or conservatives out of my life including close family.
Free speech means the government cannot prosecute you it does not mean i or others have to give a platform and any institute for higher learning that does should not be considered one because giving milo a platform is buying into both anti intellctualism and selling into the narrative that all speech is valid and bigotry is just an opinion, both dangerous ideas that have led us to the shitpit we are in to begin with.
Jeffolation
Banned
It's a shame a worm like Milo doesn't have to contend with hate speech laws :/
Astral Dog
Member
Here this word again, this thread is making me sad and angry 😠
He is from the UK I think...
LoserMakesGood
Member
Beautiful post. I want to add more but you pretty much nailed it.
So hate speech, bigotry and harassment should be allowed because we have to give the other side "chance to speak" as if their disgusting abhorrent views hold any weight?
We allow these people to speak on terms of fairness when they want to hurt and destroy groups of people for their own biases and want to spread their messages far and wide.
In an ideal world, hate speech would not be given a platform. There should be nothing to debate other than "Stop being such a massive prick, you awful person"
Bigotry and hatred is not just another opinion, it's an extremist view that causes massive amounts of harm. It's not just an ideological difference. It's something that real people have to deal with on a day to day basis
We allow these people to speak on terms of fairness when they want to hurt and destroy groups of people for their own biases and want to spread their messages far and wide.
In an ideal world, hate speech would not be given a platform. There should be nothing to debate other than "Stop being such a massive prick, you awful person"
Bigotry and hatred is not just another opinion, it's an extremist view that causes massive amounts of harm. It's not just an ideological difference. It's something that real people have to deal with on a day to day basis
WiiredShawn
Member
All of this, among other intelligent posts in this thread. Academia isn't about playing nice with everyone's opinions and giving everyone a gold star for having one; it's about figuring out which opinions have rational, emotional, scientific or moral substance, and which ones are trash. A university should already know that Milo's opinions are garbage. Someone in administration either a) doesn't give a shit, 2) didn't bother to look into Milo or 3) would like the attention and money that a "celebrity" like Milo can bring.
In any case, fuck them for failing their students and academic principles.
benjipwns
Banned
There are no requirements for a Supreme Court Justice like other offices. You can (and should) literally appoint a cat.
Palette Swap
Member
It's staggering that people like this are invited anywhere TBH. I mean, there's an opportunity cost to inviting someone, and having Bobo the dog who farts would be a more meaningful endeavor than having this piece of shit.
Speaking of coddling, where did this notion come from that everyone's opinion is equally valid? It's this romanticized notion that all of the complexity of the world is some elaborate mirage and that some loudmouth dumbass just needs to roll up and say some really obvious shit that somehow they thought no one else has ever said to make the world magically simple for them again. The fools who rejected Piaget and think if they repress abstract thinking hard enough the world will regress along with them. That if they spew vile hate all over the place they can corrode away all of the complexities of life that their fragile minds can't handle. People with a different skin color exist? Can't handle it. Gender identity is more complex than a two word dichotomy? Can't handle it. We need to stop coddling those people, and yet instead all I hear is how abuse sufferers need to be tougher. How about these dumbasses learn some self consciousness instead?
For all the whining about a culture of participation awards, those same people never push back against our growing culture of acting like the intuition of random loud people with regards to deeply complicated issues is worth anything at all besides the a bullet point in a case study of their mental health and possibly a data point in a study on the effectiveness of current education paradigms.
Let me be precise here: it is important to talk to average people, to listen to their experiences. Everyone has their own unique skills and experiences, even if they are misapplied or unrealized. But the key is to remember that this wonderful humanistic outlook speaks towards a person's potential.
For instance, I have nothing to offer towards the topic of meteorology. I know only the most basic of information from my general education, and all I could provide is a tepid endorsement of current research consensus as "yeah, this makes sense to me" - maybe I could vaguely try to connect towards the evaluation of psychological studies, but it's not like me saying "sample size is important!" is worth much - or just uninformed sesquipedalian babbling using terms I recall out of context to try and look smart. Why would any university, or really anyone for that matter, want me to give a speech about meteorology?
But at least I have the self awareness to know I have nothing worthwhile to add. These hateful dumbasses have tremendous confidence in themselves and will scream their shit at the top of their lungs authoritatively. They avoid debate by castigating it as a liberal conspiracy and instead prefer to shout derisively from their own little safe spaces for hateful troglodytes.
Don't get me wrong, there is value in listening to people who can't articulate a cohesive argument. The debate experience can be a learning one for both parties - the one with facts and evidence has a chance to further sharpen rhetorical skills and the one who doesn't can learn from their mistakes. But it has to be a playing field without handicaps - we need to stop elevating people who can barely formulate a paragraph to give the illusion of two even sides through allowing them to throw tantrums about liberal media when they look bad and congratulating them when they point out something obvious with a million counterargument ready to shred them given the chance. The children should not get a high chair at a debate.
Basically, life is complicated and difficult, and these days it feels like so many people think their first thoughts are the key to upending the entire world. They forget that if it was that easy, someone else has statistically thought that before. It takes work, and for people like Milo the only work they are willing to engage in is harassment.
For all the whining about a culture of participation awards, those same people never push back against our growing culture of acting like the intuition of random loud people with regards to deeply complicated issues is worth anything at all besides the a bullet point in a case study of their mental health and possibly a data point in a study on the effectiveness of current education paradigms.
Let me be precise here: it is important to talk to average people, to listen to their experiences. Everyone has their own unique skills and experiences, even if they are misapplied or unrealized. But the key is to remember that this wonderful humanistic outlook speaks towards a person's potential.
For instance, I have nothing to offer towards the topic of meteorology. I know only the most basic of information from my general education, and all I could provide is a tepid endorsement of current research consensus as "yeah, this makes sense to me" - maybe I could vaguely try to connect towards the evaluation of psychological studies, but it's not like me saying "sample size is important!" is worth much - or just uninformed sesquipedalian babbling using terms I recall out of context to try and look smart. Why would any university, or really anyone for that matter, want me to give a speech about meteorology?
But at least I have the self awareness to know I have nothing worthwhile to add. These hateful dumbasses have tremendous confidence in themselves and will scream their shit at the top of their lungs authoritatively. They avoid debate by castigating it as a liberal conspiracy and instead prefer to shout derisively from their own little safe spaces for hateful troglodytes.
Don't get me wrong, there is value in listening to people who can't articulate a cohesive argument. The debate experience can be a learning one for both parties - the one with facts and evidence has a chance to further sharpen rhetorical skills and the one who doesn't can learn from their mistakes. But it has to be a playing field without handicaps - we need to stop elevating people who can barely formulate a paragraph to give the illusion of two even sides through allowing them to throw tantrums about liberal media when they look bad and congratulating them when they point out something obvious with a million counterargument ready to shred them given the chance. The children should not get a high chair at a debate.
Basically, life is complicated and difficult, and these days it feels like so many people think their first thoughts are the key to upending the entire world. They forget that if it was that easy, someone else has statistically thought that before. It takes work, and for people like Milo the only work they are willing to engage in is harassment.
People are hypocrites, watch their tune change when they are the minority in other places.
GrizzleBoy
Banned
No but, we need to let hate have the same kind of opportunities we give to love.
Why. not let the two debate each other, you know, so we can see if hate or love is better?
I mean, what does it say about us if we don't ALSO give a platform to those who want to turn us against each other, instead of those who want to bring us together?
You know, because the American population is so smart and interested in actual policies, truth and such, that they'll OBVIOUSLY take the side of the people not spreading hate.
Oh wait.
PRESIDENT.
ELECT.
DONALD.
TRUMP.
Maybe if we give more hateful people mooooooore platforms to spread it, maybe we will get more love?
Okay.
Monocle
Member
Yeah, the student should attempt to sue. This is absolutely unacceptable.
Great post.
Modest Mauser
Member
I have a coworker who is a big Milo fan and brings him up and shares things he says during his tours all the time.
I have no idea how to respond so I don't.
I have no idea how to respond so I don't.
benjipwns
Banned
He was invited by this group: http://tpusa.com/
So that student group invited an openly hateful, deeply prejudiced former twitter celebrity to their university because they find some value in his hateful rhetoric I guess. I imagine that says a lot about the people in that student group.
Miles Quaritch
Member
Why don't you let the free exchange of ideas and open debate decide tho...
A Link to the Past
Banned
The defense of Milo's right to speak, I swear in MCU they'd be like
"I don't really support this 'no platform' approach with Killgrave"
"I don't really support this 'no platform' approach with Killgrave"
It's good to see making sure people like Milo have a place to peddle their bullshit is more important than reinforcing that trans people are human. And you people wonder how assholes like Trump won.
There's only one thing we should give to fuckers like Milo and it sure as hell isn't a platform.
Calling him out on his bullshit would be a good first step.
There's only one thing we should give to fuckers like Milo and it sure as hell isn't a platform.
Calling him out on his bullshit would be a good first step.
Palette Swap
Member
Did they copy/paste that black dude's face to have him in two places?Well I found the funniest picture I've seen today.
Take a close look:
Problem is these halfwits who don't know what an actual supervillain looks like in real life. He's not dragging people to death from a pickup truck so they think he's not so bad.
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