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Up: 94 year old former SS-Guard convicted for Auschwitz

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C

Chariot

Member
Update:

Aus Sicht der Nebenkläger aus Chicago, Las Vegas, New York und Israel hat das Landgericht die Taten Grönings im Vernichtungslager Auschwitz nicht korrekt bewertet. "Nach unserer Rechtsauffassung hätte eine Verurteilung wegen Mords und nicht nur wegen Beihilfe erfolgen müssen", sagte der Rechtsanwalt der Angehörigen. Diese sind mit dem Urteil nicht zufrieden.
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From the perspective of the co-plaintiffs from Chicago, Las Vegas, New York and Israel the Landgericht didn't judge Gröning's actions in the extermination camp Auschwitz correctly. "From our legal interpretation the conviction should've been on account of murder and not just of accessory", said the lawyer of the families. They are not satisfied with the conviction.
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http://www.spiegel.de/panorama/just...revision-gegen-groening-urteil-a-1044119.html

Update:

hobblygobbly said:
Auschwitz guard Oskar Groening, 94, found guilty of facilitating mass murder and sentenced to four years in prison.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-33533264

Not unexpected, he confessed before that he was morally guilty and that he was an accomplice of the holocaust and there is no denial (he also speaks out against holocaust deniers themselves), this case was to find him legally guilty.
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UuneEe3.jpg


Oskar Gröning is now a frail looking, 94 years old man, but 70 years ago he guarded one of the greatest travesties in the last century: the KZ Ausschwitz. He is on trial now for 300,000 accessories of murder, on the witness banks dozens of victims, even some of Mengeles personal victims.

This trial is running since april and is bigger than Mr. Gröning himself. Since his crimes are 70 years ago and he actively spoke out against holocaust deniers his sentence looks like three years of jail, but the lawyers representing the accusation feel uncomfortable in letting a man who helped the Holocaust knowingly go with only three years of jail time.

German: http://m.spiegel.de/panorama/justiz/a-1042714.html
An older article in english with all basic information: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...Nazi-medical-experiments-demands-answers.html

What do you think?
 
D

dork

Banned
Obviously what he did was unforgivable. But do they really want to waste money on a trial and all that...Just wait another week he will probably croak anyway. Is it really going to give any sense of justice to put a 94 year old man in jail?
 
D

Deified Data

Banned
Good that he's facing justice, but I think in the case of the very old and frail, with so much time between the crime and the present day, the prosecution should really take a look at how much of a danger he still poses (likely none) and whether he expresses genuine regret before they reach their decision. Not that I think any of that should preclude jail time, mind...just that such a sentence wouldn't really serve anyone, outside of satisfying the public's need for vengeance. Which isn't an entirely unworthy goal...
 
ebullientprism

ebullientprism

Member
Chariot said:
http://i.imgur.com/UuneEe3.jpg

Oskar Gröning is now a frail looking, 94 years old man, but 70 years ago he guarded one of the greatest travesties in the last century: the KZ Ausschwitz. He is on trial now for 300,000 accessories of murder, on the witness banks dozens of victims, even some of Mengeles personal victims.

This trial is running since april and is bigger than Mr. Gröning himself. Since his crimes are 70 years ago and he actively spoke out against holocaust deniers his sentence looks like three years of jail, but the lawyers representing the accusation feel uncomfortable in letting a man who helped the Holocaust knowingly go with only three years of jail time.

German: http://m.spiegel.de/panorama/justiz/a-1042714.html
An older article in english with all basic information: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...Nazi-medical-experiments-demands-answers.html

What do you think?
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He is 94. How much time do they even want him to do? Maybe they can incarcerate his corpse.

Not gonna be a popular opinion now but it seems kinda pointless here.
 
M

Mrmartel

Banned
10 more years and there can't be anymore trials like this? I mean anyone with any involvement would be dead by then
 
H

Hycran

Banned
Part of the reason why you throw someone in jail is because there is a public interest in justice being done. No justice can ever heal the wounds of what happened and no incarceration of a 94 year old man can ever truly be in the public interest.

he may be a monster, but if you really want to do justice to him, imagine him suffering for eternity in your denominational version of the unpleasant afterlife
 
F

foxtrot3d

Banned
Hycran said:
Part of the reason why you throw someone in jail is because there is a public interest in justice being done. No justice can ever heal the wounds of what happened and no incarceration of a 94 year old man can ever truly be in the public interest.

he may be a monster, but if you really want to do justice to him, imagine him suffering for eternity in your denominational version of the unpleasant afterlife
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The key word there is part, the other part is punishment. He deserves to rot in jail until he croaks no matter how long or short of a time that may be.
 
benjipwns

benjipwns

Banned
The trial was moved to a larger venue after the local courtroom was deemed to small. It was adjourned at noon on Wednesday to clear the Ritterakademie venue for a play entitled Guter Sex ist Teuer (Good Sex is Expensive).
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heh
 
S

Snaku

Banned
It appeared to be a rhetorical question as Groening is not known to have participated in the medical experiments but was instead responsible for inspecting the luggage of arriving prisoners and sending any money found to Berlin to fund the Nazi war effort.
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Um, three years for this? I realize he probably did terrible things as an SS officer, more than likely under orders, but it's not like he was running the gas chambers. He was a clerk. I know these victims want some justice, and I can't blame them, this is probably their last chance for that.
 
F

Forerunner

Member
I find this to be somewhat pointless. He’s 94, if he’s lucky he maybe has another ten years to live. Everyone should face justice, but this is too late. Personally, I think it’s a waste of resources and time that could be better spent in other areas of the criminal justice system.
 
C

ClosingADoor

Member
I doubt he will actually be locked up. But having a trial is good. Some victims are still alive and they deserve to have the men that brought so many horrors on their lives sentenced for it.
 
R

Rektash

Member
There is a zero percent chance he will actually see a prison from inside. This case is about serving justice in the sense that he finally, after all
these years, has to stand trial for what he did. The point is that he is held accountable.
 
W

Wanderer5

Member
Is this really necessary, effort and money wise? Well I guess in a way yes, but he 94 years old and also turned around his life really. Hell sounds he went public of his involvement to go against Holocaust deniers. Jail time doesn't seem needed really.
 
F

foxtrot3d

Banned
Forerunner said:
I find this to be somewhat pointless. He’s 94, if he’s lucky he maybe has another ten years to live. Everyone should face justice, but this is too late. Personally, I think it’s a waste of resources and time that could be better spent in other areas of the criminal justice system.
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This is such a weak argument. The justice system isn't some delicate machine that requires all resources to be placed into only those elements that provide a utilitarian benefit. What other aspects of the justice system are being denied their due time by prosecuting this one Nazi?
 
I

ImpalingNarwhal

Member
That picture is pretty heartbreaking. What he may or may not have done was certainly atrocious, but it would be hard to convict a 94 year old. I don't envy anyone in this trial.
 
V

Veritigo_X

Member
I don't care if he's 94. He willfully participated in the deaths of thousands of innocent people and has done nothing to atone for it. It's unfortunate that he got to enjoy such a long life while he watched so many get their lives cut short for no reason.

I don't get why he wasn't on trial earlier, but better late than never.
 
C

Chariot

Member
Qurupeke said:
I don't understand. Why now? He should have had a life sentence ages ago.
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They started a trial in the 70s but then somehow forgot about him. He was even witness in some other trial where he straight up said that he was there and saw the mass murder. Not in a bad sense he was actively trying to let holocaust deniers know about the crimes and that the holocaust was indeed real.

Snaku said:
Um, three years for this? I realize he probably did terrible things as an SS officer, more than likely under orders, but it's not like he was running the gas chambers. He was a clerk. I know these victims want some justice, and I can't blame them, this is probably their last chance for that.
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Well, the point is that he was willingly serving the system, despite knowing what happened there.
 
Z

Zaptruder

Banned
Real evil is mundane.

It's ignorance.

The ignorance Oskar expressed in simply doing his job to one of the 20th centuries greatest atrocities.

And now we perpetuate the cycle of ignorance by directing our ire at a human symbol of those atrocities, so far removed from time that the symbol is a man nearly a hundred years old that has been through a life time of thinking and reflection on the evils he participated in.

How about we do some real justice and simply reflect on how and why we cause harm and continue to do so, and figure how and what we can do to lessen the degree of harm we cause.

By you know... not jailing an old man that was simply part of a system of ignorance in his youth a long time ago - and rather understand how we are all parts of systems of ignorance that perpetuates further harm.
 
Pyrrhus

Pyrrhus

Member
What has his philosophy and behavior been in the 70 years since Auschwitz? Has he publicly repudiated his actions? Done anything to try to atone?
 
O

Omegasquash

Member
Knowing what was going on and willfully working at Auschwitz? I'm of the opinion that he should spend the rest of his life in prison.
 
benjipwns

benjipwns

Banned
Pyrrhus said:
What has his philosophy and behavior been in the 70 years since Auschwitz? Has he publicly repudiated his actions? Done anything to try to atone?
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He got found out because he got in an argument with a Holocaust denier if I'm reading things correctly. Basically pulled the "I WAS THERE" card to win the debate.
 
cyberheater

cyberheater

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What is the point of trying a 94 year old man.
 
L

Log4Girlz

Member
Toxi said:
What's the arbitrary age cutoff we shouldn't prosecute people at?
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Incarceration is about rehabilitation. If the guilty genuinely rehabilitated themselves, if there is no evidence of any crimes committed for extended periods of time. .. what's the point of prosecution? Retaliation. Justice should not be about retaliation.


That's one argument at least, I actually don't agree.
 
Moff

Moff

Member
well he was an SS guard so I understand anyone who suspects he was a criminial. but I just can't be fine with a justice system that says "you were there you must have done something" witthout any proof whatsoever. at least that seems to be the basis for this trial according to the german article and it's also the reason why he his first trial in the 80s was discontinued.
 
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