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[Rektash]

What is the point of trying a 94 year old man.

Vengeance mostly.

 

[bengraven]

Three years might be a life sentence.

Minutes, ben. Minutes.

 

[foxtrot3d]

Real evil is mundane.

It's ignorance.

By you know... not jailing an old man that was simply part of a system of ignorance in his youth a long time ago - and rather understand how we are all parts of systems of ignorance that perpetuates further harm.

I'll have to remember the "ignorant youth" defense the next time I participate in mass genocide.

 

[Chariot]

What has his philosophy and behavior been in the 70 years since Auschwitz? Has he publicly repudiated his actions? Done anything to try to atone?

He was living a rather normal life, being witness in trials about the holocaust and speaking up against holocaust deniers.

kill it with fire

Context, man...

well he was an SS guard so I understand anyone who suspects he was a criminial. but I just can't be fine with a justice system that says "you were there you must have done something" witthout any proof whatsoever. at least that seems to be the basis for this trial according to the german article and it's also the reason why he his first trial in the 80s was discontinued.

He wasn't some random guard in Berlin or at the frontline. He was at Auschwitz. Pretty difficult to not know anything about the genocide while working there.

 

[Trey]

Good that he's facing justice, but I think in the case of the very old and frail, with so much time between the crime and the present day, the prosecution should really take a look at how much of a danger he still poses (likely none) and whether he expresses genuine regret before they reach their decision. Not that I think any of that should preclude jail time, mind...just that such a sentence wouldn't really serve anyone, outside of satisfying the public's need for vengeance. Which isn't an entirely unworthy goal...

A trial like this only serves to be a public rebuke of an atrocity which occurred a fair few decades ago. It was never about fair and rational judgment it the interest of rehabilitation, might as well drop the hammer on the old man.

 

[Zornack]

It's strange how we're programmed to see the old as innocent, like babies. This man was actively involved in the slaughter of my family and people. If he were 40, 50 or 60 I'd see evil, but since he's old and frail I see confused innocence.

 

[Coffee Dog]

The key word there is part, the other part is punishment. He deserves to rot in jail until he croaks no matter how long or short of a time that may be.

What is the benefit of this?

 

[scott!]

Incarceration is about rehabilitation. If the guilty genuinely rehabilitated themselves, if there is no evidence of any crimes committed for naively extended periods of time. .. what's the point of prosecution? Retaliation. Justice should not be about retaliation.


That's one argument at least, I actually don't agree.

A bit disappointing that you don't agree when you expressed it fairly eloquently!

 

[Ban Puncher]

kill it with fire

Gott im Himmel...

 

[Zaraki_Kenpachi]

It's strange how we're programmed to see the old as innocent, like babies. This man was actively involved in the slaughter of my family and people. If he were 40, 50 or 60 I'd see evil, but since he's old and frail I see confused innocence.

What do you and others consider "actively involved"?

 

[massoluk]

Feeling conflicted about this. I don't know what's the right action.
These are some bs choices in a Witcher game.

 

[ManUnkindH]

It's strange how we're programmed to see the old as innocent, like babies..

Never understood this and I'm completely against it.

 

[Frankfurter]

I don't have anything against the trial itself, but due to human rights etc. he's probably not going to go to jail, or atleast not long due to his age (i.e. not being "fit" for prison).

 

[legend166]

Good. Just like the US authorities shouldn't stop trying to prosecute Roman Polanski, this man should be prosecuted for his crimes.

He was involved in a mass murder on an unimaginable scale. And since basically every piece of history tells us there were no recriminations against those who decided not to participate in the holocaust and other German war crimes, he has no excuse.

Sure, he's not Hitler, but it's because of this man and the multitude like him who happily went along with Hitler's regime that the Holocaust was able to be undertaken.

 

[mclem]

Not in a bad sense he was actively trying to let holocaust deniers know about the crimes and that the holocaust was indeed real.

I find this bit fascinating.

Without knowing more I'm not quite sure how I feel about the trial. He doesn't seem to be particularly trying to cover it up - and does, these days, seem to want to shine a light on it - but there's a trial going on, so I assume he's not pleaded guilty.

He was involved in a mass murder on an unimaginable scale. And since basically every piece of history tells us there were no recriminations against those who decided not to participate in the holocaust and other German war crimes, he has no excuse.

Out of interest, whether or not there were recriminations, was there a real fear of recriminations?

 

[Hesemonni]

kill it with fire

I feel horrible.

But yeah, wartime is a funny thing, when you have very little say to what you do. I'd suspect the military justice of Nazi regime was quite swift at that time.

 

[Methos#1975]

I would like to know his rank then, if he was simply some lowly Private being forced to followed orders his crimes should be looked at very differently.

 

[Rabbi_Vole]

Just take away the guys Metamucil for a few weeks.

 

[TheLegendOfMart]

He was part of a horrible crime and deserves to die in prison. His age shouldn't change that.

His victims literally clawed at the walls desperately trying to cling to their lives.

I almost said why not just put him on house arrest or something and almost questioned why they are wasting money on a trial till I saw that picture again.

I can't even put into words how I feel about that picture, all the people that were denied a life and this old cunt lives till 94 years old.

Throw him in jail and let him rot away the last years of his life.

 

[Zoned]

It's strange how we're programmed to see the old as innocent, like babies. This man was actively involved in the slaughter of my family and people. If he were 40, 50 or 60 I'd see evil, but since he's old and frail I see confused innocence.

The point is that there is really no benefit of putting an 80 or 90 year old man behind bars. Waste of money and doesn't serve any purpose apart from boiling vengeance inside.

 

[Veritigo_X]

I would like to know his rank then, if he was simply some lowly Private being forced to followed orders his crimes should be looked at very differently.

Nazis "just following orders" is an acceptable excuse in 2015? Okay...

 

[Auto-Reply]

The age shouldn't matter. But the court should evaluate if this 94 year old man is the same person as the 24 year old that served under the regime.

 

[Moff]

He wasn't some random guard in Berlin or at the frontline. He was at Auschwitz. Pretty difficult to not know anything about the genocide while working there.

oh he did know. he admits that. he even spoke out against holocaust deniers.
but knowing about it is not a prosecutable crime as far as I know and not the crime he stands on trial for.

 

[legend166]

I would like to know his rank then, if he was simply some lowly Private being forced to followed orders his crimes should be looked at very differently.

As I said, this isn't really an excuse. German soldiers could ask to be removed from killing squads with basically no repercussions to themselves. Mainly because there were so many others willing to step in.

 

[metalslimer]

I don't think that the old should get off easy but this is just a waste of money honestly that could go so many other better places

 

[Snaku]

I would like to know his rank then, if he was simply some lowly Private being forced to followed orders his crimes should be looked at very differently.

It appeared to be a rhetorical question as Groening is not known to have participated in the medical experiments but was instead responsible for inspecting the luggage of arriving prisoners and sending any money found to Berlin to fund the Nazi war effort.

.

 

[DarkFlow]

RevengeGAF always comes out of the wood work for these threads.

 

[Toxi]

The point is that there is really no benefit of putting an 80 or 90 year old man behind bars. Waste of money and doesn't serve any purpose apart from boiling vengeance inside.

It serves the purpose of a fair legal system that doesn't grant exceptions to a demographic.

 

[E92 M3]

I feel a trial will be good to get his sins publicly recorded, but at this point, jail time is useless.

 

[Chariot]

I find this bit fascinating.

Without knowing more I'm not quite sure how I feel about the trial. He doesn't seem to be particularly trying to cover it up - and does, these days, seem to want to shine a light on it - but there's a trial going on, so I assume he's not pleaded guilty.

He plead partly guilty and asked the victims at the trial for their forgiveness. The trial is mainly going so long because there is so much evidence to look at.

I would like to know his rank then, if he was simply some lowly Private being forced to followed orders his crimes should be looked at very differently.

SS-Unterscharführer, lowest officier rank.

 

[Omegasquash]

The point is that there is really no benefit of putting an 80 or 90 year old man behind bars. Waste of money and doesn't serve any purpose apart from boiling vengeance inside.

I would argue that survivors of the holocaust should get a say on whether or not it's a waste of money.

 

[Jarate]

Nazis "just following orders" is an acceptable excuse in 2015? Okay...

remember, only 30~% of germans voted Hitler into power, and you were kind of fucked if you were a German Nationalist who didnt support these things

It's not an excuse in the case of extremely vile acts, but if the dude just worked at Auschwitz as a bag checker as he claims, then really, he's easily just a soldier in the wrong place at the wrong time.

 

[PeskyToaster]

If only denazification efforts could have gone after everyone involved but then Germany would have been gutted when we needed an ally in the Cold War. The top dogs were taken down but the middle men were allowed to escape.

 

[DarkFlow]

remember, only 30~% of germans voted Hitler into power, and you were kind of fucked if you were a German Nationalist who didnt support these things

It's not an excuse in the case of extremely vile acts, but if the dude just worked at Auschwitz as a bag checker as he claims, then really, he's easily just a soldier in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Well you had to do some shit to get into the SS. One was prove how Aryan you were with record of your purity going back 100 years.

 

[Rektash]

It serves the purpose of a fair legal system that doesn't grant exceptions to a demographic.

So you want kids and babies to be prosecuted as well D: ?

My point is, there are plenty exceptions in every justice system and for good reasons.

 

[outunderthestars]

I almost said why not just put him on house arrest or something and almost questioned why they are wasting money on a trial till I saw that picture again.

I can't even put into words how I feel about that picture, all the people that were denied a life and this old cunt lives till 94 years old.

Throw him in jail and let him rot away the last years of his life.

That was one of the least horrific photos that I could find. I think people in this thread should spend a few moments looking through images of the horrible crimes committed at the camp before arguing for leniency just because he is an old man.

 

[foxtrot3d]

What is the benefit of this?

Oh boy here we go, the judicial system and JUSTICE isn't a utilitarian system, unless you're some die-hard Benthamite. We don't base our justice system solely on weighing the possible benefits to society and choosing the approach that solely maximizes those benefits. For example, if a famously skilled doctor kills his wife we don't give him a lesser sentence or let him off the hook because the benefits to society would be better utilized if such a skilled doctor was not jailed.

Prison primarily serves as punishment which among many other things serves to deter other criminals as well as to remove dangerous individuals from the general population. Rehabilitation is a secondary goal of prison, not its primary purpose.

 

[clemenx]

Meh. I don't agree with pursuing these old dudes. Mostly because I see it as wasting resources, not because I feel any empathy with him. It'd be better for everyone if he just dies already.

Concede that he won in escaping justice. Make it a reminder that our justice system is not infallible.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

Well you had to do some shit to get into the SS. One was prove how Aryan you were with record of your purity going back 100 years.

That's not actually very hard in 1945; immigration was vastly smaller compared to the modern understanding and most European countries were much more homogenous. Your 'purity record' basically just checked you didn't have any obviously Jewish or Polish relatives and it wasn't very thorough, either.

 

[Veritigo_X]

remember, only 30~% of germans voted Hitler into power, and you were kind of fucked if you were a German Nationalist who didnt support these things

It's not an excuse in the case of extremely vile acts, but if the dude just worked at Auschwitz as a bag checker as he claims, then really, he's easily just a soldier in the wrong place at the wrong time.

He was SS working at Auschwitz, he wasn't just some soldier fighting the war. He was participating in the deaths of thousands. He knew what was happening there and kept going along with it.

 

[SArcher]

So how are these things judged? Like, did he join the SS going "I want to torture and kill Jewish people " or was he simply a guard doing what he was told? I, of course, realize that it is hard to make these distinctions and considering the nazis were responsible for 6 million deaths (insanely horrific) it is understandable why everyone connected tot the nazis is seen as a criminal and sentenced as such.

 

[Fuchsdh]

From the Telegraph article:

It appeared to be a rhetorical question as Groening is not known to have participated in the medical experiments but was instead responsible for inspecting the luggage of arriving prisoners and sending any money found to Berlin to fund the Nazi war effort.
That job led the German media to dub him the “Bookkeeper of Auschwitz.”

Seriously... why are they bringing in Mengele's twins? Everyone knows that whatever his crimes, they weren't that guy's. So why are these people giving emotional 45 minute speeches on the stand? They're looking for closure that this guy can't give, alive or dead.

Oh boy here we go, the judicial system and JUSTICE isn't a utilitarian system, unless you're some die-hard Benthamite. We don't base our justice system solely on weighing the possible benefits to society and choosing the approach that solely maximizes those benefits. For example, if a famously skilled doctor kills his wife we don't give him a lesser sentence or let him off the hook because the benefits to society would be better utilized if such a skilled doctor was not jailed.

Prison primarily serves as punishment which among many other things serves to deter other criminals as well as to remove dangerous individuals from the general population. Rehabilitation is a secondary goal of prison, not its primary purpose.

I'm not sure how much relevance this has to this case, really, but the idea of prison being punitive first and foremost has certainly seen lots of challenges, especially from a utilitarian standpoint—the ultimate goal is to have less crime, so incarcerating individuals and then essentially encouraging recidivism to incarcerate them again is a waste of social capital as well as money. Ideally every one who is capable of rehabilitation would receive the help they needed in prison and the people left would be the people you truly felt was necessary to isolate from society.

As for this guy, eh. If he's personally culpable, then he essentially "won" anyhow by living to this age without punishment. I don't think it really matters much either way. I guess throwing him in prison offers more closure to people? He's not long for this world one way or another.

 

[DarkFlow]

Oh boy here we go, the judicial system and JUSTICE isn't a utilitarian system, unless you're some die-hard Benthamite. We don't base our justice system solely on weighing the possible benefits to society and choosing the approach that solely maximizes those benefits. For example, if a famously skilled doctor kills his wife we don't give him a lesser sentence or let him off the hook because the benefits to society would be better utilized if such a skilled doctor was not jailed.

Prison primarily serves as punishment which among many other things serves to deter other criminals as well as to remove dangerous individuals from the general population. Rehabilitation is a secondary goal of prison, not its primary purpose.

Really, because Operation Paperclip says otherwise.

 

[lawnchair]

He could've stopped the genocide but he did nothing! death to the old man!

 

[foxtrot3d]

That's not actually very hard in 1945; immigration was vastly smaller compared to the modern understanding and most European countries were much more homogenous. Your 'purity record' basically just checked you didn't have any obviously Jewish or Polish relatives and it wasn't very thorough, either.

I think the poster should have emphasized "some shit" when referring how a person got into the SS. It wasn't some after school special, you had to be really committed to join the SS and there were plenty of rituals involved. I suggest watching any documentary on the subject to see the full details. Short story, shit was fucked up. The SS were the true believers.

Really, because Operation Paperclip says otherwise.

I fail to see how a late 1940's-1950's secret US program negates any of what I just said. All that means is that those policy makers were equally morally bankrupt and wrong. We're also talking about the same time that Black people weren't allowed to sit with Whites in a diner so such an Operation is hardly the worst thing going on in the US at the time.

 

[Ganzlinger]

Good that he's facing justice, but I think in the case of the very old and frail, with so much time between the crime and the present day, the prosecution should really take a look at how much of a danger he still poses (likely none) and whether he expresses genuine regret before they reach their decision. Not that I think any of that should preclude jail time, mind...just that such a sentence wouldn't really serve anyone, outside of satisfying the public's need for vengeance. Which isn't an entirely unworthy goal...

Yep.

He seems to be just a clerk back then. Condemn the man for the public records but let him serve his time at home.

 

[Hex]

you want a Nazi to rest in peace?

He is not a nazi anymore.
It is not like he has the nazi flag next to his oxygen tank and trains new SS in his spare time instead of feeding the birds.
There is a time to let go.

Edit: I love how hypocritical so many on here are.
If it was someone getting the death penalty for something you would have pages and pages of outrage.

 

[Jarate]

Well you had to do some shit to get into the SS. One was prove how Aryan you were with record of your purity going back 100 years.

I have no clue what his thought processes were as a 20 year old, he couldve very easily been a supporter of the whole "aryan" business, or he could have been a German Nationalist looking to Adolph Hitler as an escape for the horrid reparations that Europe placed upon Germany after WW1.

And he's not on trial for being a racist, or believing in something as a young adult, he's on trial for working at Auschwitz, which we honestly have no clue how that situation worked or how involved he was in the operations beyond what was reported in this article

Age shouldn't exonerate you from the crimes you may have committed, especially since you were at the forefront of genocide, but at the same time, we also can't hold every single person accountable, especially if a low ranking officer might have been assigned to go there to check bags and send money back to Germany.

 

[SArcher]

He could've stopped the genocide but he did nothing! death to the old man!

How?

 

[Deleted member 231381]

I think the poster should have emphasized "some shit" when referring how a person got into the SS. It wasn't some after school special, you had to be really committed to join the SS and there were plenty of rituals involved. I suggest watching any documentary on the subject to see the full details. Short story, shit was fucked up. The SS were the true believers.

Oh, definitely, I was just pointing out that wasn't the most extreme example of "some shit".