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Update on the search for the Higgs boson at CERN
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SMASH THE SUNS TOGETHER!!
Insane Metal
Member
That smile he gave at the end was so heart warming. I don't think I've seen him smile much recently, but it was definitely very sweet to see.
maniac-kun
Member
Insane Metal
Member
Indeed. His smile was pretty nice 
Also, is that computer a real time thing? How is it capable of such thing? o.o
Also, is that computer a real time thing? How is it capable of such thing? o.o
maniac-kun
Member
Indeed. His smile was pretty nice
Also, is that computer a real time thing? How is it capable of such thing? o.o
It takes him several minutes or hours to enter the text. They cut that part out.
Synth_floyd
Banned
They found the Higgs?
I'm always depressed by how short these sorts of threads are on GAF (although I hardly think GAF is an outlier there; just the norm).
I just don't think most people think long term enough. These are the sorts of things which move the race forward; putting aside the obviously meaningless pap like blockbuster movies and games and pop music and soap operas which dominate much of our time, even purportedly important things like modern political machinations pale in comparison to these sorts of discoveries and confirmations in the long term.
Long term thinking -- particularly when "long term" may mean a term that far exceeds our own lifespan -- is not something humans are particularly good at.
To a sigma 5 (99.9999%) level of certainty, they have found a particle which walks, talks, acts, and weighs the same as the Higgs Boson. That's the scientific answer; the laymen's summary would be "yes."
I just don't think most people think long term enough. These are the sorts of things which move the race forward; putting aside the obviously meaningless pap like blockbuster movies and games and pop music and soap operas which dominate much of our time, even purportedly important things like modern political machinations pale in comparison to these sorts of discoveries and confirmations in the long term.
Long term thinking -- particularly when "long term" may mean a term that far exceeds our own lifespan -- is not something humans are particularly good at.
To a sigma 5 (99.9999%) level of certainty, they have found a particle which walks, talks, acts, and weighs the same as the Higgs Boson. That's the scientific answer; the laymen's summary would be "yes."
I think that a large part of the problem for something like this is that most people simply don't know what anything these Scientists are saying actually means, let alone what type of practical applications it might have in the future. Therefore, meaningful discussion about the implications of such is hard to come by. I love this stuff, gobble it up... but even I don't know what many of the terms mean in the real world. It's like I create this picture of my mind of how amazing and incredible the world is and simply enjoy hearing it reaffirmed. The reassurance is what I love, because when you get deep into the particle physics and mathematics... it's all greek to me.
Still, if you ask a person what a Higgs Boson is going to do for them, they'll probably be like "what is that?" And if you explained it to them they might just give you a quizzical look and walk away. That understanding gap, and thus interest gap, is hard to cover
WorriedCitizen
Member
Whatever system manipulates the higgs field would be attached to the projectle and it would itself consume a lot of energy to create this effect so i don't think energy/momentum is thrown out of the window.
Also don't think of this idea as some lightspeed ME weapon. The fastest speed reached for a projectile with conventional methods is 10 miles per second. Suppose you could double that speed or at least keep the speed consistent without much deceleration and keep it relative small like a cruise missle the military would be all over it. Even if it would have a terrible energy use/blow shit up ratio because such a weapon would allow extremely precise artilery strikes and such, perhaps even from space.
Squall5042
Member
So....what can the higgs boson be broken down into?
The_Inquisitor
Member
I took E&M and Electromagnetics for my EE degree. However, I honestly would need to do some reading to have a deeper understanding of the implications.
nice discovery. I think perhaps why the reaction has been mostly muted online is that the theories predicted this and the announcement is, essentially "yup, we got it right". it's cool but it's not mind blowing. it's not a fundamental change of our understanding. It's a stamp of approval for theories created 50 years ago.
If the announcement was of something previously unknown, then that captures the layman's imagination (and the media's).
I hope that in my lifetime, I can witness the explanation of dark matter and dark energy. those are mysteries that will require brand new theories and evidence. Hopefully we are one step closer now that we know the Higgs boson is real.
If the announcement was of something previously unknown, then that captures the layman's imagination (and the media's).
I hope that in my lifetime, I can witness the explanation of dark matter and dark energy. those are mysteries that will require brand new theories and evidence. Hopefully we are one step closer now that we know the Higgs boson is real.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
Cross posting my murky questions from the other thread, I've never been quite clear on this area of physics:
So...this particle interacts with gravity? The two properties that define mass are gravitational attraction and inertia, right? But relativity shows that inertia and acceleration are just aspects of the same phenomenon as gravity, right?
So...this particle interacts with gravity? The two properties that define mass are gravitational attraction and inertia, right? But relativity shows that inertia and acceleration are just aspects of the same phenomenon as gravity, right?
Lucky Forward
Member
Or to put it another way, they found the "smoking duck"...
http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/na...cience-higgsbre86008k-20120701,0,320608.story
What do you mean with explanation? There seems to be proof that it exists at least. http://vimeo.com/22956103
Insane Metal
Member
Mass. How do all the stuff in the universe get mass? Higgs. We needed an explanation. Now we may have found it.
we have no idea what dark matter is (well, there's lots of theories, but no proof that any one is correct) and why galaxies rotate faster than how they should based on their visible mass.
we have no idea why the universe is expanding faster now than before. what is causing this acceleration?
we have given names to the phenomena that are causing these things but what those things are is still a mystery.
that's what I would love to see explained.
ThaneKrios
Banned
Metalmurphy
Member
This probably has something to do with it:
4th of July, no one cares.
*edit* Ah damn it ThaneKrios, are you serious? -.-
haha
Aren't there a lot of American scientists involved in this? And isn't it building off of the work done at the American FermiLab? I recall that there's even a CERN control room at Fermilab.
krameriffic
Member
Hey, the guy that gave the CMS presentation was American
(he was probably Canadian)
IcyBlueStrawberry
Member
From what I know about Neil DeGrasse Tyson, he's most likely referring to the fact that the US doesn't spend money on science, not that there aren't any American scientists.
I'm fairly confident that the particle they've found is actually the Higgs and as such I'm a little excited, but it's not like nobody saw this coming. Not finding the Higgs would be much bigger news than finding it, if we're being honest.
I don't believe this has anything to do with gravity, at least not in the way you're probably thinking. For instance, don't think of mass here as gravitational attraction and inertia. Think of it as energy i.e. E=mc^2. Gravity at this kind of small scale is incredibly weak and disregarded by the Standard Model (for example, the strong nuclear force is 10 trillion times more powerful than the force of gravity).
The Higgs Boson gives mass to many of the subatomic particles, like electrons, quarks and whatever. The quarks bind together to create stuff like the proton and neutron. In fact, the mass of the proton actually comes from the interaction among these grouped-together quarks.
Gravity only comes into play when we're talking large things. For example, gravity exists because the Higgs boson gives mass to quarks; which go on to make up protons and neutrons; which go on to interact with electrons (who also received mass from Higgs), which go on to make up the elements on the periodic table, which go on to make up matter. This matter then warps space itself to give us that force we call gravity.
Or something like that
Sure. And there were lots of Europeans working on the Manhattan Project.
Did Americans invent the atomic bomb? Or was it Europeans? How do you think it's generally remembered by the public at large? Who financed the operation?
Of course there are a lot of American scientists involved, but CERN is financed by European countries.
Fermilab does very little these days when it comes to HEP. They have Tevatron data from years back that they are passing between CERN. They also contribute in means of calculation power, there was interesting short documentary about CERN's computer system and how the insane mount of data is inspected. But yes, there are ofcourse lot of American scientist working @ CERN afterall it is international research center. But as country US has observer status at CERN.
Edit. Just like NASA's big projects are collabs with various countries. JWST for example is international collaboration of more then 17 countries, yet US will get the glory :b
thezerofire
Banned
my roommate is currently over there working at CERN. I'm so jealous of him. This is really cool
GillianSeed79
Member
Holy shit, they actually found the Higgs? America, Fuck Yea...wait...I mean good show Europe. So I know this explains how matter gets its mass, but does this mean physics is on its way to explaining dark matter/energy?
AlimNassor
Banned
because it won't do anything. Yes in the long term, not years but decades it may do something, but, it's not going to radically change our way of thinking or lives. The media hyped it up to be some super revolutionary god particle, which it wasn't. We already believed it existed, it's no shocker we've confirmed it does. I mean this is exciting news if you're into this stuff, but, for someone like me who hates anything above basic science it's meaningless. :-/
So why should the average person care about this kind of stuff again?
http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4194571
Because it does dramatically and substantially change lives in the long term.
Do you like cell phones? Do you like satellite TV? How about GPS systems which power a huge variety of things from our Map Questing to OnStar? None of these would have been feasible without harnessing our understanding of relativistic physics. Have you heard of quantum computers? You will, if you haven't already, as they advance from proof of concept to fully functional devices, and they wouldn't have been possible without our understanding of quantum mechanics. We could not clone animals without an understanding of genetics; we could not provide invitro fertilization without our understanding of the same; we could not fight bacterial infections without our understanding of evolution.
Looking even farther back -- to discoveries even older, which have had even longer to mature -- even simple concepts like electricity as a power source were discovered specifically because of our understanding of conductivity and energy. Virtually every technology you use and care about is functional signficantly or exclusively because we harnessed our basic physical, chemical, and biological understanding of the universe. That you do not understand it or know it personally does not make it untrue. Focusing in on one part of your post:
To people asking about what is the use. Well, most discoveries doesn't become "useful" until after a while. Things like the laser for example (nobody knew what to do with it at first). Does that mean only science that provides these so-called useful things should be done? I mean, when we spend more money on killing each other than on advancing ourselves, then you know there is a problem.
P.S- find a way to isolate and remove higgs field around objects = hoverboard
P.S- find a way to isolate and remove higgs field around objects = hoverboard
krameriffic
Member
People have trouble taking the longview on this stuff and seem to think that science should create new technological frontiers overnight. This stuff doesn't come out of the womb ready to revolutionize our world.
Even if people don't want to learn the science, they should at least have to take some classes on the historical progression of science.
At the end of the day, the beauty of science is that we don't know which paths will be fruitful and which will be lemons. We can't simply say "HELL THIS DOESN'T SEEM USEFUL" and cast it aside. I suspect many people thought that about quantum mechanics in the 20s and 30s. But computerization (read: the entire modern world) wouldn't exist without it.
I just edited in something regarding this, but I very much agree. Taking a small but critical part out of Alim's post:
Alim said:
This is exactly my point. It's as if he agrees with me, but somehow doesn't see it or doesn't care. My point is that many people are incapable of thinking long term, and don't see value in things that don't immediatley and obviously benefit them in a material way. Science, by its nature, typically works on much larger time scales -- where discoveries may not be proven for years, may actually never be verified, or may take decades to be applied to useful applications for humans -- and thus is simply too long a time or too large in scope for many people to comprehend.
However, these discoveries are also those which produce the largest benefits for humanity, relative to virtually anything else, in the long term. If you care about how the human race persists over the coming centuries, nothing will produce a larger material impact than scientific advancement. Electricity, modern medical advancements (did you know the average person lives nearly 30 years longer than the average person from 1850?) and even flight are all applications of our understanding of physics, biology, and aerodynamics, respectively.
pouting because he's not more involved?
malingenie
Member
I can just see the scientists rolling their eyes when every journalist asks them "what does this mean for us?". It's like we need every discovery to make our ipads faster or something.
dragonelite
Member
From what i got from a video posted in one of the Higgs Boson threads.
Is that this is a way to Super symmetry theory a theory that assumes every particle we know has a super massive counter part so a electron has a counter part named selectron etc.
And the higgs particle is the stepping stone for checking on super symmetry theory the lighest particle should be in a bit more in mass then the higgs particle. And from what i heard Dark matter particles are part of super symmetry theory.
What is so cool is that the scientist are on the right track with their theories and can write off the theories that are wrong so they can focus on the theories that are still supported. Practical usages not sure if we will have any uses of it in our lifetime or if we can even manipulate this Higgs field later in the future
Someone please correct me if i butchered this explanation.
What the higgs wont make my ipad go faster. inbe4 apple patents Higgs particle
Epicus Failus
Neo Member
...You must not know who Dr. Tyson is...or you're joking.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
I don't believe this has anything to do with gravity, at least not in the way you're probably thinking. For instance, don't think of mass here as gravitational attraction and inertia. Think of it as energy i.e. E=mc^2. Gravity at this kind of small scale is incredibly weak and disregarded by the Standard Model (for example, the strong nuclear force is 10 trillion times more powerful than the force of gravity).
The Higgs Boson gives mass to many of the subatomic particles, like electrons, quarks and whatever. The quarks bind together to create stuff like the proton and neutron. In fact, the mass of the proton actually comes from the interaction among these grouped-together quarks.
Gravity only comes into play when we're talking large things. For example, gravity exists because the Higgs boson gives mass to quarks; which go on to make up protons and neutrons; which go on to interact with electrons (who also received mass from Higgs), which go on to make up the elements on the periodic table, which go on to make up matter. This matter then warps space itself to give us that force we call gravity.
Or something like that
So what does "mass" mean then if not "the property that gives matter inertia"?
Seraphinianus
Banned
He was just saying he was Canadian because it's dangerous to tell people you're American in Europe.
dragonelite
Member
I think they are talking about energy mass because mass is energy and energy is mass.
E = mc^2
And if i remember it correctly from physics on the atomic scale we used units instead of grams and such.
That was the first time physics got challenging for me you had to do all those look ups and calculation
I don't think the Manhattan Project was proof that Europeans sucked at science, and the same arguments would've applied if anyone said it were. If someone tried to crack that joke today would no one really point out the European involvement?
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
Right, okay. So we just don't see the inertial and gravitational effects of mass on the scale involved. It may sound like I'm confused but what you said here actually just made it crystal clear.
*sadface*
dragonelite
Member
Dont take my word on it. It has been 3 years since i had to do that kind of stuff(atomic mass and why atomic bombs and powerplant have are so powerfull) and i was a really lazy person when it comes to school work.
astroturfing
Member
i personally dont care or even expect to get any practical benefits from this discovery in my lifetime. i dont think science is about that. its about the very longterm progress of humans. who knows, maybe in 3012 there will be tech that couldnt exist without this new understanding. and most of the people in 3012 wont even remember this day, to them the tech will just be mundane and ordinary, like microwaves and laptops are to us...
thats what is beautiful about science, it isnt always done for immediate benefits, or for the personal glory of the scientists involved (though that happens too heh). it is selfish and greedy to expect science to be done only for the benefit of the current generation of humans.
thats what is beautiful about science, it isnt always done for immediate benefits, or for the personal glory of the scientists involved (though that happens too heh). it is selfish and greedy to expect science to be done only for the benefit of the current generation of humans.
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