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[The Technomancer]

Dont take my word on it. It has been 3 years since i had to do that kind of stuff(atomic mass and why atomic bombs and powerplant have are so powerfull) and i was a really lazy person when it comes to school work.

If it is energy mass then it seems like its a far more important discovery then I'd even thought before.

 

[SCHUEY F1]

Awesome news.

 

[Chichikov]

Aren't there a lot of American scientists involved in this? And isn't it building off of the work done at the American FermiLab? I recall that there's even a CERN control room at Fermilab.

Well, the US was on track to build it, but thanks to deficit hysteria (yeah, idiots were using that shit to get elected in lieu of policy for quite a while) congress killed it.

It's really depressing to see a country give up scientific dominance like that.
It's like nobody in congress ever played civilization.
Sure, it all looks hunky dory now, but when the Navajo start rolling out battle walkers, what are we going to do?

There's so much stuff beyond the standard model, so much that it doesn't include, and so many efforts have been made to try to tweak it, change it and include these phenomena within it. The reason why I say we're on the brink of a conceptual shift is because many physicists don't think the standard model is "fixable" in a traditional sense. It's an effective low energy field theory, in the parlance of the field, for something bigger and better, much like how Newtonian mechanics is an effective theory for low velocity relativity or large distance and time scale quantum mechanics.

That's not really the case though.
There's dark matter, that's the big one, but that's about it (there also couple of experiments we can't fully explain yet too).
And it's important to remember just how little we know about dark matter.

Now it's true, it's not a full unified theory, but so what?
I mean, are we going to shit on Maxwell's equations now because he "only" unified light, magnetism and electricity, but he didn't also cover the weak nuclear interaction?

Now it's true that efforts has been made to change, replace or expand it, but those efforts have not really been all that successful (I'm looking at you string theory).

When I say the last hundred years, I mean the past century. I mean the transition from "classical" to "modern" physics. What we've figured out since that shift is details. All of the wonderful details that arise from the fundamental conceptual shifts of quantum mechanics and relativity. The strides we have made are within that particular theoretic framework. What I'm talking about is not a stride, but a change of the framework entirely that ushers in things that absolutely could not exist within the standard model.

Modern particle physics is a product of the mid to late 20th century.
I get it that you don't like the standard model, but all the shit we're even talking about in this thread has it roots in the 60s.
Quarks, bosons, glouns, all that stuff much more recent that I think you realize.
Fuck, the Feynman Diagram was introduced in 1948.

We didn't even start building particle accelerator until the late 50s.

Physics didn't stop in 1927.

 

[RatskyWatsky]

Very exciting. For those who do not follow physics, here is the simple version:

1) The Higgs boson has been the theoretical particle which gives all other particles mass. How it does this is complicated; for a beginners version, just know that it does. This means that all mass in the universe (which is to say, all the stuff on earth and the sun and everything we think of as "stuff") comes in to creation because of this particle.

2) Today, CERN announced that they have found a particle with the same weight and properties as a Higgs Boson to a sigma 5 level of certainty, which means they are 99.9999% certain that this particle exists.

Thus, While they cannot prove yet that this is in fact the Higgs Boson, what they can say is that they are 99.999% sure that they have found a partical that walks, talks, behaves, and weighs the same as a Higgs Boson. Thus, it is very, very likely that the Higgs Boson has been found, and that the origin of mass in the universe has been officially and empirically discovered.

Thanks for simplifying it. The way you put it makes it sound very exciting, even if it may not impact my immediate future.

 

[krameriffic]

So what does "mass" mean then if not "the property that gives matter inertia"?

In quantum field theories like the Standard Model, rest masses (and it is important to distinguish rest mass) are initially entered into the fundamental mathematical object of interest (the Lagrangian) as parameters. They have physical meaning later with regard to the sorts of things you're talking about, but at this abstract level, they are just numbers we put into the theory. They are not determined by some deeper physics as far as we know, but simply entered in as parameters. There are massive leptonic fields (electrons and their families), massive quarks and their families, the Higgs mass, field coupling strengths and a few other more obscure parameters.

The Higgs mechanism was originally invented because experiments discovered that a few particular particles called the W and Z vector bosons had masses that the theory did not predict. They did not enter into the Lagrangian with parameter masses, and you could not simply add them like with other fields while still respecting fundamental symmetries the Lagrangian was built on. It is the simplest way to create these masses while still respecting particle gauge symmetries of the Lagrangian.

The Higgs mechanism's original purview was not as far-reaching as "it endows all particles with mass". It was simply a clever mathematical way to explain the spontaneously broken symmetry that endows the W and Z bosons with masses that they should not have. However, the theory can be written in ways where the Higgs field is what gives masses to other things as well (such as the electron), but that's getting into territory that I am not well versed in, so I should stop talking now.

It is also worth mentioning that in all versions of this, there are still massless particles in the theory, namely photons and gluons. The Higgs does not endow these with rest mass, and the notion of being massless has extremely far reaching implications, which is why this mechanism is so cool.

 

[twobear]

Cross posting my murky questions from the other thread, I've never been quite clear on this area of physics:
So...this particle interacts with gravity? The two properties that define mass are gravitational attraction and inertia, right? But relativity shows that inertia and acceleration are just aspects of the same phenomenon as gravity, right?

Not quite, because in General Relativity, the source of the gravitational field is stress-energy, not mass.

This is why, for instance, EM radiation contributes to gravitation even though photons are massless.

 

[The Technomancer]

In quantum field theories like the Standard Model, rest masses (and it is important to distinguish rest mass) are initially entered into the fundamental mathematical object of interest (the Lagrangian) as parameters. They have physical meaning later with regard to the sorts of things you're talking about, but at this abstract level, they are just numbers we put into the theory. They are not determined by some deeper physics as far as we know, but simply entered in as parameters. There are massive leptonic fields (electrons and their families), massive quarks and their families, the Higgs mass, field coupling strengths and a few other more obscure parameters.

Okay, all of that more or less makes sense. One question: at the abstract level they don't have physical meaning in terms of gravity or inertia, but what physical meaning do they have? Don't they have to have some kind of implication? Otherwise how can you assign different particles different masses?

 

[Chichikov]

Okay, all of that more or less makes sense. One question: at the abstract level they don't have physical meaning in terms of gravity or inertia, but what physical meaning do they have? Don't they have to have some kind of implication? Otherwise how can you assign different particles different masses?

They all do have meaning in the context of the standard model, the point he was trying to make (I think) is that the equations (and in fact, the entire mathematical framework behind the standard model) don't require them to have any specific value, or to put it in other words, it really does nothing to explain the 'why' of those values.

Which is also why we had to measure the mass of the higgs boson instead calculating it (yeah physics majors, I know, this is a gross oversimplification, deal with).

 

[krameriffic]

Okay, all of that more or less makes sense. One question: at the abstract level they don't have physical meaning in terms of gravity or inertia, but what physical meaning do they have? Don't they have to have some kind of implication? Otherwise how can you assign different particles different masses?

At the Lagrangian level in pure standard model, I would say they don't really have much of a meaning other than to distinguish the different generations of leptons and quarks. This is one of the great conceptual shortcomings of the model. We don't really understand why there are electrons, muons and taus or up, charm and top quarks; their properties within the model are just differentiated by progressively higher masses. Without the mass differences, the three families of leptons and quarks are indistinguishable.

What the masses actually do is differentiate their kinematics, the decay rates and scattering cross sections, which we measure with detectors at our accelerators. This is basically where the masses start to come into play in the traditional physical sense of inertia. But this kind of stuff enters into the game down the road, based on less nebulous physical considerations than the different symmetries that build the Lagrangian.

As far as gravitation, it's so weak that it doesn't affect interactions at these energies and there is no gravitational wing to the standard model yet (another of its great shortcomings). Textbooks typically have a section in them titled "Quantum Field Theory in Curved Spacetimes" which is the weak way of putting this kind of theory into a GR gravitational context. Otherwise, experimental high energy physicists just forget gravitation even exists. The most sophisticated they'd get would be to think of masses vaguely as gravitational charge.

 

[Remyzero]

Correct me if I'm wrong but that would explain why the strength of the gravitational and EM forces decrease as the masses get further apart. The smaller masses can travel further across the Higgs field.

 

[Ruas]

so was this supposed to disprove God or something?

 

[KHarvey16]

so was this supposed to disprove God or something?

Yup, that's precisely what they intended to do. Mission accomplished, take Sunday off.

 

[Cromat]

After all entertainers, singers, movie stars, presidents, prime ministers and TV show hosts are gone and forgotten, these discoveries will be remembered.

This discovery might have a much bigger impact on the course of human history than the 2012 American elections. We just don't know it yet.

 

[Chichikov]

so was this supposed to disprove God or something?

No.
The whole "God Particle" thing is just stupid.
Its origins are pretty funny though, Leon Lederman was going to nickname it "the goddamn particle", because it was so difficult to find.
But then his publisher explained to him that you can't really put 'goddamn' in the title of your book and expect it to sell.

After all entertainers, singers, movie stars, presidents, prime ministers and TV show hosts are gone and forgotten, these discoveries will be remembered.

This discovery might have a much bigger impact on the course of human history than the 2012 American elections. We just don't know it yet.

I'm not so sure about that...
We remember Henry the 5th and Shakespeare more than Abu Kamil.

 

[RSP]

This discovery might have a much bigger impact on the course of human history than the 2012 American elections. We just don't know it yet.

As Dr Neil Tyson puts it in this video, the time when the world revolved about discoveries and progress made in America (either by Americans or foreign students or workers) has long gone.

The value of this discovery (and the process to make it to this point) is more important by an order of magnitude compared to the election of a temporary ruler of a single nation.

 

[Cromat]

I'm not so sure about that...
We remember Henry the 5th and Shakespeare more than Abu Kamil.

This isn't about a personal legacy. Only a few great scientists are remembered by the general population. But the knowledge itself lives on, in academics and in technology.

 

[HP_Wuvcraft]

Awesome news.

so was this supposed to disprove God or something?

you had better be a fuckin' troll post. Dear lord.

 

[ElectricBlue187]

so was this supposed to disprove God or something?

yup. God is really a particle. All organized religion is farce

 

[Ruas]

yup. God is really a particle. All organized religion is farce

I don't think so

 

[dabig2]

As far as gravitation, it's so weak that it doesn't affect interactions at these energies and there is no gravitational wing to the standard model yet (another of its great shortcomings). Textbooks typically have a section in them titled "Quantum Field Theory in Curved Spacetimes" which is the weak way of putting this kind of theory into a GR gravitational context. Otherwise, experimental high energy physicists just forget gravitation even exists. The most sophisticated they'd get would be to think of masses vaguely as gravitational charge.

I wonder if and when we discover gravitons, how that can fit into the standard model. Like will that give us more information to relate gravity to the standard model, or are we talking a completely different branch of particle physics here?

 

[The Technomancer]

I wonder if and when we discover gravitons, how that can fit into the standard model. Like will that give us more information to relate gravity to the standard model, or are we talking a completely different branch of particle physics here?

IIRC Gravitons are already predicted by the Standard Model, they're the mediating particle for the force of gravitation

 

[Mgoblue201]

Hawking makes an excellent point. This just proves what we initially thought. It would've been a lot more awesome if we found something that would shatter our current perception.

The discovery of a particle that has remained elusive for decades is a real triumph for the predictive power of humanity, and it has the benefit of possibly leading to many other discoveries, both expected and unexpected. The elation over discovering the higgs wouldn't have occurred if it shattered our current perceptions.

 

[ElectricBlue187]

I don't think so

You're the rock of my salvation, I declare your name among the nations
You are mighty and have all power
I can depend on you
You never change, you remain the same
I will bless your name
God Particle

 

[Ruas]

You're the rock of my salvation, I declare your name among the nations
You are mighty and have all power
I can depend on you
You never change, you remain the same
I will bless your name
God Particle

blasphemer

 

[RSP]

blasphemer

M. Laplace, they tell me you have written this large book on the system of the universe, and have never even mentioned its Creator.' Laplace, answered bluntly, Je n'avais pas besoin de cette hypothèse-là. ("I had no need of that hypothesis.")

Laplace in response to being asked a question by Napoleon Bonaparte.

 

[dabig2]

IIRC Gravitons are already predicted by the Standard Model, they're the mediating particle for the force of gravitation

Right, it's sorta like the Higgs Boson prior to today - we know (hope) that it exists otherwise stuff makes a lot less sense with the models we use today. Though from what I remember of this Brian Cox talk about it, without the graviton we still don't know a whole lot about gravity as it relates to quantum physics. Maybe that's one of the next big discoveries we can get.

 

[twobear]

IIRC Gravitons are already predicted by the Standard Model, they're the mediating particle for the force of gravitation

Gravity is not included in the Standard Model, and there's as of yet no consistent extension of the Standard Model to include gravity.

 

[neoemonk]

It's really depressing to see a country give up scientific dominance like that.
It's like nobody in congress ever played civilization.
Sure, it all looks hunky dory now, but when the Navajo start rolling out battle walkers, what are we going to do?

This is hilarious on so many levels. The idea that the Native Americans would rise and take their land back, Congress playing Civ.

 

[TGateKeeper]

So when do we get warp engines?

 

[ElectricBlue187]

This is hilarious on so many levels. The idea that the Native Americans would rise and take their land back, Congress playing Civ.

Native Americans ain't nothing to fuck with. Those totem poles will fuck your borders all up

 

[akira28]

It's like nobody in congress ever played civilization.

ya think? Those polemical, anti-science shitheads will tell anyone not the least bit interested in how things are run, that they'll take care of everything that the people shouldn't have to worry about. And they'll do it with less taxes and with a smaller government, so there will be less people worrying over what the citizens don't want to have to deal with. In other words, they promise to do less work, with less resources, for less money, and accomplish more, because invisible men from something called 'the private sector' will take up the slack on everything they drop. And they'll do it out of the kindness of their hearts, for their love of country, and a small profit to cover operating costs.

So when the First Nations develop battlemechs and rise up for some retribution, I will abandon this ship so fast, and get in line to pilot a scout walker. Because being lulled into mindless complacency in a church should not have been able to cripple a country. But it keeps getting closer. And the New Righteous Democracy might set us on an irreversible 200 year arc into making moccasins for the rest of the world in sweat shops.

 

[abstract alien]

So...they found it, or do they just think they are close to finding t?

 

[KHarvey16]

So...they found it, or do they just think they are close to finding t?

They found something that very closely resembles what the standard model predicts to be the Higgs Boson.

 

[Darklord]

I mentioned this to someone and their reaction is "Who cares?". He's saying it can't invent anything by discovering it so it's useless and 99% of people wouldn't even care. So basically he's saying cosmology, astrology, all of it is useless because discovering new particles or a new planet or something won't benefit humanity today. People like that make me rage.

 

[Ruas]

Laplace in response to being asked a question by Napoleon Bonaparte.

big bang is a hypothesis

 

[KHarvey16]

big bang is a hypothesis

No it's not!

 

[AlimNassor]

I mentioned this to someone and their reaction is "Who cares?". He's saying it can't invent anything by discovering it so it's useless and 99% of people wouldn't even care. So basically he's saying cosmology, astrology, all of it is useless because discovering new particles or a new planet or something won't benefit humanity today. People like that make me rage.

Well, why would you even mention it in the first place? Even I enjoy these types of things and find it boring, your average person wouldn't know what it even is, let alone care. So I'm just curious as to why you mentioned it?

 

[Ruas]

No it's not!

thats your opinion

 

[KHarvey16]

thats your opinion

No it's not!

 

[Ruas]

No it's not!

jejeje

 

[Darklord]

Well, why would you even mention it in the first place? Even I enjoy these types of things and find it boring, your average person wouldn't know what it even is, let alone care. So I'm just curious as to why you mentioned it?

It wasn't the idea of who cares about this but the fact he was saying pretty much all science involving space is a waste of times and to not even bother. I actually mentioned it to another, who did care, and then this guy piped up.

 

[abstract alien]

They found something that very closely resembles what the standard model predicts to be the Higgs Boson.

Hmmm....if it isn't Higgs, then it will be curious to see what kinds of properties it has.

 

[TerryLee81]

Interesting. They will shut down the LHC at the end of the year for almost two years (maintenance), then they will shift up a gear.

Press Conference with interesting questions and answers: http://cdsweb.cern.ch/record/1459604

 

[Raistlin]

big bang is a hypothesis

No it's not!

http://wilstar.com/theories.htm

 

[zon]

I feel excited about this and yet I don't know what the consequences of these findings are/will be. Either way, fuck yeah science!

 

[SRG01]

Wait, hold on a sec. I thought they were still in the confirmation stages of whether or not this was the Higgs Boson? The 5-sigma confirmation was of a subatomic particle of that eV - that is, reproducible and not from outside sources - but they still don't know whether or not it's Higgs or some other exotic subatomic particle.

I mean, wasn't that why they were sweeping huge ranges of eV in the first place? Because they didn't know what specific eV Higgs had?

 

[ElectricBlue187]

thats your opinion

You don't know what a hypothesis is, that's a fact!

 

[Yagharek]

I mentioned this to someone and their reaction is "Who cares?". He's saying it can't invent anything by discovering it so it's useless and 99% of people wouldn't even care. So basically he's saying cosmology, astrology, all of it is useless because discovering new particles or a new planet or something won't benefit humanity today. People like that make me rage.

Astrology is useless. Astronomy is not.

 

[Ruas]

You don't know what a hypothesis is, that's a fact!

i dont think so

 

[NaturalHigh]

Hell yeah, science!