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[Moneal]

https://www.cnn.com/2018/06/26/poli...ez-joe-crowley-new-york-14-primary/index.html

Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, a 28-year-old Latina running her first campaign, ousted 10-term incumbent Rep. Joe Crowley in New York's 14th congressional district on Tuesday, CNN projects, in the most shocking upset of a rollicking political season.
An activist and member of the Democratic Socialists of America, Ocasio-Cortez won over voters in the minority-majority district with a ruthlessly efficient grassroots bid, even as Crowley -- the fourth-ranking Democrat in the House -- outraised her by a 10-to-1 margin.
This was the first time in 14 years a member of his own party has attempted to unseat Crowley, who chairs the Queens County Democrats. His defeat marks a potential sea change in the broader sphere of liberal politics -- a result with implications for Democrats nationwide that would recall, as optimistic progressives routinely noted during the campaign, former GOP Majority Leader Eric Cantor's loss to the insurgent, tea party-backed Dave Brat in June 2014.

Pretty big for a 10 term Democrat to lose like this. This could be the start of a Bernie backlash.

 

[LordPezix]

Nice

 

[Phoenix RISING]

The establishment has been put on notice.




IMPRESSIVE

 

[Kaban]

Pretty cool, happy for her. Crowly actually was pretty gracious in the loss, which is always nice to see in times like this.

 

[LegendOfKage]

So without being snarky, could someone explain the difference between a socialist and a democratic socialist? I don't think I ever really understood the difference.

 

[rokkerkory]

https://www.cnn.com/2018/06/26/poli...ez-joe-crowley-new-york-14-primary/index.html

Pretty big for a 10 term Democrat to lose like this. This could be the start of a Bernie backlash.

Crowley lost because he didn't try hard enough. He got out hustled by the new comer with a clear message and much more passion.

 

[Tumle]

So without being snarky, could someone explain the difference between a socialist and a democratic socialist? I don't think I ever really understood the difference.

Look at Europe..
It’s about having socialist viewpoint on how the taxes a distributed and used to give everyone a fighting chance and security.. with a democratic twist of not forcing those values down everyone’s throat with out a democratic vote..
So it’s the economic socialism with out the dictatorship

 

[DunDunDunpachi]

Will be interesting to see if this is a canary in the coalmine.

Democratic party reevaluating its own priorities (and the politicians who will represent those new priorities) seems like an extremely smart move in the current political climate.

 

[oagboghi2]

So without being snarky, could someone explain the difference between a socialist and a democratic socialist? I don't think I ever really understood the difference.

There isn't. it's just rebranding the word

 

[Tumle]

There isn't. it's just rebranding the word

Yes it’s all new haven’t existed for over a century else where..

 

[TheMikado]

So without being snarky, could someone explain the difference between a socialist and a democratic socialist? I don't think I ever really understood the difference.

Don’t worry the terms are kinda nuts anyway.

I consider myself a socio-capitalist-anarchist.

 

[TrainedRage]

The establishment has been put on notice.




IMPRESSIVE

Pardon my ignorance but what is the facinacination with Shaun King? People post his Twitter all the time like he is a head of a major news network.

 

[Deleted member 738645]

So without being snarky, could someone explain the difference between a socialist and a democratic socialist? I don't think I ever really understood the difference.

"Democratic socialist" is just another word for "socialdemocrat" which is used in Europe (Nordic countries). Why people in the US isn't just using "socialdemocrat", I don't know.

 

[Captain Zyrain]

She clearly did a good job campaigning and spreading her message. I'm not sure we'll see it repeated elsewhere, but you never know.

Going far left in moderate areas could be dangerous for the Democrat party if they're not careful.

 

[Sakura Doritos]

Her message is strong. I watched her campaign video and got a bit teary eyed I won't lie. Almost thought she was a libertarian for a minute. She seems like the genuine article. If we can get people like her to work within the confines of Capitalism and make it a safe place for the floor to not be so rough and the cieling to not be unreachable then I am all for her getting into office.

 

[Rentahamster]

Good. The Democrats need to ditch their corporate establishment strategy and embrace the politics of her and Bernie and the others like them. That's how they can win. If they don't, we're probably looking at another second Trump term, assuming he chooses to run again.

 

[ic3cait]

Ocasio-Cortez, on the other hand, is casting the Irish-American Crowley as a white man who can no longer connect to the diverse district

link

It's so weird that open racism is perfectly acceptable among the left. Literally saying, "don't vote for the white guy because he's white."

 

[Phoenix RISING]

link

It's so weird that open racism is perfectly acceptable among the left. Literally saying, "don't vote for the white guy because he's white."

Don't for get old:

Ocasio-Cortez’s campaign points to Crowley’s lack of young supporters, the low voter turnout since he’s been in office and the fact that he’s never truly had to compete for his seat.
"The Queens of today is not the Queens of 20 years ago and Joe Crowley has lived in Virginia that entire time, he raises his children out there, his home is out there, he’s not a member of this community,” she says, charging that Crowley employs an “old school boss model.”

“Since he is not term-limited and not yet 60, he has the ability to remain a force on the political scene for decades to come. No one wants to be on the wrong side of an influential politician who is not going anywhere anytime soon,” Barkan said.

IIRC, Ocasio-Cortez is 28.

And female.

So you can throw ageism and sexism in with your strawman, too.

But of course, your post was myopic to begin with, so I wouldn't have expected you to be that thorough in your reading.

 

[TheShadowLord]

I just want to put out she was something like un

"Democratic socialist" is just another word for "socialdemocrat" which is used in Europe (Nordic countries). Why people in the US isn't just using "socialdemocrat", I don't know.

Are they not the same? I do think when you should call someone a democratic socialist/social democrat you are referring to the Nordic model. The term socialist is like a taboo term in theUS because it either means Russia or Central America. And I don't think that's fair but politics in the US is a dirty game in my eyes.

 

[Phoenix RISING]

 

[Moneal]

What the hell is that crap. she really believes the wiki mods only deleted the page because she was a woman of color? Its much more likely that no one thought she could win, or even knew who she was until she actually won, or even that they preferred Crowley.

 

[Phoenix RISING]

What the hell is that crap. she really believes the wiki mods only deleted the page because she was a woman of color? Its much more likely that no one thought she could win, or even knew who she was until she actually won, or even that they preferred Crowley.

The tweet clearly says that they believe the moderator didn't think she was important enough to have one, in the context of Crowley being a 14-year incumbent, and nobody in the media even knew who Ocasio-Cortez was until she won.

The part about being dismissed because she is a woman of color is an additional point added to the pre-existing discourse.


You should try Googling "Mayor of San Francisco." The main entry is still wrong....

 

[Moneal]

The tweet clearly says that they believe the moderator didn't think she was important enough to have one, in the context of Crowley being a 14-year incumbent, and nobody in the media even knew who Ocasio-Cortez was until she won.

The part about being dismissed because she is a woman of color is an additional point added to the pre-existing discourse.


You should try Googling "Mayor of San Francisco." The main entry is still wrong....

a ton of entries are wrong for a ton of reasons. why add something that had nothing to do with it if they didn't believe it was a part of the reason?

 

[LegendOfKage]

link

Ocasio-Cortez, on the other hand, is casting the Irish-American Crowley as a white man who can no longer connect to the diverse district

It's so weird that open racism is perfectly acceptable among the left. Literally saying, "don't vote for the white guy because he's white."

Don't for get old:

IIRC, Ocasio-Cortez is 28.

And female.

So you can throw ageism and sexism in with your strawman, too.

But of course, your post was myopic to begin with, so I wouldn't have expected you to be that thorough in your reading.

Strike that, reverse it.

"The Irish-American Crowley, on the other hand, is casting the Latina Ocasio-Cortez as a brown woman who would be unable to connect to the predominately white district."

Nope! Sounds like racism to me. Liberals generalizing white people are some of the most effective unintentional Trump supporters, but it's time to stop now.

With that out of the way, if you care to make a counter argument why an Irish-American politician would have difficulty serving the interests of a diverse community, I'd be happy to entertain the thought that there could be some truth to her position. As per the example, do you also believe a Hispanic woman would have difficulties connecting to a mostly white district? Because I do think that just sounds racist. So why not the other way around?

 

[ZehDon]

That’s a hell of a disruption. Faith in the political system as it stands is pretty low, I guess this is what grass roots rejection of it looks like. Good on her - getting involved in the system is the best way to change it.

 

[Rentahamster]

Don't forget ric

So without being snarky, could someone explain the difference between a socialist and a democratic socialist? I don't think I ever really understood the difference.

A Democratic Socialist would want to see socialist reforms such as workers owning the means of production and the abolition of capitalism through democratic, policy changes. This would be in contrast to the rather revolutionary, and authoritarian attempt to establish socialism via Stalinism in the Soviet Union.

However, a lot of people use the terms Democratic Socialist and Social Democrat interchangeably even though they're not technically the same thing. If someone says they advocate policies akin to the Nordic model, they are a Social Democrat. The Nordic countries are not socialist. Capitalism forms the basis of their economy.

 

[Kataploom]

Venezuelan here o/

I'm afraid that this is happening... Socialism is not a good thing, not in the slightest, believe me... This is a sign that must be taken seriouly, we had enough before Trump and we can't get rid of that yet, this is no joke guys (tho it looks like that for people not having lived that hell yet...)

 

[Deleted member 738645]

Venezuelan here o/

I'm afraid that this is happening... Socialism is not a good thing, not in the slightest, believe me... This is a sign that must be taken seriouly, we had enough before Trump and we can't get rid of that yet, this is no joke guys (tho it looks like that for people not having lived that hell yet...)

Why is it every time democratic socialism/socialdemocracy is mentioned, Venezuela is the example? People like Ocasio and Bernie want the US to become a Scandinavian socaldemocracy, you know, pretty much the best country to live in according to the UN.

 

[GrizzleBoy]

Strike that, reverse it.

"The Irish-American Crowley, on the other hand, is casting the Latina Ocasio-Cortez as a brown woman who would be unable to connect to the predominately white district."

Nope! Sounds like racism to me. Liberals generalizing white people are some of the most effective unintentional Trump supporters, but it's time to stop now.

With that out of the way, if you care to make a counter argument why an Irish-American politician would have difficulty serving the interests of a diverse community, I'd be happy to entertain the thought that there could be some truth to her position. As per the example, do you also believe a Hispanic woman would have difficulties connecting to a mostly white district? Because I do think that just sounds racist. So why not the other way around?

Did you read the quotes Phoenix posted, showing that she didn't actually say those things, though?

Cortezs actual point was that Crowley didn't have support from the younger generations and that he is not as connected as an every day member of the community because that district is his cushy, (previously)uncontested job, instead of his home/life because he lives elsewhere.

Your post would only work as a rebuttal if you also included a direct quote from your fictional version of Irish American Crowley not actually saying the things we're being told he said.

Spoiler: Snark

Why-do-you-always-have-to-make-everything-about-race™

 

[LegendOfKage]

Did you read the quotes Phoenix posted, showing that she didn't actually say those things, though?

Cortezs actual point was that Crowley didn't have support from the younger generations and that he is not as connected as an every day member of the community because that district is his cushy, (previously)uncontested job, instead of his home/life because he lives elsewhere.

Your post would only work as a rebuttal if you also included a direct quote from your fictional version of Irish American Crowley not actually saying the things we're being told he said.

I assume you mean would only work as a rebuttal if I included a quote from Cortez, not Crowley. With that in mind, posting a quote of something she said about her political opponent doesn't remove the possibility that she said something else. Nothing presented has shown she never said a white man couldn't relate to a diverse district. However, if that was inferred by the Politico journalist in question and never actually part of her campaign, then shame on the journalist...

It was at this point in writing my reply that I decided to read the article, which includes this quote from Ocasio-Cortez:

“There is a profound mismatch between the community and its representation,” she tells POLITICO. “What is new about candidates that are not people of color, that are not women, that aren’t working-class, that don’t advocate for progressive policies?”

And there it is. Why do you always have to make everything about race, indeed.

 

[nemiroff]

Ah, I love this woman and her opinions! Not because she's relatively young and almost attractive, but because she is literally insane (in my unprofessional opinion). There's going to be a lot of wake ups and red pilling amongst Democrats in her toxic wake.

 

[dionysus]

"Democratic socialist" is just another word for "socialdemocrat" which is used in Europe (Nordic countries). Why people in the US isn't just using "socialdemocrat", I don't know.

Moreover, the Nordic countries have almost no elements of socialism. They have very strong capitalist, free market economies and strong protections on private property, which they combine with high taxation and extensive social safety nets. They have nothing in common with Marx's idea of the state owning on behalf of the people the means of production.

 

[nemiroff]

Moreover, the Nordic countries have almost no elements of socialism. They have very strong capitalist, free market economies and strong protections on private property, which they combine with high taxation and extensive social safety nets. They have nothing in common with Marx's idea of the state owning on behalf of the people the means of production.

Yup. Like you say, the misunderstanding often comes from looking at the welfare mechanisms (which relatively speaking actually are quite emphasized) as an indicator of how the countries are run. The welfare systems are weakening though and it's f.ex. no longer uncommon to have private health insurance.

 

[Phoenix RISING]

Strike that, reverse it.

"The Irish-American Crowley, on the other hand, is casting the Latina Ocasio-Cortez as a brown woman who would be unable to connect to the predominately white district."

Nope! Sounds like racism to me. Liberals generalizing white people are some of the most effective unintentional Trump supporters, but it's time to stop now.

With that out of the way, if you care to make a counter argument why an Irish-American politician would have difficulty serving the interests of a diverse community, I'd be happy to entertain the thought that there could be some truth to her position. As per the example, do you also believe a Hispanic woman would have difficulties connecting to a mostly white district? Because I do think that just sounds racist. So why not the other way around?

She addresses this question herself!

 

[iBuzzati]

Moreover, the Nordic countries have almost no elements of socialism. They have very strong capitalist, free market economies and strong protections on private property, which they combine with high taxation and extensive social safety nets. They have nothing in common with Marx's idea of the state owning on behalf of the people the means of production.

Not to mention, those countries enjoy a strong competitive advantage in those free market economies - they're smart, industrious folks up North, always scoring the highest on standardized tests. It would take a deliberate economic sabotage for those countries to be disserviced by their taxation system with that kind of talent pool. I cringe when people say, " Well, it works in Norway!"

 

[Moneal]

Why is it every time democratic socialism/socialdemocracy is mentioned, Venezuela is the example? People like Ocasio and Bernie want the US to become a Scandinavian socaldemocracy, you know, pretty much the best country to live in according to the UN.

Probably because that person was from Venezuela, and because people like Bernie were all about Venezuela before the socialist collapse of its economy. Its revisionist history to pretend they were not in love with the Venezuela model and then started distancing themselves when it all fell apart.

Not a Sanders quote, but is from a Must Read on his website from 2011.

These days, the American dream is more apt to be realized in South America, in places such as Ecuador, Venezuela and Argentina, where incomes are actually more equal today than they are in the land of Horatio Alger. Who's the banana republic now?

 

[oagboghi2]

For years , "democratic socialists" like Bernie praised Venezuela. It is way to late to pretend otherwise now.

 

[Kataploom]

Why is it every time democratic socialism/socialdemocracy is mentioned, Venezuela is the example? People like Ocasio and Bernie want the US to become a Scandinavian socaldemocracy, you know, pretty much the best country to live in according to the UN.

Because this is real socialism (the one from actual marxist-leninist people) and not the one in Scandinavia? It's not even close, heck, people in my country barely live like human beings, that's a planned slavery and that's what real socialism is about (politicians wet dreams)... And that was under Obama eyes, who deliberately let a big anti-west forces door open in South America god knows why, that's part of the excuse for Trump to get into the regions matters: Hamas and Hezbollah have bases in my country (natural allies), it's a very important security problem for you, North American people... How do I know this? Everyone that follows politics know it, that's why the pope and Obama are not very popular among most politically matured sectors here (specially after the Castro's meeting), we know what it means and the reason I tell you that woman is a danger for all the continent, sounds exaggerated but no, it's not a joke...

 

[danielberg]

Venezuelan here o/

I'm afraid that this is happening... Socialism is not a good thing, not in the slightest, believe me... This is a sign that must be taken seriouly, we had enough before Trump and we can't get rid of that yet, this is no joke guys (tho it looks like that for people not having lived that hell yet...)

Hmm in Europe there is a healthy mix of capitalism and socialism in my opinion both on their own are flawed but both together in a mix can end up being better than anything else on their own.

 

[Kataploom]

Hmm in Europe there is a healthy mix of capitalism and socialism in my opinion both on their own are flawed but both together in a mix can end up being better than anything else on their own.

Sorry to say this, but you're expecting to much good will from people whos lives are solely invested in getting in a power position (and do whatever necessary to keep it)... I mean, it's ok to want free health system and much more human state decisions, but that doesn't have to do with socialism AT ALL, you can do that in capitalist states like the european ones you mention, maybe people think that "socialism" is about "social justice" or so (am I right?), but no, it's just about giving the state the control of national resources and, eventually (like cuba, north korea, etc.) including the people itself and their humanity using their wellbeing, foreign hazard and past governments as an excuse for that...

In a perfect world, taking the control from corporations and giving it to the state (the people who control it, not "the normal people", since someone has to decide unless we get mass telepathy in real time or whatever) would work for making social justice a democratic act, but in reality it just gives a small group of people much more power over your life. And they will use it. And it won't be for your wellbeing but for their own interest (which happens to be your submission to avoid your rebellion).

Do you understand why I decided to login again in GAF just to warn you about it? Socialism is about giving the people in power more power, even though we can get nice things without needing so (but they will make you think otherwise)

 

[Spheyr]

Good. The Democrats need to ditch their corporate establishment strategy and embrace the politics of her and Bernie and the others like them. That's how they can win. If they don't, we're probably looking at another second Trump term, assuming he chooses to run again.

We're getting two terms, don't worry

 

[Deleted member 738645]

We're getting two terms, don't worry

Hope not. The current GOP is terrible.

 

[Spheyr]

Hope not. The current GOP is terrible.

I agree with your second part. I'm not a Republican. I'm a Trump voter.

There are too many "MUH DECORUM" centrists willing to concede at the first sign of resistance. They need to be replaced with stronger representatives who won't bend and bow.

 

[michaelius]

Look at Europe..
It’s about having socialist viewpoint on how the taxes a distributed and used to give everyone a fighting chance and security.. with a democratic twist of not forcing those values down everyone’s throat with out a democratic vote..
So it’s the economic socialism with out the dictatorship

Well that's a bit outdated version. If you look at current EU commision it's mostly about enforcing your own political version and attacking every country that doesn't vote like you wanted.

 

[Gold_Loot]

Is this the “we need to get rid of ICE” woman? I’m not sure I can get behind that thought.

 

[Wheeljack539]

Hope not. The current GOP is terrible.

It's really going to depend on who comes out to face him on the Dem side and their problem is they have no one like Obama or even Clinton with any type of major appeal. Not to mention how certain people and their own purity tests will come into play if their preferred candidate doesn't get the nomination or if the nominee doesn't meet their approval and not vote/protest vote. Also simply going by "Fuck Trump" is going to get you so far amongst a number of people as well.

I'm going to vote Democrat as I usually do but I can't help but feel we're going to get a repeat of 2004 all over again.

And while the bad news for Trump should be good news for those of us that oppose him he really hasn't had any real mass appeal type of victory as of yet that could bolster his numbers so that should be concerning as well along with if and when that hits.

 

[NickFire]

While I am not exactly a fan of her reported political views (get rid of ICE, what???), I still applaud her for what she accomplished, and I like the idea of Congress shaving a few years off the average age (would prefer in the Senate, but starting lower is fine because that sets up younger people for Senate races later). The woman was outspent 10-1 by a really high ranking member of the House who was in line for a big seat someday. That is remarkable achievement and in my opinion good for the country. I'd much rather see people I disagree with get a chance than keep the same people who only worry about re-election and obstructing the other side. It might not end gridlock, but certainly can't hurt to try. Kudos to her

 

[FStubbs]

While I am not exactly a fan of her reported political views (get rid of ICE, what???), I still applaud her for what she accomplished, and I like the idea of Congress shaving a few years off the average age (would prefer in the Senate, but starting lower is fine because that sets up younger people for Senate races later). The woman was outspent 10-1 by a really high ranking member of the House who was in line for a big seat someday. That is remarkable achievement and in my opinion good for the country. I'd much rather see people I disagree with get a chance than keep the same people who only worry about re-election and obstructing the other side. It might not end gridlock, but certainly can't hurt to try. Kudos to her

Was it true this guy hasn't even lived in his district the last 14 years? That's why he lost.

It's really going to depend on who comes out to face him on the Dem side and their problem is they have no one like Obama or even Clinton with any type of major appeal. Not to mention how certain people and their own purity tests will come into play if their preferred candidate doesn't get the nomination or if the nominee doesn't meet their approval and not vote/protest vote. Also simply going by "Fuck Trump" is going to get you so far amongst a number of people as well.

I'm going to vote Democrat as I usually do but I can't help but feel we're going to get a repeat of 2004 all over again.

And while the bad news for Trump should be good news for those of us that oppose him he really hasn't had any real mass appeal type of victory as of yet that could bolster his numbers so that should be concerning as well along with if and when that hits.

The Democrats have no one. 2020 is Trump or Not Trump.

 

[FStubbs]

Moreover, the Nordic countries have almost no elements of socialism. They have very strong capitalist, free market economies and strong protections on private property, which they combine with high taxation and extensive social safety nets. They have nothing in common with Marx's idea of the state owning on behalf of the people the means of production.

This is what Bernie wants in a nutshell. This is what he calls "Democratic Socialism".

 

[7he Talon]

She has a real shot to go far at this stage. She has similar buzz around her that Obama did in '04. Just hoping she stays true to her convictions and brings real change to the establishment.