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Vancouver Housing Market: 33% of Home Sales to Chinese Buyers

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From the Globe and Mail and exactly what everyone has been saying for awhile:

New funding from Ottawa to help remedy what economists call an “astonishing lack of data” about international investment in Canadian real estate amounts to less than the down payment on an average detached house in Vancouver, despite signs the country’s most expensive housing markets are witnessing a significant influx of foreign buyers.

Responding to Tuesday’s federal budget, National Bank of Canada economists Peter Routledge, Parham Fini and Paul Poon estimate that the Liberal government’s promise of $500,000 for Statistics Canada to study the issue of foreign investment in the housing market amounts to just 27.5 per cent of the average $1.8-million price of a detached home in the Greater Vancouver Area. (It equates to just 18 per cent of the $2.87-million average price of a detached house in the City of Vancouver, or less than the required minimum 20-per-cent down payment.)

Still, they say the funding, enough for Statscan to spend one year examining ways to collect data on international buyers, is a welcome change to help address what has become a “politically delicate” issue in a country that prides itself on having an open economy and immigration system.

In an analysis that is likely to add fuel to that political debate, the economists conducted their own research showing that as many as one-third of all home purchases in the Vancouver region last year and 14 per cent in Toronto came from buyers in China.

Without any Canadian-specific data on foreign investors to go on, the economists came up with their estimates by extrapolating from two international surveys of realtors and buyers.

One is an annual report on the level of foreign home-buyer investment by the National Association of Realtors, based on surveys of real estate agents in the United States. It estimates that Chinese investors bought $28.6-billion (U.S.) of real estate in the U.S. housing market between March, 2014, and March, 2015, a seven-fold increase from the $4.1-billion they spent in 2009.

The second is a multiple-choice survey by the Financial Times of 77 wealthy Chinese investors who had bought real estate outside of China. Of those, 33.5 per cent said they bought homes in United States, while 11.7 per cent invested in Vancouver and 8.3 per cent in Toronto.

Combining the two surveys, the economists estimate that Chinese investors spent roughly $9-billion (Canadian) on home sales in the Greater Toronto Area last year, or 14 per cent of all total sales volume in the region.

In the Greater Vancouver Area, they estimate Chinese investors spent $12.7-billion – or 33 per cent of total sales. That figure, they say, lines up with research from B.C. urban planner Andy Yan, who found that 66 per cent of all sales of 172 detached homes in three west-side Vancouver neighbourhoods within a six-month period were to buyers with non-Anglicized Chinese names.

The economists admit their survey is somewhat unscientific, but say such attempts highlight the importance of collecting better data on the influence of foreign investment, and even immigration, on housing market affordability.

“The estimated share of purchase volume seems high,” they wrote, calling their study a “back-of-the-envelope attempt at gauging the significance of capital inflows from mainland China on the local residential real estate markets in Toronto and Vancouver.”

Despite the added funding for Statistics Canada, the federal government can’t act alone in trying to shed light on foreign investment in the housing market, the economists say. They called on provincial and municipal governments, which control the lion’s share of information about their local housing markets, to “add their financial resources” to Ottawa’s data collection efforts.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/economy/housing/study-likely-to-fuel-debate-on-foreign-investment-in-canadian-real-estate/article29371679/

TLDR: 33% of home sales in Vancouver have been to Chinese buyers looking to hide money from their government and avoid a devaluation. Home purchases have created a massive housing bubble in the city pricing many residents out.
 

Viewt

Member
It's a tough thing to combat, because any legislation passed could too easily veer into exclusionary and racist practices. Obviously, people who are local to Vancouver or have lived there a long time should be able to find affordable housing, but how can the local government really implement safeguards without it directly affecting individual buyers, who may be completely benign in their intentions?

It's tricky, and I'd be curious to hear if anyone has any practical suggestions.
 
Listen, I was born in Vancouver. I spent a significant portion of my life in the Vancouver area. I'm very excited to see a Canucks game
(I bought the tickets earlier in the year, OK?)
and the Joanna Newsom concert with my wife next week. My point is, I love Vancouver. All that said. Why anyone would want to live there or the Island when there's so many other nice places to live in the province that aren't incredibly expensive is beyond me. If you can afford it, more power to you, but everyone else could live a much more comfortable life in the interior of the province.
.. with significantly less rain.
I wish this wasn't the case, but, like Viewt mentioned, there's not much to be done about it.
 
It's a tough thing to combat, because any legislation passed could too easily veer into exclusionary and racist practices. Obviously, people who are local to Vancouver or have lived there a long time should be able to find affordable housing, but how can the local government really implement safeguards without it directly affecting individual buyers, who may be completely benign in their intentions?

It's tricky, and I'd be curious to hear if anyone has any practical suggestions.

Proof of income. You make all your money in China? Tough luck, no house for you.
 
Those of you that live in Vancouver, what are your impressions of the rental market? I have a close friend who lives there he was paying $1600/mo for a 2 bedroom apt (~5-10 year old building so fairly new- really nice view) in Burnaby. For comparison, my old place in LA was $1400 a month for a 1 bedroom in West LA (super old building). He basically said that yeah it sucks trying to buy a home but because there's always new developments popping up, it's fairly easy to find nice rentals.
 
Is that why? I just thought it was the latest investing fad.

Concerns around the Chinese economy have been bubbling up lately and the BoC has been quietly working to devalue the Reminbi. Many are expecting a large devaluation at some point to make China more competitive on the export market. The current peg to the USD has meant that their currency has strengthened against the Eur and the Yen.

There have been massive capital outflows from China the past six months and the government is trying everything in its power to stem the flow. If you can funnel money out of China, the best place to put it is in foreign real estate which they believe is a more stable asset than Chinese real estate. This combined with CAD weakness means that Vancouver is an easy spot to park cash.

The ultra luxury market is currently dominated by foreign buyers in the US and Canada.
 

Zoe

Member
Proof of income. You make all your money in China? Tough luck, no house for you.

Citizens can be cash buyers too.

I would think it would have to be addressed through property taxes. Higher taxes for non-primary residences, and even higher when the primary address is foreign.
 

Haly

One day I realized that sadness is just another word for not enough coffee.
Would intention for residence be implementable? Or would these investors just hire house sitters?
 
Citizens can be cash buyers too.

I would think it would have to be addressed through property taxes. Higher taxes for non-primary residences, and even higher when the primary address is foreign.

NYC has considered a pied-a-terre tax to combat it. If its not your primary residence or you don't live here for X months, you get a tax.
 

Goro Majima

Kitty Genovese Member
Isn't something similar happening in San Francisco and Seattle where the real estate prices have been insane?
 
Would intention for residence be implementable? Or would these investors just hire house sitters?

It's tough. You don't won't to leave home owners who purchased but subsequently moved due to changes in life circumstances being hammered because the market took a turn where they can't economically sell.

I'd just focus on status of citizenship if that's constitutionally allowable. If you're some form of permanent resident you get x, if you're a foreign investor, you get y.
 
Concerns around the Chinese economy have been bubbling up lately and the BoC has been quietly working to devalue the Reminbi. Many are expecting a large devaluation at some point to make China more competitive on the export market. The current peg to the USD has meant that their currency has strengthened against the Eur and the Yen.

There have been massive capital outflows from China the past six months and the government is trying everything in its power to stem the flow. If you can funnel money out of China, the best place to put it is in foreign real estate which they believe is a more stable asset than Chinese real estate. This combined with CAD weakness means that Vancouver is an easy spot to park cash.

The ultra luxury market is currently dominated by foreign buyers in the US and Canada.

This has only been true for the last year or two. The Vancouver housing market has been insane for a lot longer than that.

Is that why? I just thought it was the latest investing fad.

Honestly the right thing to do would be to ban anyone from buying "investment homes." These are supposed to be places for people to live, not your speculative investment.
 
I was questioning the idea that the purpose was to hide money, not just invest.

When you plop money into ultra luxury properties, you aren't making an investment. The prices there don't appreciate because you need someone else with $50M laying around to buy the property. They are essentially stores of value that you hope to be able to liquidate at a future date. By buying foreign real estate, it makes it incredibly difficult for the government to try and reclaim the asset like they would a local bank account if for some reason the regime isn't a big fan of you.
 

Zoe

Member
When you plop money into ultra luxury properties, you aren't making an investment. The prices there don't appreciate because you need someone else with $50M laying around to buy the property. They are essentially stores of value that you hope to be able to liquidate at a future date. By buying foreign real estate, it makes it incredibly difficult for the government to try and reclaim the asset like they would a local bank account if for some reason the regime isn't a big fan of you.

I didn't say it was smart investing.

My ex's family came over when his grandfather started investing in random stuff. His father continued the tradition by buying several houses and basically letting them rot under the idea that its wealth that would eventually be passed down.
 
It's a tough thing to combat, because any legislation passed could too easily veer into exclusionary and racist practices. Obviously, people who are local to Vancouver or have lived there a long time should be able to find affordable housing, but how can the local government really implement safeguards without it directly affecting individual buyers, who may be completely benign in their intentions?

It's tricky, and I'd be curious to hear if anyone has any practical suggestions.

You could introduce a large tax (~30% of final value) on home purchases made by non-residents or non-citzens of Canada. It wouldn't be racist as it would affect all foreign buyers.
 

Aruarian Reflection

Chauffeur de la gdlk
Same thing is happening in Los Angeles, particularly east in San Gabriel Valley. In past 5 years or so, home prices in Arcadia have bumped up 30-50%. There are so many multi-millionaire mansions that have been constructed. Chinese buyers are paying all in cash too, from what I've heard. And there are Ferraris, Mclarens driving around in the area now which was unheard of 10+ years ago. All these fancy sports cars are owned by young people too.

This is a good video regarding this phenomenon: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoeUxzUR4ec

And their sports cars: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sH8sSKwS_gU
 
I am assuming birth tourism also plays a role in such investments from China/South Korea/India? (There may be other countries, but these are the only ones I have heard about first hand/second hand)
 

diffusionx

Gold Member
China is starting to crack down on corruption so the crooks who have amassed wealth over the past few decades are looking to park their money overseas before the government finds them. It's affecting every big city in the US to some degree.
 

Trojita

Rapid Response Threadmaker
I actually saw a good write up on why this is happening. Let me see if I can find it.
 

Dazzler

Member
I've lived in Vancouver for six years now and I'm contemplating getting out. It's not a city for the people who actually live and work here anymore

It's just a playground for rich people
 

Ogodei

Member
NYC has considered a pied-a-terre tax to combat it. If its not your primary residence or you don't live here for X months, you get a tax.

That's hard when you're fighting rich people who could just hire squatters or sue to challenge your claim that it isn't a primary residence.
 
Lets clarify the wording is Chinese investors with resource and funding from China, and not of Chinese descent living in Canada.

My income can't afford shit in Toronto and pending on the exact wording, it's one or the other.
I feel like Toronto is affected by the same problem.
toronto just has a ton of first gen who have grown up now and have the high paying jobs to afford so.

What is typically more damaging is people who are now buying multiple as investment purchases driving up cost.
 

diffusionx

Gold Member
That's hard when you're fighting rich people who could just hire squatters or sue to challenge your claim that it isn't a primary residence.

Squatters would be an improvement, because at least they're living in the place.

These places get massive tax abatements, in part on the idea that you're living in the city and consuming goods and services. As it is now, the buildings are empty, nobody is putting any money into the local economy and nobody is paying taxes. It's literally a waste of space.
 

Animator

Member
This is why coal harbour is a fucking ghost town.

Something needs to be done but our local politicians are too busy getting bribes from china to care.
 

Quick

Banned
I feel like Toronto is affected by the same problem.

The bit about basing the data on purchasers with non-Anglicized names may be a bit misleading. Contracts are usually done up with the person's legal name, basically what's on their driver's license.

Plenty of Chinese people (at least, based on the people I've had to work with) do have Anglicized names, but half or even most of the time isn't reflected on their driver's license and/or legal papers.

I work in real estate
 
Vancouver is a great city. But trying to settle down there seems insane with how the market is going on there. Not like Toronto is that much better either since people are being pushed further and further from the gta. I don't know what I'm going to do in the next 5 years.
 
The bit about basing the data on purchasers with non-Anglicized names may be a bit misleading. Contracts are usually done up with the person's legal name, basically what's on their driver's license.

Plenty of Chinese people (at least, based on the people I've had to work with) do have Anglicized names, but half or even most of the time isn't reflected on their driver's license and/or legal papers.

I work in real estate
Fun question: how fast have you seen a house go from listing to sold in the last year.

Where I am looking, the average seems to be around a week.
 

Kave_Man

come in my shame circle
The bit about basing the data on purchasers with non-Anglicized names may be a bit misleading. Contracts are usually done up with the person's legal name, basically what's on their driver's license.

Plenty of Chinese people (at least, based on the people I've had to work with) do have Anglicized names, but half or even most of the time isn't reflected on their driver's license and/or legal papers.

I work in real estate

Now I know why you actually knew what my work was.
 

sikkinixx

Member
Problem is if they try to fix the problem it fucks over all the people who have bought at insane prices with the expectation it would continue to rise. It's why my folks bailed on the lower mainland, cashed out a million bucks for the $400k they paid less than a decade earlier and moved to the Sunshine coast. I'm seriously considering following if my wife and I can get work there.
 

Quick

Banned
Fun question: how fast have you seen a house go from listing to sold in the last year.

Where I am looking, the average seems to be around a week.

It's funny, I don't even know, but I do hear talk from agents about this whenever I see them.

I'm not an agent, by the way. I do paperwork for various developments in the city.

Now I know why you actually knew what my work was.

hug17.gif
 

Zoe

Member
That's hard when you're fighting rich people who could just hire squatters or sue to challenge your claim that it isn't a primary residence.

The squatters would have to successfully impersonate the owners.
 

Makai

Member
Is that why? I just thought it was the latest investing fad.
Property investment has been popular in China for a long time. There's a ridiculous amount of properties in China that are vacant and just used to store value
 
Same thing is happening in Los Angeles, particularly east in San Gabriel Valley. In past 5 years or so, home prices in Arcadia have bumped up 30-50%. There are so many multi-millionaire mansions that have been constructed. Chinese buyers are paying all in cash too, from what I've heard. And there are Ferraris, Mclarens driving around in the area now which was unheard of 10+ years ago. All these fancy sports cars are owned by young people too.

This is a good video regarding this phenomenon: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoeUxzUR4ec

And their sports cars: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sH8sSKwS_gU
I live near that area. Can confirm.
 

Mr Nash

square pies = communism
There's a lot of capital flight heading out of China, and it's been going on for some time. Many well to do people from there have legitimate concerns that if they run afoul of the government there that their assets could be frozen so have been using all manner of loopholes to get their money to parts of the world where that isn't a concern, and the purchasing of real estate has been a popular choice for this.

It's important to note, though, that this spreads well beyond Vancouver. We're seeing this city in particular get mentioned a lot now because its average and median cost of real estate is astronomical and well beyond what most locals can afford. The reality is that places like California, London, Australia, Singapore, and other regions are also seeing an influx of Chinese money as capital flight continues.

The more worrying thing I see with this is how crashes will likely occur in these regions. I'm sure folks getting their money out aren't going to complain if they can flip properties and make a quick profit on them. However, their number one concern is getting their money out of China. So, even if prices begin to tank, it's better than if they left their money in China. For example, taking 5 million dollars out of China, then buying a house with it and losing 1 million dollars in a crash is better than never taking it out, then China clamps down hard on capital flight and possibly freezes their assets. Locals will get hosed as property prices sharply decline, but those who were participating in capital flight, while taking a hit on what they took out of the country, can still look at it as losing some money but still managing to get a sizable portion of it out of China, ultimately leaving them ahead in the game as far as they're concerned since they're beyond the reach of China's government and asset seizures.
 
It's a tough thing to combat, because any legislation passed could too easily veer into exclusionary and racist practices. Obviously, people who are local to Vancouver or have lived there a long time should be able to find affordable housing, but how can the local government really implement safeguards without it directly affecting individual buyers, who may be completely benign in their intentions?

It's tricky, and I'd be curious to hear if anyone has any practical suggestions.

Why would the legislation have to be racist at all? They could just legislate foreign investment in residential real estate. If you're born here or are a citizen of Canada, then you would not be impacted. I know it's not that simple, but the housing market in Vancouver is just insane right now. Something has to give.

I'm for government intervention to slow down foreign buyers who buy multiple properties that end up not being occupied
This is a nice approach, though I don't know how much impact it would have.
 

Shaanyboi

Banned
It's a tough thing to combat, because any legislation passed could too easily veer into exclusionary and racist practices. Obviously, people who are local to Vancouver or have lived there a long time should be able to find affordable housing, but how can the local government really implement safeguards without it directly affecting individual buyers, who may be completely benign in their intentions?

It's tricky, and I'd be curious to hear if anyone has any practical suggestions.
There's nothing exclusionary with saying "If you're going to buy here, live here."
 
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