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[JGS]

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=23231636&postcount=189

The current global economic downturn has undoubtedly negatively affected Venezuela's economy, but that is hardly either unique to Venezuela or something that its current government is responsible for.

I didn't say that Venezuela was the only failure of a country. Their economy was negatively impacted in part by the decisions made by Chavez and his government. The stats mentioned in the article(Appears to be Pro-Chavez unless they are reprinting a press release) can be used to explain what's causing their problems rather than trumping the successes. They also can be explained away by the facts that inflation is high, poverty is high, crime is high, & morale is low.

They are essentially polishing a [mudpie].

 

[Pickles the Firecat]

Deku has not provided a single specific allegation against the Venezuelan government that is subject to empirical investigation. His previous post amounts to little more than broad and wholly unsupported smears. And the "ton" of "bad news" is not coming out of Venezuela. It's distinctly coming out of the US and UK.

Finally, it is Deku (and others) who have "harped on" about the Venezuelan government's alleged clamp down of the media. I've merely refuted it. And I've said plenty more than that, as should be evident even from this very page.

But if news is coming out of Venezuela, it's being reported by people with jobs. If those people have jobs, how are they representative of the poor majority? They likely have computers, too. The average person in Venezuela doesn't have a computer. The average person in Venezuela isn't even educated enough to write a news report. I'm not sure how I could trust a news source based in Venezuela knowing that they're part of the elite upper-class.

 

[mre]

But if news is coming out of Venezuela, it's being reported by people with jobs. If those people have jobs, how are they representative of the poor majority? They likely have computers, too. The average person in Venezuela doesn't have a computer. The average person in Venezuela isn't even educated enough to write a news report. I'm not sure how I could trust a news source based in Venezuela knowing that they're part of the elite upper-class.

This just means that all of the good news you hear coming out of Venezuela is dramatically understated. Adjust accordingly and you're all set.

 

[WorriedCitizen]

Generating statements like this is precisely the goal of the Western propaganda campaign (of which Deku is a part) against the, ahem, democratically elected Venezuelan government.

Hitler was democraticaly elected too so what's your point? (i'm not comparing the two btw)

But thing is never in the history has a socialist dictatorship worked out and this one is about to fail in the long run just as any others before. What 2nd and 3rd world countrys need is a moderate amount of social democracy and a stop of corruption not some radicals.

 

[badcrumble]

Hitler was democraticaly elected too so what's your point? (i'm not comparing the two btw)

This isn't really germane and don't consider it an attack on the rest of your post necessarily, but Hitler wasn't technically democratically elected, he was appointed Chancellor by President Hindenburg after basically terrorizing the German government and public. http://www.fff.org/freedom/fd0403a.asp

 

[Deku]

This isn't really germane and don't consider it an attack on the rest of your post necessarily, but Hitler wasn't technically democratically elected, he was appointed Chancellor by President Hindenburg after basically terrorizing the German government and public. http://www.fff.org/freedom/fd0403a.asp

to-may-to vs. to-mah-to.

He was elected as President of the German state and was a demagogue, much like Chavez is.

You're describing is last grab for power, essentially consolidating the office of Chancellor with President.

He most definately was elected by the people.

 

[ConfusingJazz]

A "socialist" party that had promised better social security for the people less taxes for the middle and lower classes, suddenly "realized" there are no money invited in the IMF, decided to give billions to banks, tax the hell out of the lower and middle class without even touching the rich, cut pensions, cut salaries and even force lower salaries for workers of the private sector (nothing to do with the country's expenses but they did it anyway). They've also purposely brought our health care system and education on the brink of collapse for corporations to take over. Using fearmongering and lies they did the exact opposite of what they promised and the people are enraged to the point there's talk of revolution.

That's not a coup, that's just politics and governance. Your over dramatizing and devaluing a word that describes a very serious illegal political takeover. At the moment, they are still acting as the will of the people via the 2009 elections. If you don't like them, you still have recourse in the ballot box. If they canceled elections next year, then you would have an argument.

Or if the military tries to reinstate the junta.

 

[empty vessel]

The stats mentioned in the article(Appears to be Pro-Chavez unless they are reprinting a press release) can be used to explain what's causing their problems rather than trumping the successes.

That's only if you assume economies are meant to serve an elite minority rather than an entire population.

Hitler was democraticaly elected too so what's your point? (i'm not comparing the two btw)

My point is you claimed Venezuela was a dictatorship, which is, literally, delusional. Chavez has been democratically elected three times and it has an elected national assembly. Elections are observed and unequivocally determined to be free and fair. Therefore, no person may rationally assert that Venezuela is a dictatorship. Doing so is tantamount to a declaration that empirical facts don't matter. And I happen to think they do.

 

[gunther]

you people should be asking why Chavez has been elected three times in a row instead of believing that crap article.

hint: its has nothing to do with how good or bad job Chavez is doing.

 

[Piano]

That's only if you assume economies are meant to serve an elite minority rather than an entire population.



My point is you claimed Venezuela was a dictatorship, which is, literally, delusional. Chavez has been democratically elected three times and it has an elected national assembly. Elections are observed and unequivocally determined to be free and fair. Therefore, no person may rationally assert that Venezuela is a dictatorship. Doing so is tantamount to a declaration that empirical facts don't matter. And I happen to think they do.

I like that you dismiss everything other people say as misinformed propaganda when you're barking just as many (if not more) stereotypical sound bytes at them from the opposing side. Has it occurred to you that the truth may (GASP!) lie somewhere in the middle? Chavez isn't a dictator, and the electoral system of Venezuela has stayed mostly democratic. However, he's been amassing power slowly over his terms as president and who knows when it'll end since he removed term limits with a legally questionable referendum. and continues to silence opposing viewpoints both from people and the media under dubious legal pretexts. And anyone who criticizes those actions (i.e. NGOs like HRW and Amnesty International) is immediately dismissed as a foreign tool who's just trying to destabilize the country. For fuck's sake they expelled Human Rights Watch for voicing concern about political arrests.

Give me a break! You're doing the same damn thing. Get over it, you're not way more enlightened than people with different viewpoints because you've broken free from the capitalist machine or whatever. Or are you going to tell me that Amnesty International is a capitalist slave, too? That their reports of political opposition getting jailed are just propaganda? Please teach me, oh great sensei.

Jeez.

 

[A.Romero]

If people voted for him, he should be in power, regardless of his quality as a politician.

I'm half Venezuelan, btw and I was there during the country wide strike so I know what I'm talking about.

A lot of there people there love him (most likely the majority) despite the fact that he is fucking the country up.

It's their economy, it's their land, their oil, etc. They have the right to chose if they want to burn it to the ground.

The moment the people is displeased, they will hit the streets, riot and bring the goverment down, exactly as it has happened in the past. So, let them be.

 

[JGS]

That's only if you assume economies are meant to serve an elite minority rather than an entire population.

Not true. The wonderful thing about stats is they can make anything looky rosy even the decline of an economy and an infrastructure. There's a reason why GDP went up since the oil takeovers. There's a reason why bigger growth (percentage-wise) was in non-oil sectors as they were being gobbled up. There's also a reason why privatization was up. None of it changes the realities that the policies that allowed those "growths" also has caused a great hardship on the people. Turn a blind eye to it if you want to, but Chavez either does not know what he's doing or does not care.

If people voted for him, he should be in power, regardless of his quality as a politician.

I'm half Venezuelan, btw and I was there during the country wide strike so I know what I'm talking about.

A lot of there people there love him (most likely the majority) despite the fact that he is fucking the country up.

It's their economy, it's their land, their oil, etc. They have the right to chose if they want to burn it to the ground.

I agree with this technically, but again, who wouldn't vote for someone that promises the moon? The people have been facing hard times for a while so why not give this guy a shot. Also, I have little reason to doubt that Chavez's words are the primary ones heard and that his solutions often times seem like the only solutions. Most people don't understand the economic ramifications of some decisions, so the average person doesn't realize that controlling your own oil involves more than just ownershiop and raking in the dough. Even Chavez doesn't get that.

He seems to be one of the nicest dictators ever. People have loved far worse than him because there are still benefits to be gained. However, he's championing the cause of pure socialism in the end at the expense of using his country as the experiment for it. As with many experiments, some things work, some things don't and the big things aren't working right now apparently. It's sad

 

[Piano]

Is that it? I was excited to hear empty vessel's response.

 

[fortified_concept]

However, he's been amassing power slowly over his terms as president and who knows when it'll end since he removed term limits with a legally questionable referendum.

Now that's something ridiculously ironic. Accusing a leader of not being that democratic because he used one of the most democratic processes (if not the most) known to man, a referendum which is direct democracy.

 

[Piano]

Now that's something ridiculously ironic. Accusing a leader of not being that democratic because he used one of the most democratic processes (if not the most) known to man, a referendum which is direct democracy.

Did you read what I linked? It wasn't illegal, just subject to some pretty deliberate political maneuvering to get it passed quickly.

 

[fortified_concept]

Did you read what I linked? It wasn't illegal, just subject to some pretty deliberate political maneuvering to get it passed quickly.

Yes I did, I knew about the issue. Even if it was political maneuvering you can't accuse someone of being undemocratic because he maneuvered to create a referendum. Direct democracy is never undemocratic and constitutions are neither dogmas or the ultimate word of democracy. Some constitutions in Latin America for example were created with the "help" of military juntas to keep governments weak and unstable so that the rich and powerful can easily manipulate them. And if you want to be dogmatic about it instead of using logic the constitutional court ruled that the change was legal thus you accusation is factually wrong about the illegal part.