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Venezuelan troops occupy major food distributor- blame goods shortages on them

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Piecake

Member
Venezuelan troops occupied a Caracas warehouse complex used by local food giant Empresas Polar and Nestle to distribute food and beverages, workers and company officials said on Thursday.

The move follows months of accusations by President Nicolas Maduro that Polar, the country's largest private employer, is working to sabotage the economy. The company denies this.

Workers said dozens of national guard and police took over the building on Wednesday evening. National Guard troops remained within the complex. Graffiti on its walls read, "No to expropriation."
Polar said the move puts 2,000 employees' jobs at risk.

"This is our principal dispatch center," company director Manuel Larrazabal said in a statement, adding that Polar sent 12,000 tons of food and six million liters of drink out every month from the site. "We ask that the measure be reconsidered."

he OPEC nation is suffering what is believed to be triple-digit inflation and shortages of basic goods from shampoo to chicken. Critics blame a failed state-led economic model while the government says an "economic war" is behind the problems.

Polar has said its operations are limited by its inability to obtain dollars to import raw materials.

Authorities told Polar the area was to be used for housing, said a company source who is unauthorized to speak publicly about the issue.

Around 50 people on Thursday rallied outside the complex in support of the measure, chanting, "We want homes."

http://www.cnbc.com/2015/07/30/vene...olar-nestle-food-distribution-warehouses.html

Good idea! Disrupt and tear down your food distributors to build homes. I am sure that will solve the massive goods shortages in Venezuela

Know what might be the problem? Venezuela's huge currency crisis

Venezuelans are struggling to call abroad as telephone carriers fall behind on payments to international partners amid a currency crisis that is leaving the country increasingly cut off from the rest of the world.

The South American nation's largest private telephone operator, Movistar, quietly ended service to all but 10 countries in May. The other major private operator here, Digitel, cut service to more than 100 countries around the same time, and later told congress it was tens of millions of dollars in debt to foreign providers.

The changes have not been formally announced. Instead, Venezuelans are making the unhappy discovery when they dial an international number and bump into an ominous pre-recorded error message.

The phones are just the latest things to go as currency rationing cuts Venezuela off from global trade.

Foreign airlines have abandoned the country over the past year because of Venezuela's limits on repatriating profits. Last year, the state-run postal service indefinitely suspended international mail deliveries. In the spring, the government slashed the amount of local currency citizens are allowed to convert into dollars when they travel abroad to as little as $300, essentially blocking vacations for anyone who can't afford to buy currency on the black market.

Decade-old regulations require companies and individuals to get government approval for converting local bolivars into dollars. And with the administration running low on dollars itself amid a general economic collapse, officials have been increasingly reluctant to part with any foreign currency.

http://www.cnbc.com/2015/07/31/currency-crisis-has-venezuelans-struggling-to-call-abroad.html

How the hell does Maduro still have support? Boggles the mind. It is only going to get worse for them because gas prices sure as shit don't look like they are going up. They are likely going to go down.
 

z1ggy

Member
How the hell does Maduro still have support? Boggles the mind. It is only going to get worse for them because gas prices sure as shit don't look like they are going up. They are likely going to go down.

Maybe the situation isn´t as bad as some people say.
 

z1ggy

Member
Triple digit inflation, goods shortages, tanking oil prices (which the Venezuelan economy is based on), and a currency crisis seems pretty fucking bad to me.

I'm not saying they are fine, i'm just saying maybe it isn´t as bad as some people say and that´s why Maduro is still in power.

And i would say that inflation is really bad when it goes into hyper (they are pretty close to it tho). Argentina has around 30% inflation and there is no social shock or riots or whatever. It could be a similar situation that Allende had in Chile in the 70's.
 

Divvy

Canadians burned my passport
I'm not saying they are fine, i'm just saying maybe it isn´t as bad as some people say and that´s why Maduro is still in power.

And i would say that inflation is really bad when it goes into hyper (they are pretty close to it tho). Argentina has around 30% inflation and there is no social shock or riots or whatever. It could be a similar situation that Allende had in Chile in the 70's.

They are literally killing each other over food. It had the second highest murder rate of any country in the world, and that was last year. The government stopped giving out numbers this year after the murder rate shot up even higher. From what my friends who have family there tell me, it's very much as bad as it seems.
 

Ahasverus

Member
Over/under on collapse of the regime?
They are losing the regional elections by a wide margin, this just keeps digging deeper that happens when you elect a fanatical bus driver as your president.
I'm not saying they are fine, i'm just saying maybe it isn´t as bad as some people say and that´s why Maduro is still in power.
I'm sure GAF has a few venezuelan who have fled the country in terror (I know two of them) and other that are still there and can enlighten us more.
 

mantidor

Member
How the hell does Maduro still have support? Boggles the mind. It is only going to get worse for them because gas prices sure as shit don't look like they are going up. They are likely going to go down.

He holds dear to Chavez' cult of personality, but he is not even a little bit as charismatic as him so he is constantly draining support, but the hardcore are completely brainwashed and will continue to support him as Chavez' chosen.

All these quasi-dictators of the left thrive in the ignorance and poverty of their people, and they are not even secretive about it, Cabello, an important govern member, literally said: "we don't want poor people to become middle class people and turn bourgeois against us" in a public interview.
 

Piecake

Member
I'm not saying they are fine, i'm just saying maybe it isn´t as bad as some people say and that´s why Maduro is still in power.

And i would say that inflation is really bad when it goes into hyper (they are pretty close to it tho). Argentina has around 30% inflation and there is no social shock or riots or whatever. It could be a similar situation that Allende had in Chile in the 70's.

I really don't think you can state it as simply as that. I mean, look at North Korea. It is undeniably awful there and yet that regime has remained in power. There are other factors that keep governments in power besides how well the country is doing.

http://www.cnbc.com/2015/07/31/currency-crisis-has-venezuelans-struggling-to-call-abroad.html

That article should be a good indication of how things are, and where they are likely to go.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/article/33164866/we-need-to-talk-about-venezuela

Apparently, many of the poor still support Maduro, but I really doubt that is going to last when Venezuela can no longer afford those services, and don't have any necessary goods for people.

And Triple digit inflation is terrible. It destroys purchasing power, makes everyone poorer, and completely disrupts the private sector of the economy.
 

Ahasverus

Member
How the hell does Maduro still have support? Boggles the mind. It is only going to get worse for them because gas prices sure as shit don't look like they are going up. They are likely going to go down.
You want the harsh truth? Venezuela is a very uneducated country in general, Chavez destroyed public education with his classes dedicated to himself and such, and he of course scared private institutions. A very large part of the people of Venezuela have no labor skills and depended on the booming petroleum industry to do the cash flow, so of course they like the guys who give them all for "free", the problem is that, right now, not even the free things are being guaranteed, and that's why a revolt air is starting to appear.
 
Venezuela's problems are not the fault of Socialism, they are the fault of runaway corruption that already existed before Chavez, increased exponentially during his time, and has continued unabated during Maduro's term. Whether Chavez's brand of 'socialism' makes it easier for that corruption to exist is another matter entirely.

Source: I see hour long lines of people waiting for basic foodstuffs every day.
 

~Devil Trigger~

In favor of setting Muslim women on fire
Before people jump on a bandwagon...

Coming from Haiti I know how a powerful, monopolistic Private Sector CAN sabotage a country for political reasons, so yeah Maduro is nuts and have a history, its not pure runaway conspiracy theory.

And The Venezuelan private sector has a shitty history too, so I dont put this allegation pass them.
 
Before people jump on a bandwagon...

Coming from Haiti I know how a powerful, monopolistic Private Sector CAN sabotage a country for political reasons, so yeah Maduro is nuts and have a history, its not pure runaway conspiracy theory.

And The Venezuelan private sector has a shitty history too, so I dont put this allegation pass them.

It's a runaway conspiracy theory. It's not even a conspiracy theory because the government itself doesn't believe it, they know very well that the reason we no longer produce enough foodstuffs to satisfy demand is because they've expropriated hundreds of private companies and handed them over to the hundreds of new military generals appointed by Chavez (amazing how a country that hasn't gone to war has so many generals) that have gone on to run them into the ground.

And when the country finds itself in need of importing food from abroad, it is this very government that doesn't allow companies to buy foreign currency to bring them in - because, of course, the government officials that manage the currency would rather give 'assign' that money to their cronies, at absurd government prices of 12 bs per dollar, and then sell it in the black market at as much as 680s.

Shortages in Venezuela are not limited to food, they exist within every sector of the economy. And the simple reason this is so is the rampant corruption within the government, period.

But please, don't let anyone jump on the bandwagon. It's important for all possibilities and viewpoints to be aired out here, even wild conjecture from people who have no idea what they're talking about.
 
Maduro is just trying to keep the currency afloat by selling off assets and owed debts at firesale prices so he can make it to the legislative elections with the economy semi-intact and unsustainable spending in place.

Venezuela has natural resource wealth that many times over dwarfs other SA countries yet they can't keep stores stocked.

Horrible, horrible mismanagement of the economy.
 
Ugh . . . Venezuela is in a deep hole. And the bus driver will probably just keep digging.

And the current oil prices are probably gonna make things worse.


And I'm not sure what can be done.
 

Ahasverus

Member
And I'm not sure what can be done.
Honestly?

62940000.jpg
 

Ahasverus

Member
Sorry, but I want America out of the whole regime change business. It is stupidly expensive and doesnt work.
I know. You have no candles there. But he asked for the thing that can be done, and that's about the only thing. A civilian revolution would fail miserably with all the illegal militias around.
 

Vade

Member
I'm not saying they are fine, i'm just saying maybe it isn´t as bad as some people say and that´s why Maduro is still in power.

And i would say that inflation is really bad when it goes into hyper (they are pretty close to it tho). Argentina has around 30% inflation and there is no social shock or riots or whatever. It could be a similar situation that Allende had in Chile in the 70's.

How do you have support? Simple by building a few houses for the completely poor and broken and promising them more. Say the rich are stealing all the money/food/supplies and it is your right to take it back. Boom now you have a subservient class of people who are a tiny bit better off and think they will get just a bit better with their votes. The poor and uneducated are always easy to manipulate, look at the south in the US. No matter how red it gets things just spiral worse there too.
 

Reuenthal

Banned
The only thing out of the Chavez, Maduro playbook that was probably pretty beneficial for Venezuela was nationalizing oil assets and the country profiting of oil assets. Everything else was a disaster. Including giving away oil for cheap to allies. What they should have done is not do that and invest profits in A) improving the Venezuelan economy, there is an issue of how that money was invested. B) Have enough foreign currency for imports by saving more from the times where the oil price was higher. With both of those there would had been less shortages and smaller inflation with a more productive economy.

I don't think currently that using police and national guard to occupy the largest food companies will help fix the problems.
 

Reuenthal

Banned
WTF am I reading????

They never nationalized shut on the oil industry. It always has and always will be a public company.

I remember reading articles and news reports about that in the past. Not necessarily this one but like this: http://content.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1616644,00.html So apparently it was already nationalized but there was open room for multinationals as well that increasingly played a role before Chavez.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/12/01/venezuela-nationalizations-idUSN1E79I0Z520111201
OIL

* In 2007, Chavez's government took a majority stake in four giant oil projects operating in the Orinoco river basin worth an estimated $30 billion in total. Exxon Mobil and ConocoPhilips closed up shop in the nation after the government's move and filed arbitration claims.

France's Total SA and Norway's StatoilHydro ASA received about $1 billion in compensation after reducing their holdings. Britain's BP Plc and the United States' Chevron Corp remained as minority partners.

* In September 2011, Venezuela proposed paying Exxon $1 billion in compensation for its nationalized assets, much less than the company was seeking. Energy Minister Rafael Ramirez said in November 2011 that the government expected verdicts in both cases later in the year.

* In 2008, Venezuela implemented a windfall tax of 50 percent for prices over $70 per barrel, and 60 percent on oil over $100. Oil reached $147 that year, but soon slumped. In April 2011, the Chavez administration sharply increased windfall taxes as global crude prices again soared above $100.

* In 2009, Chavez seized a major gas injection project belonging to Williams Cos Inc and a range of assets from local service companies.

* In June 2010, the government seized 11 oil rigs from Oklahoma-based Helmerich & Payne Inc .






ETA from the wiki:
Following the December 2002 to February 2003 oil strike, Chávez referred to regaining control of the industry as "re-nationalization". He aimed at improving the efficiency of PDVSA in the context of distributing a greater amount of its revenues to the government and also by certain changes in taxation. Certain tax reforms had already been implemented earlier in Chávez's first term. As of 2001, royalty payments were nearly doubled to 30 percent of the price at which every barrel is sold compared to before when it was 16.67 percent. Also in 2001, the government lowered the income tax levied on oil extraction from 67.6 percent to 50 percent.[12]

It is important to note the political environment during the time of the strike. In April 2002, the opposition took advantage of mass demonstrations in Caracas and attempted to overthrow Chavez. A few months after the failure of the coup and the return of Chavez, a combination of labor unions and business groups called for an "indefinite national strike" which, in many places, turned out to be a forced 'bosses lock out' where the employees were prevented from working.

In 2006, the government had a 40 percent share which was announced to be increased by 20 percent. Some believe this move could potentially burden PDVSA with investment costs, but Chavez created several new subsidiaries of PDVSA to try to prevent unwanted costs from happening. These subsidiaries include agriculture, shipbuilding, construction, and industry.

Different media and spokespersons have reported that Hugo Chávez nationalized oil when referring to these reforms. However, oil was nationalized in 1976.
 

Vade

Member
WTF am I reading????

They never nationalized shut on the oil industry. It always has and always will be a public company.

Obviously you are Venezuelan and are at ground zero while I am not and you are more of a authority on the subject then myself. However, understand that the PDVSA is a nationalized company; it is just that the nationalization happened in 1976. The only thing Chavez did was add more of his loyal followers during the strikes. I believe he also distributed more of PDVSA's revenues for his socialist policies, but not 100% sure on that.
 
WTF am I reading????

They never nationalized shut on the oil industry. It always has and always will be a public company.

Uh . . .

Petróleos de Venezuela, S.A. (PDVSA, Spanish pronunciation: [peðeˈβesa]) (Petroleum of Venezuela) is the Venezuelan state-owned oil and natural gas company. It has activities in exploration, production, refining and exporting oil, as well as exploration and production of natural gas. Since its founding on 1 January 1976 with the nationalization of the Venezuelan oil industry, PDVSA has dominated the oil industry of Venezuela, the world's fifth largest oil exporter.

Oil reserves in Venezuela are the largest in the world, and the state-owned PDVSA provides the government of Venezuela with substantial funding resources. The government of Venezuela treats PDVSA as a cash-cow,[4] and the company only hires political supporters of the president.[5] Between 2004 and 2010 PDVSA contributed $61.4 billion to the government's social development projects. Around half of this went directly to various Bolivarian Missions, with the remainder distributed via the National Development Fund.[6] Incompetence has led to serious inefficiencies and accidents.[7]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PDVSA
 

Servbot #42

Unconfirmed Member
Umm is is too grim to think that eventually this crisis that affects Venezuela will ultimately lead to riots and maybe a civil war? Shit looks pretty grim over there and i wonder how much will put up before shit hits the fan.
 
Umm is is too grim to think that eventually this crisis that affects Venezuela will ultimately lead to riots and maybe a civil war? Shit looks pretty grim over there and i wonder how much will put up before shit hits the fan.

It has lead to dozens of riots already and massacres. The general populace also doesn't have the necessary arms to start a civil war, guns are in the hands of criminals and the police/military.
 

M3d10n

Member
The only thing out of the Chavez, Maduro playbook that was probably pretty beneficial for Venezuela was nationalizing oil assets and the country profiting of oil assets. Everything else was a disaster. Including giving away oil for cheap to allies. What they should have done is not do that and invest profits in A) improving the Venezuelan economy, there is an issue of how that money was invested. B) Have enough foreign currency for imports by saving more from the times where the oil price was higher. With both of those there would had been less shortages and smaller inflation with a more productive economy.

I don't think currently that using police and national guard to occupy the largest food companies will help fix the problems.

The problem is that most of the people in charge who could do something about anything are tangled in a messy web of corruption.

There are "points of no return" when it comes to corruption in a country (when things get so bad everyone is just looking after themselves) and if Venezuela didn't cross that line yet, they are likely to if things continue as is.

It has lead to dozens of riots already and massacres. The general populace also doesn't have the necessary arms to start a civil war, guns are in the hands of criminals and the police/military.

Any armed revolt would need to be funded by drug traffickers, who are the ones who know how to smuggle high caliber weapons en masse. However, they profit from chaos and are unlikely to support such a thing.
 

The "WTF am i reading" Machado is referring to is not whether or not PDVSA is state-owned, but more so if Chavez nationalized it or not. As is mentioned in the wiki you posted, PDVSA was 'nationalized' long before Chavez arrived.

As for Reuenthal's post with regards to the Orinoco, it's all of those fields that were 'taken' from Exxon, Total, etc. have been given to other multinational companies - most of them being 'joint projects' with other great petroleum producing entities, such as Belarus.

It has lead to dozens of riots already and massacres. The general populace also doesn't have the necessary arms to start a civil war, guns are in the hands of criminals and the police/military.

The general populace has a lot of guns. Caracas isn't one of the murder capitals of the world due to stranglings.
 
PSUV's slogan should be: "21st Century Socialism, 20th Century Socialism with a new coat of paint!"

I'm not saying they are fine, i'm just saying maybe it isn´t as bad as some people say and that´s why Maduro is still in power.

And i would say that inflation is really bad when it goes into hyper (they are pretty close to it tho). Argentina has around 30% inflation and there is no social shock or riots or whatever. It could be a similar situation that Allende had in Chile in the 70's.

Allende was also hated during his time. The ONLY reason why he won is because Chile used to have a borked election system in which the party that had more votes than any other party won, even if they only received like 20% of the vote. He was likely to lose his next election before he died.

Ugh . . . Venezuela is in a deep hole. And the bus driver will probably just keep digging.

And the current oil prices are probably gonna make things worse.


And I'm not sure what can be done.

Lets be honest. Venezuela was one of the most corrupt countries in the world BEFORE Chavez got into power.Chavez chose the wrong country to emulate from. Instead of looking say Norway for his "socialist" revolution he instead looked toward Cuba which is one of the biggest failed economy stories in the 20th century. This coupled with corruption are the core issues facing Venezuela.

The only thing out of the Chavez, Maduro playbook that was probably pretty beneficial for Venezuela was nationalizing oil assets and the country profiting of oil assets. Everything else was a disaster. Including giving away oil for cheap to allies. What they should have done is not do that and invest profits in A) improving the Venezuelan economy, there is an issue of how that money was invested. B) Have enough foreign currency for imports by saving more from the times where the oil price was higher. With both of those there would had been less shortages and smaller inflation with a more productive economy.

I don't think currently that using police and national guard to occupy the largest food companies will help fix the problems.

Chavez did other good things, especially for South America as a whole The thing is as time has gone on these things are more of a silver lining on a very black cloud when regarding Venezuela.
 

Reuenthal

Banned
The "WTF am i reading" Machado is referring to is not wether or not PDVSA is state-owned, but more so if Chavez nationalized it or not. As is mentioned in the wiki you posted, PDVSA was 'nationalized' long before Chavez arrived.

As for Reuenthal's post with regards to the Orinoco, it's all of those fields that were 'taken' from Exxon, Total, etc. have been given to other multinational companies - most of them being 'joint projects' with other great petroleum producing entities, such as Belarus.

Thanks for the info. Can you provide some somewhat detailed articles on that? It's not because I doubt you because I don't, there is no reason to doubt it, it's more that I am looking for those more details.

Unfortunately most attention in how it was reported was on how those fields were nationalized. Maybe my googling is weak but I am trying to find more details about what happened next and whether they went to other multinationals and not finding it.
 
Thanks for the info. Can you provide some somewhat detailed articles on that? It's not because I doubt you because I don't, there is no reason to doubt it, it's more that I am looking for those more details.

Unfortunately most attention in how it was reported was on how those fields were nationalized. Maybe my googling is weak but I am trying to find more details about what happened next and whether they went to other multinationals and not finding it.

No article right now as I'm in a bit of a hurry (PM me if you want more info, as I'm sure this thread will have died by the time I get back like most Venezuela Threads do), but I can leave you this in the meantime:


As a rule of thumb, PDVSA doesn't drill or extract oil - other companies are brought in to do that for them. What has happened after Chavez 'kicked out' the previous companies is that now PDVSA has more control over the money that other companies put in (you'll notice most of the companies that are in that slide are 'empresas mixtas' - mixed partnerships between PDVSA and the multinational). What this means is quite simple: the multinational makes the investment and PDVSA manages the cash.

I'll let you guess what happens to that money after passing through government hands.

EDIT: the image doesn't seem to zoom in for me in the quote like it usually does, I'll leave the direct link here so you can look at it better.
 
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