There are memory controllers in development to help overcome those latency issues - or at least improve performance
http://www.chipestimate.com/techtalk.php?d=2011-11-22
The above is an old article that discusses the latency issues
I'm not a tech guy, but does this mean that by 2020, every device, regardless of its nature, is going to sport the same components ? And do the components being stacked-up as shown mean that computers will have achieved the ultimate point in efficiency ?
I'm not a tech guy, but does this mean that by 2020, every device, regardless of its nature, is going to sport the same components ? And do the components being stacked-up as shown mean that computers will have achieved the ultimate point in efficiency ?
http://www.techpowerup.com/178459/IBM-STMicroelectronics-and-Shaspa-Advance-Smarter-Home-Initiative.html said:IBM, STMicroelectronics and Shaspa today announced a collaboration to tap cloud and mobile computing for manufacturers and service providers to provide innovative ways for consumers to manage and interact with their homes' functions and entertainment systems using multiple user interfaces such as voice recognition and physical gestures for a smarter home.
A "smart home" brings networking functions together, creating a gateway that connects a television, computer or mobile device with smart meters, lights, appliances, plugs and sensors within the home as well as services from outside. Parks Associates forecasts that more than 8 billion devices will be connected on the home network by year-end 2015.
I'm not a tech guy, but does this mean that by 2020, every device, regardless of its nature, is going to sport the same components ? And do the components being stacked-up as shown mean that computers will have achieved the ultimate point in efficiency ?
The new info suggests Sony are chasing after stacking.
We have confirmed with sources that recently leaked tech specs are accurate. Though Durango devkits offer 8GB of DDR3 RAM, compared to Orbiss 4GB, Sonys GDDR5 solution is capable of moving data at 176 gigabytes per second, which should eliminate the sort of bottlenecks that hampered PS3 game performance. Importantly, weve learned that Sony has told developers that it is pushing for the final PS4 RAM to match up to Microsofts 8GB.
If company y wants it, they can get it. The problem is not that the bandwidth is theoretically possible, but that the manufacturing isn't possible yet, as far as we know. Perhaps this explains, why Sony are 'pushing' for 8gb.
I doubt you can put 8gb GDDR5 chips - given console limits. I guess we'll know in 3 weeks.
ps. Sony should already know btw.
The SoC should already be taped out with Amd/Sony combing through for bugs. There's at least a 1000 parts that goes into a console, all of which need to work together for a given envelope.
They ought to be working on yields, then ramping in the months leading in. Sony know what they can achieve already. I'm presuming January kits was good news to devs.
Lunch. ;p
Teething problems can go well into the launch phase too. Anyone remember the rumours of the huge number of x360 defects? In the factories I mean, not just RROD afterwards. Rushing to market is fine and dandy, but customers ought to have a console that should last more than a couple of years.
360 is an outlier, from being cut absolutely to the bone in terms of build quality and being the first major launch with lead-free solder along with its speed. Even rushed launches in the future are unlikely to be that terrible.
I remember seeing a video before the 360 launch showing their QA. They showed racks of 360's being "cooked" and they seemed quite pleased at the lengths they were going to to ensure quality.
I always remember that vid and think how did they miss all the problems?
The design of the PS4 and Xbox 720 must provide for a Low power XTV/DLNA mode and that includes HTML5 functionality.http://thedigitallifestyle.com/w/index.php/2013/01/09/dlna-announces-service-providers-deploying-services-using-dlna-premium-content-guidelines/ said:INTERNATIONAL CES 2013, LAS VEGAS January 9, 2013 The Digital Living Network Alliance® (DLNA®) today announced that Service Providers are now using DLNA Guidelines to deliver premium services to consumer devices. Service Providers including Comcast, Cox, DIRECTV, Orange and Time Warner Cable have deployed products implementing the DLNA® premium content guidelines, a set of standards announced at International CES 2012 and developed in conjunction with the Service Provider community to create greater consumer content choices on consumer electronics devices.
Using the current DLNA premium content guidelines, Service Providers are now allowing consumers to stream their favorite television programs and movies to products such as digital televisions, tablets, mobile phones, Blu-ray disc players and video game consoles, said Nidhish Parikh, chairman and president of DLNA. Connected devices are a central part of todays digital home, and DLNA is continually helping consumers easily share, view and engage with premium content and services while reducing the device clutter present in so many of todays living rooms.
DLNA® Guidelines were developed with consumer connectivity in mind. DLNA premium content guidelines open up opportunities for the delivery of premium commercial services to a wide range of retail devices. The Alliance is working on several enhancements that include enabling consistent presentation of User Interfaces (UI) across devices and providing consumers with the look and feel that they have come to expect from their selected provider. DLNA Service Provider member companies remain actively involved in the ongoing expansion and support of DLNA®premium content guidelines to enable additional premium content features.
Devices supporting the DLNA premium content guidelines can access premium services using XG1 set-top boxes with the AnyRoom DVR service that Comcast has begun deploying, said Tony Werner, EVP and CTO, Comcast Cable. We look forward to working with DLNA vendors to enhance DLNA premium content guidelines to include HTML5, MPEG-DASH and other standard extensions that will enable offerings such as our XFINITY® Guide with enhanced access to linear programming, DVR and on demand services. Cox is actively deploying its Cox Advanced TV Plus video service that allows DLNA premium content devices to access Cox Whole Home DVR content, said Steve Necessary, Vice President, Video Product Development & Strategy, Cox Communications, Inc. We expect more than 500,000 subscribers to have DLNA premium content functionality using our Trio advanced guide within a year, he added.
The DLNA premium content guidelines used by the DIRECTV Genie allow full HD DVR functionality without the need for receivers in every room, said Romulo Pontual, executive vice president and CTO of DIRECTV. Our customers can pause and rewind live TV, discover and record shows, and enjoy the DIRECTV Genies simple and magical television experience directly on any of the millions of RVU-enabled Samsung Smart TVs in homes today, with more RVU-enabled devices coming throughout 2013. For the benefit of our new Livebox Play offer, which will provide our customers with an enhanced entertainment experience, Orange has been deeply involved in the development of key new features of the DLNA premium content guidelines, said Paul-François Fournier, Technocentre executive vice president, Orange. The Diagnostics feature will allow our helpdesk service to guide our customers, enabling them to resolve problems quickly and easily. The Low Power feature is a must-have function in Europe for managing the power-saving modes of Orange equipment as well as consumer electronics devices over the home network.
Today, we have millions of set-top boxes deployed capable of delivering content to DLNA premium content products using our Signature Home Service, said Mike LaJoie, EVP and CTO of Time Warner Cable. New extensions to DLNA premium content guidelines will be valuable as we continue to extend the reach of our services to more consumer devices.
If Sony can stream live soccer matches, they have won Europe. Until that happens, all this tv shows and movies bs is meaningless. I will buy whichever console streams soccer. I hope it's ps4.
"Using the current DLNA premium content guidelines, Service Providers are now allowing consumers to stream their favorite television programs and movies to products such as digital televisions, tablets, mobile phones, Blu-ray disc players and video game consoles," This from a release at CES 2013 but we have yet to see it on the PS3. I suspect that this means Sony will have a firmware update Feb-March possibly the day before Feb 20th with a new DLNA renderer and more. This will be a part of the Future of Playstation meeting Feb 20th. (March and September have been major firmware update months in the past as they are traditional Gnome/webkit/Linux 6 month scheduled release months.)
![]()
Sony and Microsoft have been ready to support RVU with DLNA and DTCP-IP since 2010. The initial standard was to use bitmapped menus but that is/has changed to HTML menus and HTML5 video (Mpeg2 and h.264) allowing 1080P and S3D on TVs that support it. The game console can be a "set top box" supporting the standard. Features like XTV, voice control and more will be added to the base RVU functionality provided by thin client set top boxes. Late 2012 Comcast had several markets supported by this but it appears 2013 is going to see the rollout to most markets along with ATSC 2.0 features added (S3D, 1080P, XTV)
Video: Comcast demonstrate Intels XG5 set top box streaming content with DLNA
Video: Comcast demonstrate Intels XG5 set top box streaming content with DLNA
January 20, 2013 - News, Videos - Tagged: CES, CES 2013, Comcast, DLNA, intel
At CES DLNA announced service providers where using DLNA to deliver premium content around the home and Comcast have where demonstrating using an Intel XG5 set to box to distribute premium content to Smart TVs, phones and DLNA clients. Using DLNA content like guide data, on demand and live TV can be sent from the Intel box to DLNA clients.
Video describing features. "Set top box functionality" will be supported by PS3, PS4 and Xbox 720. Xbox 360 (no 1080P or 1080P S3D) can also support a subset of the PS3-PS4-Xbox 720 features.
The design of the PS4 and Xbox 720 must provide for a Low power XTV/DLNA mode and that includes HTML5 functionality.
If either 720 or PS4 has the option to stream every Premier League match, I'm buying that shit day one.
If either 720 or PS4 has the option to stream every Premier League match, I'm buying that shit day one.
The rights to the Premier League are absolutely enormous. SKY and BT just paid a total of £1 billion per season for the rights to air just 154 games a season ONLY in the UK for the next three years. Thats £6.5m per game.
The company I work for is paid to be the Official Premier League channel for many countries excluding those that pay that kind of money to do it themselves. Sitting here watching a nice barely compressed HD feed of West Brom vs Spurs right now, before it gets compressed to buggery like those watching at home on Sky have to watch.
Anyone wanting to stream EVERY game would need to come up with fucking crazy money AND beat other bidders.
Don't Sky and BT have 360 apps that do that?
I don't know what's already in the PS3 but we need HTML5 video both Mpeg2 and h.264. Also the PS3 DLNA renderer needs Wifi Direct (software update) and Dbus fling from handhelds; that's being supported now server side but local negotiation I haven't seen. Voice command I think is coming, it's already on Samsung Smart TVs. Skype or an updated chat program should be coming also.I don't think the PS3 will need a FW update for this it will be more on the set top box side.
The rights would be horrible to sort out. In the UK they are already shown on the Xbox via a Sky TV app.If either 720 or PS4 has the option to stream every Premier League match, I'm buying that shit day one.
This also supports adaptive streaming (multiple compression and quality levels), to handhelds from PS4 and Xbox 720.http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p=1701998&postcount=1208 said:From Tech Report's 7970 Review about the new VCE:
Both Durango and Orbis appear to contain the VCE, so I'd expect game capture to have minimal overhead.More exciting is a first for discrete desktop GPUs: a hardware video encoder. Since UVD refers explicitly to decoding, AMD has cooked up a new acronym for the encoder, VCE or Video Codec Engine. Like the QuickSync feature of Intel's Sandy Bridge processors (and probably the SoC driving the smart phone in your pocket), VCE can encode videos using H.264 compression with full, custom hardware acceleration. We're talking about hardware purpose-built to encode H.264, not just an encoder that does its calculations on the chip's shader array. As usual, the main advantages of custom logic are higher performance and lower power consumption. Tahiti's encode logic looks to be quite nice, with the ability to encode 1080p videos at 60 frames per second, at least twice the rate of the most widely used formats. The VCE hardware supports multiple compression and quality levels, and it can multiplex inputs from various sources for the audio and video tracks to be encoded. Interestingly, the video card's frame buffer can act as an input source, allowing for a hardware-accelerated HD video capture of a gaming session.
I hope they use h.265 for compression instead. It's already approved and I think they are ironing some things out. It's only February, by the end of the year it will be the new standard I assume. Next gen consoles better make use of it.
The source is that nVidia are cunts, apparently.How certain is PS4 going to be using an AMD chip? What's the best source or could there be a surprise come the 20th?
How certain is PS4 going to be using an AMD chip? What's the best source or could there be a surprise come the 20th?
The source is that nVidia are cunts, apparently.
There are multiple indications.How certain is PS4 going to be using an AMD chip? What's the best source or could there be a surprise come the 20th?
Interposer
• 2,508 bumps per memory die Looks like 1024 bit wide IO can be supported
• 27,362 bumps per logic die
– 40um (perimeter) and 80um (center) pitch
• Total of 73,126 Connections
• 94,640 TSVs
• Sources
─ Amkor is engaged with three sources who are delivering silicon interposers
─ An additional two sources are under collaboration discussion
• Logistics
– Amkor receiving full thickness wafers in from two primary sources
• Amkor bumps front side and finishes backside of wafer
• Amkor bumps front side and finishes backside of wafer
• Activity
─ Multiple programs in progress
– Most targeting 100µm as finished thickness ; some thinner to 50µm
– Several with backside RDL requirements
– A few with passive components on top side of interposer No active interposer
– Both heterogeneous and homogeneous die layouts on interposer
Memory
• Sources
─ Customer choosing memory supplier
─ Receiving memory from 2 different sources today
• Logistics
─ Amkor working with customers to finalize model
• Plan is receive memory as ‘KGM’ on tape and reel
• Plan is receive memory as ‘KGM’ on tape and reel
• Activity
─ Multiple programs in progress with stacked memory in wide I/O format
– Typically receiving 2 die stacks, but some 4 die stacks as well
– Most development being completed with single memory in wide I/O
snip
There won't be mobile gpus in the console Jeff. The gpu in consoles may have similar traits to previously released mobile gpus but using binned chips is.. oh I give up..AMD NDA release Dec 17, 2012 8000M GPU in Game Consoles
Reading the AMKOR PDF, DDR3 is used for density. If you look at wide IO floor plans, 4 DDR3 partitions are used all on the same level not 4 DDR3 chips stacked on top of each other. This helps eliminate the need for TSVs in the RAM.Does that mean that Sony has a viable option to go 8GB DDR4?
http://www.synopsys.com/Company/Publications/SynopsysInsight/Pages/Art3-3ddesign-flow-IssQ1-12.aspx said:Cost and heat management are the challenges. Figure 4 shows an example of memory on logic: a wide I/O memory “cube” on logic, where the dashed light blue area represents the wide I/O memory “cube” stacked onto the advanced logic die, front-to-back (F2B). The red area highlights the silicon real estate occupied by the TSV, µbumps, and by the memory controllers. Both the wide I/O memory “cube” and the logic chip have thermal sensors (represented by green squares) to assess if the logic chip is creating hot spots and where, to determine the appropriate self-refresh rate for the DRAM. Wide I/O SDRAM JEDEC standardization is on-going and should be published in early 2012
![]()
8000M mobile chips are not binned, they are made to be mobile GPUs. How can 8000M be binned when there are no 8000 series desktop GPUs in production so that they can be binned? Upper end 7000 series desktop GPUs are being relabeled as 8000 series low end/midrange desktop GPUs.Ashes1396 said:There won't be mobile gpus in the console Jeff. The gpu in consoles may have similar traits to previously released mobile gpus but using binned chips is.. oh I give up..![]()
Yeah, for 6 months I've been saying stacked Wide IO RAM and Interposer and providing proof after proof. Kinda shake my head and just post when I find more proof. Charlie at SemiAccurate has also been assuming GDDR5 but with GDDR5 there is no need for TSVs or interposer and one of his articles mentions Sony using TSVs and going stacking crazy so not consistent.Ashes1396 said:And I'm about the last one of us with you on that front..Everyone else seems to be all in with 4GB GDDR5.
oh really?jeff said:8000M mobile chips are not binned, they are made to be mobile GPUs. How can 8000M be binned when there are no 8000 series desktop GPUs in production so that they can be binned? Upper end 7000 series desktop GPUs are being relabeled as 8000 series low end/midrange desktop GPUs.
8000M mobile GPUs have compute efficiencies 150% higher than 7000 series desktop GPUs.
The Kotaku article also claimed that the Orbis would be the first console to allow more than one user to log in at a time (360).
Despite that oversight, they do have over 90 pages of official PDFs they didn't elaborate on.
Yeah, look at the Mars GPU, something like .6Tflops with fewer CUs than any desktop GPU. IF it were binned it should be a better made more efficient GPU with a higher yield of good CUs right? Any way you look at it, AMD Mobile GPUs are no longer binned like they used to be. Even on BY3D the thinking is like yours and no longer correct.oh really?
![]()
ToTTenTranz said:Can we please stop assuming that all mobile GPUs are ultra-specially-binned and hand-picked chips? That's nonsense.
For low and mid-end parts, AMD probably even sells a lot more laptop chips than their desktop counterparts. AMD or nVidia would never be able to meet the supply demands for their mobile parts if they were all "specially binned".
The "mobile" chips are put into PCBs optimized for lower consumption, they're downclocked and undervolted as well as the memory chips.
There's no "special-sauce" going into mobile GPUs so please stop this urban myth about everything mobile being "specially binned" and impossible to use in a console.
Reading the AMKOR PDF, DDR3 is used for density. If you look at wide IO floor plans, 4 DDR3 partitions are used all on the same level not 4 DDR3 chips stacked on top of each other. This helps eliminate the need for TSVs in the RAM.
If Oban is the transposer and used by both Microsoft and Sony then the ram made for one will work for the other. The choice may be cost based with Microsoft having (non-game) plans for the extra RAM that Sony does not need. Rumors have the PS4 as the more powerful game console with rumors having Microsoft trying for a Media/game/cablebox server jack of trades with a push for the more casual game and VR.
8000M mobile chips are not binned, they are made to be mobile GPUs. How can 8000M be binned when there are no 8000 series desktop GPUs in production so that they can be binned? Upper end 7000 series desktop GPUs are being relabeled as 8000 series low end/midrange desktop GPUs.
8000M mobile GPUs have compute efficiencies 150% higher than 7000 series desktop GPUs.
Yeah, for 6 months I've been saying stacked Wide IO RAM and Interposer and providing proof after proof. Kinda shake my head and just post when I find more proof. Charlie at SemiAccurate has also been assuming GDDR5 but with GDDR5 there is no need for TSVs or interposer and one of his articles mentions Sony using TSVs and going stacking crazy so not consistent.