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[antic604]

Ok, thanks for replies - I wasn't aware that internet caps are such an issue in other countries. In Poland (AFAIK!) they only exist in mobile internet, which is probably related to the fact that there are no widespread popular services like Netflix or Roku that can heavily use the bandwidth.

I need to check how much I use monthly, but I'd suspect 50-100Gb mostly on legit torrents, Youtube (news, game reviews, trailers) and PSN (game demos).

 

[Perkel]

Ok, thanks for replies - I wasn't aware that internet caps are such an issue in other countries. In Poland (AFAIK!) they only exist in mobile internet, which is probably related to the fact that there are no widespread popular services like Netflix or Roku that can heavily use the bandwidth.

Poland here to, rural area 4Mbit/s no caps, when i lived in city it was like 30Mbit/s without caps. Lack of other big ISP in US kills market and competition.

 

[antic604]

Poland here to, rural area 4Mbit/s no caps, when i lived in city it was like 30Mbit/s without caps. Lack of other big ISP in US kills market and competition.

True that, although to generally low bandwidth (I'm at 12Mbit/s in Warsaw) I'd add lack of popular streaming services like Netflix that - if I remember correctly - could suck up over 50-60% of overall traffic in US. All this means that probably average network traffic is much smaller in Poland than in "the West", hence no caps are - yet - necessary.

 

[Karak]

I also wasn't aware of such harsh caps in places. Man that is just stupid.

 

[phosphor112]

I want to know, why is it hard to expect a powerful console (2+ TFLOP) when the Alienware X51 has 2.5, with a 200W power draw and inflated prices of having a Windows OS, Alienware markup and 1TB HDD? Yeah the thing is 699, but you dont need 1TB hard drive, Windows, or hell... to even make a profit, MS and Sony just need to break even.

 

[Perkel]

True that, although to generally low bandwidth (I'm at 12Mbit/s in Warsaw) I'd add lack of popular streaming services like Netflix that - if I remember correctly - could suck up over 50-60% of overall traffic in US. All this means that probably average network traffic is much smaller in Poland than in "the West", hence no caps are - yet - necessary.

Source ?

 

[Tripolygon]

Maybe, there is more information on Intel's plan that if you have been keeping up with Sony patents and onQ123 threads that sounds familiar.

I'm still confused as to how it's going to be implemented.

Intel's plan

TechCrunch says that Intel's service could let users watch any programming aired within the last month for channels they subscribe to. By comparison, Dish Network's PrimeTime Anytime feature allows users to record all primetime content from ABC, CBS, Fox, and NBC nightly and store it for eight days. It's also said to be working on innovative set-top box technology, including a system that would allow it to broadcast targeted ads using facial recognition, which could provide information like age and gender to marketers.

There's been as much information on what Sony is planning to do as there are on Intel's, probably even more.

1. Sony's Gracenote recently partnered with Zeebox, they would be using Sony's embryonic automatic content recognition system for TV second screen. I'm guessing we would see a feature like that baked into the TV service.

2. Sony's Gracenote is introducing a TV targeted ad platform at CES this year, a system that promises to replace ads run by broadcasters with those picked by Smart TV and set-top box makers. More importantly, it will tailor the advertisements you see based on factors like gender, age, personal income, and credit history. Further, it could provide sponsors with more accurate data about who's actually watching their ads as opposed to immediately skipping over them. And again, i can see same feature baked into the TV service.

 

[jeff_rigby]

Intel's plan



There's been as much information on what Sony is planning to do as there are on Intel's, probably even more.

1. Sony's Gracenote recently partnered with Zeebox, they would be using Sony's embryonic automatic content recognition system for TV second screen. I'm guessing we would see a feature like that baked into the TV service.

2. Sony's Gracenote is introducing a TV targeted ad platform at CES this year, a system that promises to replace ads run by broadcasters with those picked by Smart TV and set-top box makers. More importantly, it will tailor the advertisements you see based on factors like gender, age, personal income, and credit history. Further, it could provide sponsors with more accurate data about who's actually watching their ads as opposed to immediately skipping over them. And again, i can see same feature baked into the TV service.

Good finds. So since 2000; The alliance - comprising of among others Microsoft, Intel, Disney, NBC, Cablelabs, DirecTV, Sony and Warner Bros – defined protocols for HTML-based television, which allow content creators to deliver enhanced programming over all forms of transport (analogue, digital, cable, MMDS, and satellite) to any intelligent receivers.

Now Intel and Sony, part of the Alliance want to create their own TV channels at the same time ATSC 2.0 and next generation game consoles and set-top-boxes will have the power to provide the services envisioned and planned for since 2000; Microsoft already has MSNBC and Disney already has the Disney Channel.

 

[mrklaw]

In the UK there is a service called Youview which is OTA digital TV/PVR backed up by on demand services. You can scroll the EPG back in time up to 7 days and watch catch up program's directly from the EPG.

They also offer 'booster packs' to get over the limited capacity of OTA, which broadcasts linear channels via IPTV. This is still separated for now, but the next stage is to integrate those IP channels into the EPG so you don't see any difference between IP or OTA. At that point (this year hopefully) you'll basically have an IPTV PVR augmented with OTA channels

 

[spwolf]

As mrklaw said, biggest problem in fair usage policy is that you are told that you have flat rate Internet access but if you read fine print on your contract, your ISP (in most cases) says something like; "you have flat rate until you reach 100GB and after that we throttle (or charge extra) your connection".

For example, AT&T offers offers 150GB limit on your "flat" rate connection and you pay $10 for each extra 50GB you spend.

and yet Netflix has 25 million subscribers currently in the US, so I dont think thats a huge problem really. Any such service will not ever come close to covering everyone.

 

[jeff_rigby]

Announcement #2 AMD and CiiNOW to Demo Cloud Gaming Solution at CES

Next week at CES, AMD and CiiNOW are teaming up to demo a complete cloud-based gaming solution driven by AMD products and technologies (including a sneak peak at an unannounced graphics solution coming in 2013 for the cloud gaming market).

At the AMD Experience Zone, we will demonstrate a single high-powered, cloud gaming server streaming multiple games simultaneously across multiple devices. For the first time, you can dominate Deus Ex: Human Revolution, Sleeping Dogs, Dragon Age 2 and more on your choice of a tablet, desktop, or notebook PC… or all three if you think you can handle it.

The CiiNOW cloud gaming solution, Cumulus is powered by an AMD Opteron™ 4276 HE processor coupled with the previously mentioned AMD GPU that is designed to reduce bandwidth and latency and maximize virtualized data center environments.

Anyone want to bet the AMD GPU mentioned is the 8000 series which is coming to game consoles and is the reason for the following Announcement#1 ad release. Notice the bottom left small print. "Launch deck 8000M December 2012 NDA Embargo date December 17, 2012 3PM" They couldn't advertise the 8000M series in Game Consoles till the NDA Embargo date is lifted.

Remember both the PS4 (speculation) and Xbox 720 (Confirmed in the Leaked Xbox 720 powerpoint) will be "cloud serving" their AAA games to handhelds as Gakai or CiiNOW type video streams and the 8000 series GPUs might make this easier.

Mobile GPUS are no longer binned, Mobile GPUs are on LPM (Low Power Mobile) Silicon and designed for low power and reduced heat comes with higher efficiency. This makes them good candidates for 2.5D stacking on a Silicon Interposer. This same thrust would tend to confirm Jaguar CPUs and AMD notebook APUs as the basis for APU + GPU SoC/MCM on SI. If not using a SI then all this is for low power operation for XTV and again GDDR5 would be the most inefficient part of a design and I can't see using DDR3 in a game console so back to WideIO as the best choice which at this time requires a SI.

 

[systemfehler]

That could still mean the PS4 gets a 8500M and the top-tier cloud gaming solution is a Opteron + 8900 desktop GPU. The specs of the mobile 8000 series so far have been quite underwhelming especially for late 2013.

 

[jeff_rigby]

That could still mean the PS4 gets a 8500M and the top-tier cloud gaming solution is a Opteron + 8900 desktop GPU. The specs of the mobile 8000 series so far have been quite underwhelming especially for late 2013.

Didn't mention you found the AD and I have deliberately kept out of specs for the GPU.

Anyway I also assumed just 8000 series not Mobile in the Cloud servers even though higher efficiency Mobile designs would save power and should be a target for cloud servers.

The key I think and we will have to wait for CES reports for confirmation is that the 8000 series might have features that make serving games to handhelds or even serving video to handhelds more efficient.

 

[lefantome]

You mean cloud streaming games from my console to my other devices locally and/or on the internet?

Its gonna be awesome

 

[jeff_rigby]

You mean cloud streaming games from my console to my other devices locally and/or on the internet?

Its gonna be awesome

Games probably locally Gakai like video streams and maybe distributed processing with data and PC desktop like applications even remotely via the internet from the home network.

 

[lefantome]

Games probably locally Gakai like video streams and maybe distributed processing with data and PC desktop like applications even remotely via the internet from the home network.

Even only locally would be awesome, being able to stream content to all tvs or tablets (i'm mostly interested in media than gaming)

 

[Perkel]

Games probably locally Gakai like video streams and maybe distributed processing with data and PC desktop like applications even remotely via the internet from the home network.

media streaming for Sony is nothing new. Remote play already is working since PSP and you can stream all content beside games.

Games streaming would be a big deal but current state of world network is too shitty for mainstream use. Lag is other thing.

 

[mrklaw]

and yet Netflix has 25 million subscribers currently in the US, so I dont think thats a huge problem really. Any such service will not ever come close to covering everyone.

Talking about linear broadcast via iP though, replacing your cable. that'd be way more hours viewing than occasional on demand like Netflix.

 

[systemfehler]

Didn't mention you found the AD and I have deliberately kept out of specs for the GPU.

Anyway I also assumed just 8000 series not Mobile in the Cloud servers even though higher efficiency Mobile designs would save power and should be a target for cloud servers.

The key I think and we will have to wait for CES reports for confirmation is that the 8000 series might have features that make serving games to handhelds or even serving video to handhelds more efficient.

Well I think the key is how much time and effort (= money) Sony is willing to spend. AMD has plenty of offers for them. I don't expect a miracle but a PS4 only slightly above a Wii-U in late 2013 might alienate quite a few gamers - especially early adopters.

So far the lower/middle end 8000M series would be a disappointment in a console. We don't know yet if a desktop version would be feasible (heat, price) and if there maybe is a custom GPU of a older (6/7xxx) series with customisation based on Sonys wishes and AMDs next big "inventions".

6 months ago AMDs senior vice president Lisa Su opened her keynote with "We bet the company on HSA". The company is lost if there is not a significant force behind HSA which is only possible with gaming consoles. Now what would a weak PS4/720 show the world in late 2013? AMD was desperate enough to show of VLC media player as a "new" HSA application and thats about it. I hope AMD has an ace upon their sleeve otherwise I don't see a very bright future for them.

 

[gofreak]

Games streaming would be a big deal but current state of world network is too shitty for mainstream use. Lag is other thing.

It obviously can't be universal, but I think more people/homes might have sufficient access than some think. I think there is probably a very large population that could take advantage of this if the backend on the service's side can handle it and is sufficiently distributed. Last study I saw for the US was pessimistic about coverage - but only in a relative-to-perfection sense. Their study found about 70% of their sample was within 80ms of run-of-the-mill cloud infrastructure on Amazon. (Where, they say, 80ms is the network latency threshold for a noticeable vs unnoticeable delay in a wider variety of games - apparently 100ms is OK for some types of game). The feasibility question mark for me, wrt a large playing population, is less now about network infrastructure as the backend's ability to scale cost effectively and scale out to local endpoints for lower latency access.

But I'm fairly confident there'll be tens of millions playing games this way in the next few years. Gaikai claimed to have that class of number playing actively already prior to the Sony acquisition (albeit demos only). Only question I have is how many tens of millions. And within those demographics this type of service could be transformative if done properly.

 

[yurinka]

How about if Sony uses Gaikai to stream not just games, but also this rumored TV service (for PS3, Vita, tvs, tablets, mobile, PCs etc a la Music Unlimited)?

 

[Perkel]

It obviously can't be universal, but I think more people/homes might have sufficient access than some think. I think there is probably a very large population that could take advantage of this if the backend on the service's side can handle it and is sufficiently distributed. Last study I saw for the US was pessimistic about coverage - but only in a relative-to-perfection sense. Their study found about 70% of their sample was within 80ms of run-of-the-mill cloud infrastructure on Amazon. (Where, they say, 80ms is the network latency threshold for a noticeable vs unnoticeable delay in a wider variety of games - apparently 100ms is OK for some types of game). The feasibility question mark for me, wrt a large playing population, is less now about network infrastructure as the backend's ability to scale cost effectively and scale out to local endpoints for lower latency access.

But I'm fairly confident there'll be tens of millions playing games this way in the next few years. Gaikai claimed to have that class of number playing actively already prior to the Sony acquisition (albeit demos only). Only question I have is how many tens of millions. And within those demographics this type of service could be transformative if done properly.

Neither Gekai nor competition delivered lag free gaming.

 

[gofreak]

Neither Gekai nor competition delivered lag free gaming.

Neither, strictly speaking, does a console connected to a television.

It's arguably getting good enough though, and good enough that a lot of people may value its advantages higher. It's still early but I stand by my prediction.

 

[yurinka]

Neither Gekai nor competition delivered lag free gaming.

Lag free doesn't exist when you're online. Even if you do local lan multiplayer. But there are ways to hide it substantially when the proper speed and (specially) latency.

 

[Perkel]

Lag free doesn' exist when you're online. Even if you do local lan multiplayer. But there are ways to hide it substantially when the proper speed and (specially) latency.

I know all of that.

 

[jeff_rigby]

Well I think the key is how much time and effort (= money) Sony is willing to spend. AMD has plenty of offers for them. I don't expect a miracle but a PS4 only slightly above a Wii-U in late 2013 might alienate quite a few gamers - especially early adopters.

So far the lower/middle end 8000M series would be a disappointment in a console. We don't know yet if a desktop version would be feasible (heat, price) and if there maybe is a custom GPU of a older (6/7xxx) series with customisation based on Sonys wishes and AMDs next big "inventions".

6 months ago AMDs senior vice president Lisa Su opened her keynote with "We bet the company on HSA". The company is lost if there is not a significant force behind HSA which is only possible with gaming consoles. Now what would a weak PS4/720 show the world in late 2013? AMD was desperate enough to show of VLC media player as a "new" HSA application and thats about it. I hope AMD has an ace upon their sleeve otherwise I don't see a very bright future for them.

You are echoing my thinking and there is a good possibility that one of the more powerful not released yet 8000M GPUs might be in next generation.....I still won't commit to speculating one way or the other as there is no basis beyond feeling that AMD would want game consoles to kick ass as their advertising/marketing depends on it as the ad you found shows.

 

[systemfehler]

You are echoing my thinking and there is a good possibility that one of the more powerful not released yet 8000M GPUs might be in next generation.....I still won't commit to speculating one way or the other as there is no basis beyond feeling that AMD would want game consoles to kick ass as their advertising/marketing depends on it as the ad you found shows.

AMD NEEDS at least one console to be a beast to show off HSA (*) and their upcoming top-tier GPUs. The main question is how generous will AMD be when it comes to money and design demands and the same goes for Sony and MS.

(*) Right now nobody needs HSA Intel CPU decode 4k easily, NVIDIA has some flagship GPUs and the upcoming Haswell, Xeon Phis, ARM are going to be all over AMD sooner or later.

 

[antic604]

Source ?

I was wrong - it's 1/3 not 50-60% (in US), but I guess that's still impressive.
http://articles.washingtonpost.com/...5507034_1_data-consumption-sandvine-bandwidth

 

[mrklaw]

You are echoing my thinking and there is a good possibility that one of the more powerful not released yet 8000M GPUs might be in next generation.....I still won't commit to speculating one way or the other as there is no basis beyond feeling that AMD would want game consoles to kick ass as their advertising/marketing depends on it as the ad you found shows.

What AMD wants is irrelevant. It's what Sony and MS want, what they are willing to pay to license it, what transistor budget they have and what yields they deem acceptable. Those things will go into the blender and out will come the chip for the console.

I'm sure AMD would be happy to license top end desktop 8800 series GPUs, just unlikely.

 

[systemfehler]

What AMD wants is irrelevant. It's what Sony and MS want, what they are willing to pay to license it, what transistor budget they have and what yields they deem acceptable. Those things will go into the blender and out will come the chip for the console.

I'm sure AMD would be happy to license top end desktop 8800 series GPUs, just unlikely.

I am not so sure about that - AMD should have a prime interest in showing off their work even if that means making concessions to Sony and MS. When PS4 and 720 are deemed weak it is the worst possible outcome for AMD.

 

[spwolf]

How about if Sony uses Gaikai to stream not just games, but also this rumored TV service (for PS3, Vita, tvs, tablets, mobile, PCs etc a la Music Unlimited)?

they have little in common.

 

[Tallshortman]

I want to know, why is it hard to expect a powerful console (2+ TFLOP) when the Alienware X51 has 2.5, with a 200W power draw and inflated prices of having a Windows OS, Alienware markup and 1TB HDD? Yeah the thing is 699, but you dont need 1TB hard drive, Windows, or hell... to even make a profit, MS and Sony just need to break even.

The $700 config comes with a GT 640, a weak GPU. Not exactly impressive at all.

 

[Razgreez]

The $700 config comes with a GT 640, a weak GPU. Not exactly impressive at all.

Consumer prices and economies of scale, not to mention the alienware brand, likely push both the cost and selling price up astronomically. You can't look at a GTX 680, for example, and say it costs $599. If anything companies usually make the highest profits on the more "luxurious" items even after factoring in R&D costs

 

[iamvin22]

how likely will AMD show something next-gen at ces? and should we start investing stocks in AMD?

 

[Razgreez]

how likely will AMD show something next-gen at ces? and should we start investing stocks in AMD?

Unless you have some insider info indicating that AMD have discovered, patented and are able to monopolize some sort of industry redefining new technology, making investment decisions about them wouldn't be cogent - especially based on their poor current financial performance.

 

[Tallshortman]

Consumer prices and economies of scale, not to mention the alienware brand, likely push both the cost and selling price up astronomically. You can't look at a GTX 680, for example, and say it costs $599. If anything companies usually make the highest profits on the more "luxurious" items even after factoring in R&D costs

I'm responding to the person saying that the X51 basic config is easily next gen at a not out of this world price point and making a profit. That's clearly not the case of a miracle box from alienware proving a true next gen system won't cost much to produce if done right, and also I'm not saying the X51 is somehow hilariously overpriced.

 

[phosphor112]

Consumer prices and economies of scale, not to mention the alienware brand, likely push both the cost and selling price up astronomically. You can't look at a GTX 680, for example, and say it costs $599. If anything companies usually make the highest profits on the more "luxurious" items even after factoring in R&D costs

My point exactly.
Alienware.
Windows.
1 TB HDD.
Large profit margins on hardware.

It's a 2.5 TFLOP machine that came out.. what.. last year?

 

[jeff_rigby]

From SemiAccurate:

About Amkor Not related to MS Also About Amkor related to delay, there is no relation at all


Latest Karak guy said:
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=46003454&postcount=296



So I am searching for another TSMC partner for 2.5-3D other than Amkor.
Amkor seems don't have very optimistic roadmap anyway, Then there is Xilink and Altera and booth interesting in its own way

It seems TSMC Promoting own Cowos method (Joint venture with Altera)

Before We see The Altera TSMC let we see Xilink.
Xilink 2.5D below show how Amkor are add as added Process, for Attach & Asembly,
http://www.xilinx.com/innovation/research-labs/keynotes/3-D_Architectures.pdf

I think the big Differences with Altera + TSMC are they Bring All 2.5D/3D as process at TSMC itself, (more explanation below).

*) Also look at the Chip date 201143, it is 201143 (they Already tested that on 2011 week 43) , and the news just broke out at March 2012 (The News is 6 Month after it)


Ok To tied up that info ,this complete article will bring some fantastic explanation, i will highlight the important thing.
http://www.eetimes.com/electronics-...TSMC-develop-heterogeneous-3D-IC-test-vehicle

I agree, looks like TSMC can do SI now as it's been tested in house while GF looks to be following TSMC. Karak mentioning AMKOR would not impact MS implies Microsoft is using TSMC. I already caught that and have posted a question for Karak to expand on this.

Another interesting line of inquiry would be the HWinfo.com information that confirmed Thebe and Kryptos and allowed Charlie to confirm from the departing AMD CEO the name Thebes for AMD-Sony and the "rumors" from Sweetvar26 that the Microsoft-AMD project name was Kryptos and write his article.

HWiNFO64 is a professional hardware information and diagnostic tool supporting the latest components, industry technologies and standards. HWiNFO64 is designed to collect and present the maximum amount of information possible about computer's hardware

These appear to be new hardware by AMD that the software can report on. Posted Oct 8, 2012 which likely means it exists in some form BEFORE Oct 8, 2012.

Added AMD Sun, Neptune, Ibiza, Cozumel, Kauai, Hainan, Curacao, Aruba, Richland Devastator/Scrapper, Thebe, Kryptos, Samara, Pennar.

Changes for v4.06 Build 1740 Beta - v4.05 Build 1745 Beta

Enhanced sensor monitoring on ASRock Z77, Z75, H77, B75, Q77, H71M and A75 series.
Minor bugfixes and improvements.
Driver management tool removed from package. Functionality moved into Configure section.
History file removed from package. Available online in the News section.
Help file replaced with on-line help (forum).
Embedded all supplemental files (DAT, drivers) into the main EXE file.
Reduced package content to 2 files only (EXE, INI).
Added reporting of GPU VDDC for later AMD GPUs.
Enhanced sensor monitoring on Gigabyte F2A85 series.
Added preliminary support of Nuvoton NCT6791D sensor.
Added AMD Sun, Neptune, Ibiza, Cozumel, Kauai, Hainan, Curacao, Aruba, Richland Devastator/Scrapper, Thebe, Kryptos, Samara, Pennar.
Added reporting of SATA AHCI/RAID controller and per-port information under PCI host device.
Fixed reporting of current memory clock on AMD Trinity.

Sun is a Mobile GPU that does not show up on the current AMD release roadmap below but is listed in HWinfo.com while the following are not. This means it is in advance of the following but is listed as coming later. I would guess it's in next generation game consoles.

Neptune is a 8870M .992Tflops Uses GDDR5 256 bit (is part of the 8800M series)
Sun XT is a 8970M unknown Tflops Uses GDDR5 384 bit (8900M series is not listed anywhere)

From timing the above two Mobile GPUs could be in next generation.

Custom or off the shelf, Mobile clock speed or faster in a console without battery concerns? As far as HWinfo.com is concerned it just has to report using the same internal registers and microcode as Sun and Neptune.

Posted Oct 8, 2012 and listed in HWinfo.com means AMD released this information but does it mean the designs are finalized, probably. Yields acceptable, I don't know. Can someone answer this?

It's another confirming data point for Sweetvar26. Jaguar CPUs in the APU/SoC and using LPM silicon as is the discrete second GPU in the speculated APU + GPU. Total Tflops about min 1.3 to what ever APU (guess .4 Tflops)+ GPU totals and it likely can have clock speeds faster than would be in a notebook or laptop.

For Kryptos and Thebe they are likely CUSTOM SoCs of Samara/Pennar which are also listed in HWinfo.com but do not show up on Current AMD roadmaps (Kabini/Tamesh is the nearest Jaguar APU that is listed)

 

[jeff_rigby]

From BY3D Bkilian who used to work for Microsoft until a couple of months ago.

Wow, this is why I try to say nothing, it's amazing what people will infer from almost no data.

Think about things logically. What are the important features required in a console, from the perspective of the manufacturer?

1. Enough power that users can see a clear reason to upgrade.
2. Low manufacturing cost.
3. Path to lower manufacturing costs, to enable profits and lower prices.
4. Design that meets all regions regulations.

People keep asking why a company would back off the 200mm^2+ designs of the last generation. Simple, for reasons of #2 and #3. Process reductions are becoming more expensive, and taking longer to achieve. For that reason you have to start with a smaller upfront cost.

And note that #1 is not "as much power as we can fit", it's a much lower requirement.
Anyways, off to lunch.

All my speculation takes the above into account and meeting "regions regulations" will be primarily about power modes.

 

[amstradcpc]

From BY3D Bkilian who used to work for Microsoft until a couple of months ago.

If both MS and Sony end up with a 1-1,5 tflops ( hd7770 similar ) level notebook GPU, Steambox will have all to succeed. Seriously. All. Even the new Nvidia portable will be almost as powerful. And take into account these consoles are not yearly renewable like Android and IOs devices. In two years ( well in reality they will born obsolete ) they will be obsolete.

 

[jaosobno]

If both MS and Sony end up with a 1-1,5 tflops ( hd7770 similar ) level notebook GPU, Steambox will have all to succeed. Seriously. All. Even the new Nvidia portable will be almost as powerful. And take into account these consoles are not yearly renewable like Android and IOs devices. In two years ( well in reality they will born obsolete ) they will be obsolete.

What about the APU part? APU, if properly customized, could add another 1+ TFLOPS (AMD A10 5800K already has 736 GFLOPS) so you will end up with 2.5 TFLOPS aka "Samaritan certified" system.

 

[amstradcpc]

What about the APU part? APU, if properly customized, could add another 1+ TFLOPS (AMD A10 5800K already has 736 GFLOPS) so you will end up with 2.5 TFLOPS aka "Samaritan certified" system.

The last talk in beyond3d is not to hope more than 1,5 tflops GPU in any systems for country power limit regulations and cost.

 

[jeff_rigby]

The last talk in beyond3d is not to hope more than 1,5 tflops GPU in any systems for country power limit regulations and cost.

Total (max) power is not going to be regulated but idle and Streaming power will be regulated and that would have at least 1 Jaguar CPU package (2 watts) and the minimal GPU in the APU on all the time. So the GPU in the APU has to be small, in the .2-.4Tflops range and a secondary consideration for minimum would be the Compute power needed.

People are guessing but 1.5Tflops is in the target range, I suspect the Sun GPU (if used) plus APU is going to bring up the figure to around 1.8 and higher in turbo mode.

 

[jaosobno]

The last talk in beyond3d is not to hope more than 1,5 tflops GPU in any systems for country power limit regulations and cost.

I believe that you are refering to Proelite's post that said:

<16 cu gpu, 1-1.5 teraflops

You still have to take into account APU part into that equation. So you have 1-1.5 TFLOPS GPU (<16 CU sound like Radeon 7770-7850 level) and if you ask me at around 1 TFLOPS APU. And APU will certainly not sit idly by while GPU struggles with processing. So total power should be at least 2 TFLOPS. IMO, it's realistic to expect somwhere around 2.5 TFLOPS in the end for both systems regardless what rumors say about X720 being much more powerful.

Again, A10 is 736 GFLOPS and if that VG24/7 article is true it's being used as a base for development.

EDIT: just had a look at 5800K power draw, most articles say somwhere around 150W. If I remember correctly, that guy from chinese forum said X720 expected power draw will be around 285W (yes I know that this is a PS4 topic but both systems will probably be very similar when it comes to TDP). That leaves 130W for GPU and the rest of the system. Of course since APU will be A10 derivative (most likely featuring Jaguar cores) TDP should be smaller than 150W (probably somewhere around 100W). If you ask me, there will be plenty of watts available for GPU improvement.

 

[jeff_rigby]

I believe that you are refering to Proelite's post that said:



You still have to take into account APU part into that equation. So you have 1-1.5 TFLOPS GPU (<16 CU sound like Radeon 7770-7850 level) and if you ask me at least 1 TFLOPS APU. And APU will certainly not sit idly by while GPU struggles with processing. So total power should be at least 2 TFLOPS. IMO, it's realistic to expect somwhere around 2.5 TFLOPS in the end for both systems regardless what rumors say about X720 being much more powerful.

Again, A10 is 736 GFLOPS and if that VG24/7 article is true it's being used as a base for development.

Since Oct 8th because of the HWinfo.com post it's now (speculation) possible to determine the GPU part of APU + GPU that will be in the next generation game consoles. Totally eliminated from consideration is a A10 or any "desktop" APU, it's going to be a Jaguar APU, that's a lock as I've shown that Kaveri was delayed till 2014 because of issues with Yield. Jaguar and low power APUs on LPM silicon apparently have high yields, cost less as a result and have TDP heat that is compatible with being placed on a Silicon Interposer.

 

[jaosobno]

Since Oct 8th because of the HWinfo.com post it's now (speculation) possible to determine the GPU part of APU + GPU that will be in the next generation game consoles. Totally eliminated from consideration is a A10 or any "desktop" APU, it's going to be a Jaguar APU, that's a lock as I've shown that Kaveri was delayed till 2014 because of issues with Yield. Jaguar and low power APUs on LPM silicon apparently have high yields, cost less as a result and have TDP heat that is compatible with being placed on a Silicon Interposer.

Could you please refresh my memory regarding FLOPS numbers in APU/GPU part (if any numbers were mentioned at all)?

 

[systemfehler]

Power regulations only state that during standby/idle you must not consume more than x mW or something. Every modern CPU/GPU can easily achieve those figures no matter how powerfull they are. So if Sony wants a 6TFlop GPU they can have one no matter how those power regulations look like otherwise it would mean the end of consoles, PCs, phones, etc.

I doubt that Jaguar cores will drain much (after all they should be Temash plattform) power so for a 200W envelope you can get a GPU that is in the range of 100-120W that should easily hit more than 1.5TFlops. If the thermal baseline changes you have to adapt of course. What worries me more is the talk about slow DDR3-RAM and the little boost in memory bandwidth.

I personally still believe that 4GB fast memory (GDDR5, DDR4 + eDRAM, XDR2) + 7870 performance in a 8000 "form" (architecutre, power saving, etc.) should be the goal for late 2013 or early 2014. Anything significantly weaker could have been done at the Wii-U start. Of course I don't factor revolutionary new controllers and addons or the possibility that both Sony or MS could go with a small 100W ultra cheap console.

 

[1st Course]

My point exactly.
Alienware.
Windows.
1 TB HDD.
Large profit margins on hardware.

It's a 2.5 TFLOP machine that came out.. what.. last year?

There are several models for that thing, the 2.5 Tflops model (GTX 660) goes for like $1400 I believe.

Edit: apparently it also use a 330 watt power supply.

 

[amstradcpc]

Total (max) power is not going to be regulated but idle and Streaming power will be regulated and that would have at least 1 Jaguar CPU package (2 watts) and the minimal GPU in the APU on all the time. So the GPU in the APU has to be small, in the .2-.4Tflops range and a secondary consideration for minimum would be the Compute power needed.

People are guessing but 1.5Tflops is in the target range, I suspect the Sun GPU (if used) plus APU is going to bring up the figure to around 1.8 and higher in turbo mode.

I am not deep into it but in EU for example there is a full new regulation for desktop computers and the likes:
http://www.eup-network.de/fileadmin/user_upload/Computers-Draft-Regulation-subject-to-ISC.PDF

I have read in California there is/will be also some new regulation, and so on...

 

[-ImaginaryInsider]

The last talk in beyond3d is not to hope more than 1,5 tflops GPU in any systems for country power limit regulations and cost.

No, no one said anything about 1.5 teraflops being the absolute limit. We have one vague comment that pretty much states that because of power and cost, Durango isn't going to be the graphical powerhouse some hope it will be... It's completely up to interpretation what constitutes an unreasonable "graphical powerhouse".