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[Punchpudding]

Maybe it's just me but I usually look for the most well rounded deal (whether we're talking console or parts for a new PC). Whatever the ultimate specs are it won't be the full picture to me as interesting as it is. I've read as much on GAF that some users are willing to pay $600+ again on any new Sony console and I'm definitely not in that group for either company.

 

[George Claw M.D.]

Reading that SuperDAE tweet, it really doesn't even say whether or not Durango specs changed or not. So, it could just be a cleverly worded troll for all we know.

"Information is old" doesn't mean information is wrong.

 

[FordGTGuy]

Reading that SuperDAE tweet, it really doesn't even say whether or not Durango specs changed or not. So, it could just be a cleverly worded troll for all we know.

"Information is old" doesn't mean information is wrong.

Actually yes it does, saying certain information is old is a way of saying it is out of date or wrong.

If the information were the same it would not be old it would be up to date.

Nonetheless all rumors no substance.

He is referring to the gulf in performance from Orbis to Durango.

Something not major has probably changed.

Speculation within speculation, we really just don't know.

Maybe it's just me but I usually look for the most well rounded deal (whether we're talking console or parts for a new PC). Whatever the ultimate specs are it won't be the full picture to me as interesting as it is. I've read as much on GAF that some users are willing to pay $600+ again on any new Sony console and I'm definitely not in that group for either company.

If either the X720 or PS4 release at $600 or more the initial sales are not going to look good.

 

[Reiko]

Reading that SuperDAE tweet, it really doesn't even say whether or not Durango specs changed or not. So, it could just be a cleverly worded troll for all we know.

"Information is old" doesn't mean information is wrong.

He is referring to the gulf in performance from Orbis to Durango.

Something not major has probably changed.

 

[George Claw M.D.]

Actually yes it does, saying certain information is old is a way of saying it is out of date or wrong.

That's the common inference, yes. But if he was intentionally trolling, he could be playing at people's tendency to infer that, while not actually lying.

 

[Can Crusher]

Reading that SuperDAE tweet, it really doesn't even say whether or not Durango specs changed or not. So, it could just be a cleverly worded troll for all we know.

"Information is old" doesn't mean information is wrong.

We can always read whatever we want to read. The obvious interpretation is simple, he wasn't writing Shakespeare.

He could still be trolling, but saying that Orbis info came out after old Durango info and thus making it look a whole lot better, is pretty clear in its meaning.

 

[FordGTGuy]

That's the common inference, yes. But if he was intentionally trolling, he could be playing at people's tendency to infer that, while not actually lying.

Again speculation we have no evidence that he is trolling let alone he is telling the truth as far as he knows.

If he were going to troll I think he could've done a better job.

I know forums breed speculation by nature but us speculating on top of rumors only creates more rumors that circulate and create more speculation.

It's like when a story is told and after being told 10 times by different people it's a completely different story.

 

[spwolf]

We can always read whatever we want to read. The obvious interpretation is simple, he wasn't writing Shakespeare.

He could still be trolling, but saying that Orbis info came out after old Durango info and thus making it look a whole lot better, is pretty clear in its meaning.

so lets decide now if the power matters or not, since last few pages it started not to matter. Just so we know where we stand for when the real info comes out?

 

[Baconsammy]

Why would a guy that cared so little that he sold a dev unit on Ebay be scared to say what he actually believes to be true now? Now he respects an NDA? Color me skeptical.

 

[George Claw M.D.]

Again speculation we have no evidence that he is trolling let alone he is telling the truth as far as he knows.

Agreed, which is why I wonder why you were so quick to positively state his intentions. I simply stated his actual words made no claim as to whether the info was actually wrong or not, only that it was old. That's just a simple analysis of his chosen words. It could have been constructed to rile fanboys up, which it obviously has, or he's honestly hinting that things are indeed different. Not sure if people are twisting my post in their minds.

 

[Can Crusher]

so lets decide now if the power matters or not, since last few pages it started not to matter. Just so we know where we stand for when the real info comes out?

Power matters to tech enthusiasts, and it matters to the fanboys of the system with more power.

It isn't rocket science, see Ps2 to Ps3. Power didn't matter, and then it mattered.

 

[SlickShoesRUCrazy]

Why would a guy that cared so little that he sold a dev unit on Ebay be scared to say what he actually believes to be true now? Now he respects an NDA? Color me skeptical.

because the ms ninjas got to him in order to remove those dev kits from ebay.

 

[Uno Venova]

so lets decide now if the power matters or not, since last few pages it started not to matter. Just so we know where we stand for when the real info comes out?

Man you know how dat go.

 

[Reiko]

Power matters to tech enthusiasts, and it matters to the fanboys of the system with more power.

It isn't rocket science, see Ps2 to Ps3. Power didn't matter, and then it mattered.

Yeah.

PS2 post Dreamcast was graphics>gameplay. PS2 post Xbox,GC was gameplay>graphics.


Of course when a visually stunning PS2 title came out... That also flip flopped.

Silent Hill 3 or God of War 1/2 were the poster children for "Who needs next gen".

 

[FordGTGuy]

Agreed, which is why I wonder why you were so quick to positively state his intentions.

I'm just saying that the way he worded his statement is most commonly used to say certain information is out of date I'm not confirming what he said is true or not or if he even worded it correctly.

We can't get anything out of random speculation but we do have evidence of usage of expressions to figure out his most common intentions with the statement he made.

Why would a guy that cared so little that he sold a dev unit on Ebay be scared to say what he actually believes to be true now? Now he respects an NDA? Color me skeptical.

*random speculation* Could have been caught and threatened to lose his job. *random speculation*

Personally though I would think trying to sell a devkit would be grounds enough to lose his job on the spot.

 

[Codeblew]

Power matters to tech enthusiasts, and it matters to the fanboys of the system with more power.

It isn't rocket science, see Ps2 to Ps3. Power didn't matter, and then it mattered.

Well, with the PS2, by the time XBOX was released, the PS2 had already been out for almost 2 years. It didn't really matter that the XBOX was a bit more powerful because there were tons of awesome games already released or soon to be released.

 

[Can Crusher]

Well, with the PS2, by the time XBOX was released, the PS2 had already been out for almost 2 years. It didn't really matter that the XBOX was a bit more powerful because there were tons of awesome games already released or soon to be released.

Yeah, but when the Dreamcast had tons of awesome games graphics were the whole deal(upcoming Ps2).

Come on, it is the way it is.

 

[SneakyStephan]

Yeah, but when the Dreamcast had tons of awesome games graphics were the whole deal(upcoming Ps2).

Come on, it is the way it is.

But people actually waited for ps2... (on the promise of power AND games btw)
It's shameful that dreamcast bombed though, ffs. For its time and incredible price the dreamcast was a monster btw... First console to ever get arcade perfect ports and Sega rocked the hardware world back then with their arcade cabinets.

 

[Can Crusher]

But people actually waited for ps2... (on the promise of power AND games btw)
It's shameful that dreamcast bombed though, ffs. For its time and incredible price the dreamcast was a monster btw... First console to ever get arcade perfect ports and Sega rocked the hardware world back then with their arcade cabinets.

Yeah, PSX fans waited for a Ps2 because it was going to have better graphics. Then they didn't wait for a Xbox, or traded one for the other because graphics didn't matter anyway.

It's how loyal fan bases express themselves man. My favorite product is better because of this and that.

Dreamcast was ace. I remember playing quake 3 online on that thing man, on a 56kbs modem... Sega was living in the future.

 

[Reiko]

Yeah, PSX fans waited for a Ps2 because it was going to have better graphics. Then they didn't wait for a Xbox, or traded one for the other because graphics didn't matter anyway.

It's how loyal fan bases express themselves man. My favorite product is better because of this and that.

Dreamcast was ace. I remember playing quake 3 online on that thing man, on a 56kbs modem... Sega was living in the future.

Funny but true.

 

[SneakyStephan]

Yeah, PSX fans waited for a Ps2 because it was going to have better graphics. Then they didn't wait for a Xbox, or traded one for the other because graphics didn't matter anyway.

It's how loyal fan bases express themselves man. My favorite product is better because of this and that.

Dreamcast was ace. I remember playing quake 3 online on that thing man, on a 56kbs modem... Sega was living in the future.

I waited for ps2 (I wanted a dreamcast so bad but I couldn't afford both, I was 15 then or something, it took me a long time to save up for EU ps2 prices - 525 euros...-).
You know what I did when xbox came out? I traded my ps2 for one. (personally I have 0 brand loyalty, I'll dump whatever I'm using if I feel something else might be fun or is better or is more interesting)

I had like 25 ps2 games by the time xbox was released man... it took two years, how many people would be willing to lose their library like I did?
When people who waited for ps2 bought one, the xbox wasn't a twinkle in Microsoft's eye yet as far as the gamers were aware.

If they launched at the same time then xbox would have made ps2 tech look bad and things could have ended up a lot differently. (but they didn't, and the reason of the power gap was the 2 year tech progression gap...)
All my friends were pretty jealous of the xbox, it ended up at their houses more than at mine, but for them it was too late to switch and lose all their ps2 games.

It makes no sense to compare it to two consoles releasing at the same time (or within eachother's launch window for the sticklers)

 

[Can Crusher]

I waited for ps2 (I wanted a dreamcast so bad but I couldn't afford both, I was 15 then or something, it took me a long time to save up for EU ps2 prices - 525 euros...-).
You know what I did when xbox came out? I traded my ps2 for one. (personally I have 0 brand loyalty, I'll dump whatever I'm using if I feel something else might be fun or is better or is more interesting)

I had like 25 ps2 games by the time xbox was released man... it took two years, how many people would be willing to lose their library like I did?

If they launched at the same time then xbox would have made ps2 tech look bad and things could have ended up a lot differently.

I don't think you are getting the point I'm trying to make.

I'm not saying you belong to a certain loyal fan base, as far as you describe yourself you sound more tech enthusiast than anything.

Loyal fans wait and buy the system they were gonna buy anyway, and graphics for them will either matter or not depending on if they support the system with more powerful hardware or not.

See GC -> Wii.

 

[babyghost853]

Except I think it was a given Wii U was going cheap with cutting edge graphics technology.

No sane person would think Nintendo would be pulling a Gamecube with Wii U after the success of the Wii.

Guess that makes me insane.

 

[Timedog]

This seems as good a thread as any to ask: where did all these "secret sauce" comments come from? What does that mean and what are they referencing?[

 

[Pistolero]

I don't think you are getting the point I'm trying to make.

I'm not saying you are belong to a certain loyal fan base, as far as you describe yourself you sound more tech enthusiast than anything.

Loyal fans wait and buy the system they were gonna buy anyway, and graphics for them will either matter or not depending on if they support the system with more powerful hardware or not.

I don't think that loyalty had a major role in justifying the massive exhodus from the first PS to its successor. History's shown us again and again how volatile and fickle consumers are.
The PS2 succeeded because it was propelled by a phenomenal marketing campaign and backed by the support of every major publisher, at the detriment of an agonizing Sega, which, despite its great catalogue, made a niche product (Too arcadey, imo). The Xbox and GC were too late the party.

 

[artist]

Aegies claims Sony changed their specs in the summer of 2012 and they're believed to be ready for release this year.

And llhere shot that down saying nothing changed. And he (llhere) is the more reliable one between the two.

 

[SneakyStephan]

I don't think you are getting the point I'm trying to make.

I'm not saying you are belong to a certain loyal fan base, as far as you describe yourself you sound more tech enthusiast than anything.

Loyal fans wait and buy the system they were gonna buy anyway, and graphics for them will either matter or not depending on if they support the system with more powerful hardware or not.

See GC -> Wii.

If that were true then PS3 would have dominated the shit out of xbox360 this gen...
Loads of people were willing to pick up whatever is available.
Xbox 360 was there first so people went there. (+ it was way cheaper)

If ps3 launched at the same time things would probably look differently today but your argument is people are brand loyal and will wait.

I still see dreamcast as an anomaly in that respect, it should have done way better.. but playstation was too strong a name I guess, it certainly didn't repeat with the ps3. Things turned out so differently that gen and this gen, I don't see how you can draw any conclusions from it.

MS made a real name for themselves with the xbox 1 btw among core/enthusiast/early adopters, which is probably why xbox 360 took off pretty well.
People were skeptical of MS making a console with xbox 1 but it proved to be reliable and powerful. It catered to the core too in every way... built in HDD, you could run linux on it if you jailbroke it, play halo online through an early form of tungle etc, it had all kinds of cool shit going for it.

 

[Can Crusher]

I don't think that loyalty had a major role in justifying the massive exhodus from the first PS to its successor. History's shown us again and again how volatile and fickle consumers are.
The PS2 succeeded because it was propelled by a phenomenal marketing campaign, backed by the support of every major publisher, at the detriment of an agonizing Sega, which, despite its great catalogue, made a niche product (Too arcadey, imo). The Xbox and GC were too late the party.

If that were true then PS3 would have dominated the shit out of xbox360 this gen...
Loads of people were willing to pick up whatever is available.
Xbox 360 was there first so people went there. (+ it was way cheaper)

If ps3 launched at the same time things would probably look differently today but your argument is people are brand loyal and will wait.

Oh, I get it. Ok, just to get you guys on the right track...

so lets decide now if the power matters or not, since last few pages it started not to matter. Just so we know where we stand for when the real info comes out?

It was about this. It was about opinions of fan bases here on neogaf. It's not sales talk.

But yes Sneaky, the loyal fans did wait for the PS3. Not even the price of entry scared them off.

 

[Commanche Raisin Toast]

The guy apparently also sent Kotaku a 90 page document with specs for orbis dev kits, as of January this year.

Why didn't people pick on that? It says Orbis dev kits have 8 GB of system memory and 2.2 GB VRAM and bulldozer CPUs.

It also talks about the new controller.

He didn't send them the doc. He told them he had the doc and shared select bits of info with kotaku. It could have been complete bullshit.

 

[SneakyStephan]

Oh, I get it. Ok, just to get you guys on the right track...




It was about this. It was about opinions of fan bases here on neogaf. It's not sales talk.

But yes Sneaky, the loyal fans did wait for the PS3. Not even the price of entry scared them off.

Ah I thought you were one of those people who claim 'graphics have no effect just look at the xbox and the wii' as if that is some kind of proof (correlation =/= causation). I think it's silly for those people to draw conclusions based on different circumstances for a whole TWO samples (any mathematician would laugh them out of the room)

( and then that is usually the argument given for justifying shitty hardware)

OT: it would be fun to have people be accountable for their opinions and rationalisations though like spwolf suggested.
It's hard to have any reasonable discussion when a ton of people always change their tune depending on the circumstances. It would also stop those same people from always cockblocking any objective discussion or comparisons with these rationalisations. Then they could only fuck up a thread in one situation, it would basically halve the number of fanboy/trollposts

It would also serve to help take opinions and arguments more seriously then.

 

[osnake]

This might be a silly question but is it possible for next gen consoles to play this current gens games that play at 30 fps to play at 60 with next gen consoles?

 

[Agent Ironside]

And llhere shot that down saying nothing changed. And he (llhere) is the more reliable one between the two.

Yeah.

I don't know what think about the whole thing really. At first it's "Secret Sauce" (granted it still could be for all we know), then it's "Well... but things have changed you see"

The only thing I could see changing is clock speeds. What are you gonna do, bump the RAM up to 16GB?, Change the GPU? Fill up on more wizard jizz? You can only change so much this far into the crunch. Considering my contact says that the dev kits from MS have always intended on being final spec. I'm going with nothing significant has changed, if anything at all, as lherre has said.

 

[Proxy]

I might have misunderstood that.

 

[Can Crusher]

Most definitely.

You think the BC is gonna be magical and make the games run above their original framerate? I don't think so.

 

[Proxy]

You think the BC is gonna be magical and make the games run above their original framerate? I don't think so.

I misunderstood what he was asking.

 

[chubigans]

This might be a silly question but is it possible for next gen consoles to play this current gens games that play at 30 fps to play at 60 with next gen consoles?

There's always that consideration of how well BC will be emulated, if at all, with these consoles.

But if you're asking if you can pop in an old game that runs at 30fps into your Durango and play it at 60fps, then no, that's not likely. Timing in games can run at the framerate they're program at...one extreme example is LA Noire, which doesn't even run at 60fps for PC, because the face capturing was only recorded in 30fps.

 

[artist]

Yeah.

I don't know what think about the whole thing really. At first it's "Secret Sauce" (granted it still could be for all we know), then it's "Well... but things have changed you see"

The only thing I could see changing is clock speeds. What are you gonna do, bump the RAM up to 16GB?, Change the GPU? Fill up on more wizard jizz? You can only change so much this far into the crunch. Considering my contact says that the dev kits from MS have always intended on being final spec. I'm going with nothing significant has changed, if anything at all, as lherre has said.

The funny thing is that we're getting these supposed "insiders" coming up with these excuses but so far the publication leaks all point to Orbis being more powerful.

 

[Mindlog]

The funny thing is that we're getting these supposed "insiders" coming up with these excuses but so far the publication leaks all point to Orbis being more powerful.

All the publication leaks have been months behind what was discussed in our own speculation thread. The stuff discussed in the old speculation thread (back when Thuway was insistent on 2.5+ TF or bust) generally came true.

It's really weird

Spoiler

predictable

that so much hostile doubt is cast only on certain predictions after so many others have came true.

 

[artist]

All the publication leaks have been months behind what was discussed in our own speculation thread. The stuff discussed in the old speculation thread (back when Thuway was insistent on 2.5+ TF or bust) generally came true.

It's really weird

Spoiler

predictable

that so much hostile doubt is cast only on certain predictions after so many others have came true.

Nothing weird or predictable. I'll trust a dev on GAF any day of the week over this guy, who outside of having a really old first dev kit, hasnt done anything else to warrant his info as more up to date or genuine.

 

[Can Crusher]

Nothing weird or predictable. I'll trust a dev on GAF any day of the week over this guy, who outside of having a really old first dev kit, hasnt done anything else to warrant his info as more up to date or genuine.

But Ilherre says the difference between these systems is a wash. The general opinion based on leaked specs seems to indicate anything but.

 

[nib95]

But Ilherre says the difference between these systems is a wash. The general opinion based on leaked specs seems to indicate anything but.

Was this before or after the Orbis spec update? Either way, Lherre is the real deal, so we should probably pay attention. Unless the discrepancy was just between older dev kits, ie Durango's having 12gb of DDR3 vs only 2GB GDDR5 from Orbis.

 

[Can Crusher]

Was this before or after the Orbis spec update? Either way, Lherre is the real deal, so we should probably pay attention. Unless the discrepancy was just between older dev kits, ie Durango's having 12gb of DDR3 vs only 2GB GDDR5 from Orbis.

Ilherre made that comment like a month ago. Of course it was after Orbis got a spec bump.

He hasnt elaborated on why he thinks so and has used his posts sparingly.

Yeah, he hasn't said why. But just because he didn't say the means, doesn't mean he didn't mean the end. No reason to dance around it, something's gotta give.

If it's a wash, then we don't know the whole picture.

 

[artist]

But Ilherre says the difference between these systems is a wash. The general opinion based on leaked specs seems to indicate anything but.

He hasnt elaborated on why he thinks so and has used his posts sparingly.

 

[Reiko]

He hasnt elaborated on why he thinks so and has used his posts sparingly.

Because NDA

 

[Mindlog]

More than one 'real deal' source has hinted at that.

There it is.
Durango has HDMI pass-through. We know this.
Go back and read how many times the word 'Scalable' appears on reference slides.

Durango releasing with Crossfire support confirmed.
Send it in to, Kotaku.

Case closed.
Bring on the Steambox.

 

[nib95]

Ilherre made that comment like a month ago. Of course it was after Orbis got a spec bump.

I thought the new dev kits were sent out at the end of January? This year that is. Weren't the dev kits prior to that fitted with only 2GB's of video ram?


EDIT:

Yes, seems I was right. The Orbis dev kit prior to the January 2013 unit did in-fact only have 2.2GB of video ram. Which might explain Lherre's earlier comments.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=509625

That being the case, here's what we know is inside PS4 development kits—model # DVKT-KS000K—as of January 2013. As you'll see, some things have changed since earlier kits became available in March 2012.

System Memory: 8GB
Video Memory: 2.2 GB
CPU: 4x Dual-Core AMD64 "Bulldozer" (so, 8x cores)
GPU: AMD R10xx
Ports: 4x USB 3.0, 2x Ethernet
Drive: Blu-Ray
HDD: 160GB
Audio Output: HDMI & Optical, 2.0, 5.1 & 7.1 channels

 

[artist]

Yeah, he hasn't said why. But just because he didn't say the means, doesn't mean he didn't mean the end. No reason to dance around it, something's gotta give.

If it's a wash, then we don't know the whole picture.

I'm not saying he didnt mean it, just saying that he was quick to point out something that was inaccurate (Oh my god, we got super duper kits with wizard jizz now!).

You also need to consider it's much easier to say, thats wrong or its a wash than outing specifics as to why.

 

[Can Crusher]

I thought the new dev kits were sent out at the end of January? This year that is. Weren't the dev kits prior to that fitted with only 2GB's of video ram?

I'm just gonna use common sense and think he was comparing target specs, since his comments were in the context of the leaks we were getting.

EDIT:

Yes, seems I was right. The Orbis dev kit prior to the January 2013 unit did in-fact only have 2.2GB of video ram. Which might explain Lherre's earlier comments.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=509625

Yes. 8 Gb of system memory + 2 GB of Vram.

So what? What I said above, Sony made the change to target specs middle of last year, they didn't change it last month.

I'm not saying he didnt mean it, just saying that he was quick to point out something that was inaccurate (Oh my god, we got super duper kits with wizard jizz now!).

You also need to consider it's much easier to say, thats wrong or its a wash than outing specifics as to why.

Of course, he can't start talking about stuff that will maybe cost him his job.

 

[nib95]

I'm just gonna use common sense and think he was comparing target specs, since his comments were in the context of the leaks we were getting.

I wouldn't be so sure. He's a developer. At that point in time he'd have only been working on the dev kits as his angle on specs comparisons. I doubt Sony went around telling every dev exactly what their final specs would be. But who knows.

 

[Can Crusher]

I wouldn't be so sure. He's a developer. At that point in time he'd have only been working on the dev kits as his angle on specs comparisons. I doubt Sony went around telling every dev exactly what their final specs would be. But who knows.

Sorry man, that just sounds like grasping at straws.

You really think that devs would only know about 8 GB of system memory + 2 gb of Vram becoming 4 GB of GDDR5 when Sony delivered them those kits?

What about the whole "Sony put in 4 GB of GDDr5 because devs complained about memory amount" from last year?

Let's be coherent here. Drawing the least logical conclusion doesn't seem to make sense. Not to mention those "old" dev kits smoke the "new" durango dev kits. So I don't see how that would make them anymore of a wash.