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[Halo is Back]

Wow I just finished watching a documentary on the Vietnam War on Netflix and I never realized the incompetence from the high level military commanders and the war being sent into perpetual escalation by a president more concerned with his ego.

A great example would be military officials sending American troops to take random numbered hills, loosing over 100 U.S. soldiers and then abandon the hill within a week. The North Vietnam army would simply retake the hill and then the process would repeat over again.
Soldiers were often told to burn down villages and destroy property even though there were no enemy combatants in the area.

The commanding officer at the time Westmorland would measure the "success" of the war with body count. He told the president Johnson they would need to reach a "cross over point" to win, simply meaning that we were killing more than they could replace. Body count became an obsession.

The most baffiling part to me was before and early on when Johnson sent American troops to Vietnam he was repeatedly told privately by his advisors, intelligence, and the C.I.A that it would be a very difficult war to fight and success was not likely, "less then even" one said. A translator interviewed one captured NVA solider to give a report on the enemy and she wrote "we are fighting a determined enemy, victory will not come without a terrible cost". Many saw it was unwindable from the beginning.


In the end, the American military could never adapt to counter guerrilla warfare, while simultaneously making illogical decisions on the battlefield. All of this was perpetuated by a president who would not admit to making a mistake for many years and buying into the red scare for decades.

 

[DunDunDunpachi]

Which documentary did you watch? Just curious because I do enjoy a good documentary.

To me, Vietnam is an example of why we shouldn't play mercenary for our allies unless there is a very good reason to do so. The only reason why we were there is because the French lost control of their own colony and botched the implementation of a democratic government while abusing the populace. Yes, there was valid reason to resist communism but the communist encroachment wasn't taking place in a vacuum. The Vietnamese even sent (well... they were forcibly drafted) 100,000 soldiers to fight for the Allies in World War 1. I can only imagine why Vietnam got sick of French rule and by extension, American occupation...

 

[Halo is Back]

Which documentary did you watch? Just curious because I do enjoy a good documentary.

To me, Vietnam is an example of why we shouldn't play mercenary for our allies unless there is a very good reason to do so. The only reason why we were there is because the French lost control of their own colony and botched the implementation of a democratic government while abusing the populace. Yes, there was valid reason to resist communism but the communist encroachment wasn't taking place in a vacuum. The Vietnamese even sent (well... they were forcibly drafted) 100,000 soldiers to fight for the Allies in World War 1. I can only imagine why Vietnam got sick of French rule and by extension, American occupation...

Basically to them we were just another foreign invader. The only reason I saw to stay in Vietnam was to protect the people of South Vietnam from communist rule. Many people in Saigon and surrounding cities did not all sympathize with NVA ideals and government. Once the war was almost lost and the NVA invaded the South with the intention of capturing Saigon over 1 million South Vietnamese civilians tried to immigrate to America, so in that sense I did feel sorry for them they were so terrified of what the NVA would do to them. On the flip side though the south was being blown apart and war crimes were being committed by the Americans.

In reality we had no business being involved within another countries Civil War. It only makes things more complicated.

FYI: it was simply titled "The Vietnam War" on Netflix. Its really good but there are 10 episodes, with almost all of them 2 hours long so its quite a commitment.

 

[Cybrwzrd]

Vietnam war is also a good example of why communists needed to be purged from our government (and that McCarthy was right) and why the media shouldn't be on the battlefield filming our soldiers to make them look bad.

 

[Halo is Back]

Vietnam war is also a good example of why communists needed to be purged from our government (and that McCarthy was right) and why the media shouldn't be on the battlefield filming our soldiers to make them look bad.

People deserve to know the war their country is literally forcing them to fight. Doing away with the press would be against free speech and unconstitutional. We would have never won that war and I’m glad so many Americans protested to ending such a senseless war. In the end no one really won.

 

[Tesseract]

we could have won it but the measures required wouldn't be tolerated by most people

 

[#Phonepunk#]

watch Fog of War, really fascinating stuff, lots of interviews with Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara. he seemed to be quite regretful in his old age.

also the draft was a HUGE DEAL. if you were of age, you were required by law to go and fight. otherwise you could go to jail. there were students killed by National Guardsmen protesting this (Kent State). it's almost impossible to imagine any of that happening today without people throwing their hands up in utter despair but an entire generation lived that reality.

these days it is easier than ever to detach from the war, nobody has had to worry about mandatory service for decades.

 

[TylersProphecy4.0]

My dead (step) grandpa was a sergeant major in the military during vietnam. I shudder to think of the decisions he made during that time period that resulted in the death of many. An extreme pragmatist, that man. Also harsh with children. He very much treated my younger brother and I like adults rather than children. I learned respect and to act with manners or i got cracked in the dome with this big ring he used to have. I usually refuse to believe he would have wanted to send a bunch of soldiers to their death unless he saw no other options, but sometimes I just think that we'll never really know who people are, deep down inside. A huge impact on my life, that guy.

He also planned Kennedy's inauguration.

 

[Halo is Back]

we could have won it but the measures required wouldn't be tolerated by most people

I don’t think we could have ever won the war unless we were allowed to occupy Laso and Cambodia and invade North Vietnam to overthrow the government. But even then I guarantee you even after we “won” we would have been fighting rebels and guerrilla fighters forever. The Vietnamese people were very determined people who had already fought for independence for decades.

By the early 70s one commander said that discipline and morale was the lowest it had ever been in American history “I need to get my army out of Vietnam to save it” he remarked. Most combatants were draftees who did not want to be there including many officers. Simply put how can you ask your army to defeat an enemy willing to die for their freedom when you can’t even got your own troops to follow orders or even know what they we’re fighting for.

 

[Halo is Back]

My dead (step) grandpa was a sergeant major in the military during vietnam. I shudder to think of the decisions he made during that time period that resulted in the death of many. An extreme pragmatist, that man. Also harsh with children. He very much treated my younger brother and I like adults rather than children. I learned respect and to act with manners or i got cracked in the dome with this big ring he used to have. I usually refuse to believe he would have wanted to send a bunch of soldiers to their death unless he saw no other options, but sometimes I just think that we'll never really know who people are, deep down inside. A huge impact on my life, that guy.

He also planned Kennedy's inauguration.

Not all officers we bad or incompetent. I don’t doubt there were many brave soldiers who served in Vietnam. It was the chief in command, and top generals who had no plan of how to fight the war.

 

[TylersProphecy4.0]

Not all officers we bad or incompetent. I don’t doubt there were many brave soldiers who served in Vietnam. It was the chief in command, and top generals who had no plan of how to fight the war.

A sergeant major is the highest rank you could have in the army at the time (at least how it was explained to me at his funeral). Like I said, I shudder to think about the decisions he made.

Its so weird to think about the duality though. All I ever did with the guy, aside from mild child abuse, was so vanilla. Like, fishing and playing golf games on an apple ii. Everynight I spent at my grandparents home ended with him making us root beer floats. I love him very much still to this day but yeah...I have no idea what that man was capable of.

 

[Mossybrew]

OP is referring to the Ken Burns documentary, and yes it is lengthy but well worth watching, highly informative.

 

[Trojita]

In that documentary did they mention Project 100,000?

A controversial 1960s program by the United States Department of Defense (DoD) to recruit soldiers who would previously have been below military mental or medical standards. Project 100,000 was initiated by Defense Secretary Robert McNamara in October 1966 to meet the escalating manpower requirements of the American government's involvement in the Vietnam War. Inductees of the project died at higher rates than other Americans serving in Vietnam and following their service had lower incomes and higher rates of divorce than their non-veteran counterparts. The project was ended in December 1971 and has been the subject of controversy, especially during the manpower shortages of the Iraq War.

Project 100,000 soldiers included those unable to speak English, who had low mental aptitude, minor physical impairments and those who were slightly over- or underweight.

 

[Halo is Back]

In that documentary did they mention Project 100,000?

Not directly from what I remember but the rate at which black draftees were chosen and died on the battlefield were heavily against minorities and the higher class got to buy their way out. Stuff like that was mentioned.

 

[Secesh]

I had an older friend who was a mentor/father figure to me through college and after who worked as a pilot for Air America during Vietnam. He told me stories about how they were contracted for a while to deliver VC prisoners to off grid CIA bases for "interrogation". He said of all the things he had to do through WWII and in Asia that delivering those men to the CIA had to be the worst because not once did they ever pick those VC prisoners back up.

 

[Vade]

The United States got sucked into a war to protect old world territory for the French. The United States had no business after the First Indochina War was decided.

I understand it is sad that there were millions in the south who were not going to be treated well by the northern communists ,but we ended up supporting a fascist dictatorship that committed many war crimes too. The US also lost many young men to both death, disfigurement, disability, PTSD, and then those that did make it back to the United States were treated as war criminals by the hippies/liberals and the conservatives/(greatest generation) criticized them for ever complaining/not winning the war. One of the greatest shames this country has and should bare is how horrible the treatment of the Vietnam veterans has been. You are told/forced to fight in a foreign land without the your home nation supporting you, you are hated by both sides for being a foreigner, and you cannot 'win' the war by invading and crushing the enemy's homeland.

 

[Halo is Back]

The United States got sucked into a war to protect old world territory for the French. The United States had no business after the First Indochina War was decided.

I understand it is sad that there were millions in the south who were not going to be treated well by the northern communists ,but we ended up supporting a fascist dictatorship that committed many war crimes too. The US also lost many young men to both death, disfigurement, disability, PTSD, and then those that did make it back to the United States were treated as war criminals by the hippies/liberals and the conservatives/(greatest generation) criticized them for ever complaining/not winning the war. One of the greatest shames this country has and should bare is how horrible the treatment of the Vietnam veterans has been. You are told/forced to fight in a foreign land without the your home nation supporting you, you are hated by both sides for being a foreigner, and you cannot 'win' the war by invading and crushing the enemy's homeland.

It’s crazy because many of those vets didn’t even want to fight that war. I don’t doubt there were war crimes by our soldiers but the majority were not “baby killers”. So much death and destruction for a civil war we had no business with. I saw a lot of the similarities in the Iraq war. It seemed that we did not learn from our previous lesson.

 

[Deleted member 713885]

I admit, I should read up more on Nam.

What I do know is..
I worked with an older Vietnamese guy a few years back.

He was brilliant. Was missing some fingers. I never asked till one day he told me.

He was educated in the south, from a wealthy family. He went to college in for music. Was an accomplished pianist.

The communist came and stripped his family (father/mother/him and his siblings) of their home and money.

They cut his fingers off for playing western music.

In the middle of the night him, his wife, and brother fled to Cambodia. He lived in a refugee camp for a few years before coming to America.

He still teaches music, but cant play.

Has so many stories.

Also, incredible racist lol

 

[Ornlu]

In that documentary did they mention Project 100,000?

Super interesting; I had never heard of that. Thanks for posting it.

 

[haxan7]

According to Bruce Herschensohn, we lost because the newly Democrat controlled House and Senate after Nixon's departure used their powers to effectively defund the agreement we had made with the South to resupply them:

 

[Gp1]

Vietnam war was a war without commitment. The political brass never committed to win the war, but to contain communism without a escape plan. US could only solve the problem if they risk a open confrontation with China and USSR.

US never lost a battalion size engagement. But with North Vietnam supplying almost limitless manpower, without stopping China and USSR supply of armaments, and with NV choosing when to engage and when to flee (initiative), it was almost a pointless effort.

The only chance that i saw for US to win the war was to escalate the conflict (risking the direct involvement of China and USSR), stop the Ho Chi min trail in Laos and beyond and bomb Hanoi to bits much earlier than in Linebreaker 2.

 

[Punished Miku]

and why the media shouldn't be on the battlefield filming our soldiers to make them look bad.

The media absolutely should be there, doubly so if there is a draft. Shining light on what is going on is rarely a bad idea. Doing that even one time effectively ended the draft in the US.

 

[poppabk]

Which documentary did you watch? Just curious because I do enjoy a good documentary.

To me, Vietnam is an example of why we shouldn't play mercenary for our allies unless there is a very good reason to do so. The only reason why we were there is because the French lost control of their own colony and botched the implementation of a democratic government while abusing the populace. Yes, there was valid reason to resist communism but the communist encroachment wasn't taking place in a vacuum. The Vietnamese even sent (well... they were forcibly drafted) 100,000 soldiers to fight for the Allies in World War 1. I can only imagine why Vietnam got sick of French rule and by extension, American occupation...

That is a very interesting retcon of the Vietnam war. France had completely abandoned any claim to Vietnam before the war started, it was the US and the south vietnam leadership that refused to accept this. Generations of people brought up under french rule had definitely been battle hardened and primed for guerilla warfare against an occupier, but the French had no intention of occupying again and were definitely not pushing for US intervention.

 

[Halo is Back]

According to Bruce Herschensohn, we lost because the newly Democrat controlled House and Senate after Nixon's departure used their powers to effectively defund the agreement we had made with the South to resupply them:

I hate this clown channel. That was after we already pulled out of the country. Even if we gave them supplies the south would eventually fall and everyone knew it. I will admit that the south held out longer than I thought without support. The French lost and we lost because the NVA perfected their guerrilla warfare. Even if we controlled the Ho Chi Men trail they would have made another or tunnel their way. No one will admit it but the terrain and jungle was the NVA’s greatest strength.

 

[DunDunDunpachi]

That is a very interesting retcon of the Vietnam war. France had completely abandoned any claim to Vietnam before the war started, it was the US and the south vietnam leadership that refused to accept this. Generations of people brought up under french rule had definitely been battle hardened and primed for guerilla warfare against an occupier, but the French had no intention of occupying again and were definitely not pushing for US intervention.

First Indochina War - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Read up. The information is freely available.

USA sent "advisors" and this preceded our official military presence in the country by several years. The Vietnam War (a.k.a. the Second Indochina War) was a direct result of conflict between the southern gov't setup by France and the northern gov't. USA got stuck defending a crappy gov't that the French propped up.

And really, it was inevitable since it had been a colony of France's for decades prior to the breakout of the Vietnam war, as I indicated above when I mentioned the 100,000 Vietnamese conscripted against their will by the French gov't. The USA is surely to blame for all of its behavior in the Vietnam war, I am not trying to imply otherwise.

But if you are going to accuse me of retconning history, please bring a better argument to the table. I never claimed that France was trying to maintain its claim on Vietnam, only that they were responsible for the decades that led up to it.

 

[SpartanN92]

Those same hippie liberals back then that shouted “baby killers” are the same ones that support abortion today. Makes me sick.

 

[haxan7]

I hate this clown channel. That was after we already pulled out of the country. Even if we gave them supplies the south would eventually fall and everyone knew it. I will admit that the south held out longer than I thought without support. The French lost and we lost because the NVA perfected their guerrilla warfare. Even if we controlled the Ho Chi Men trail they would have made another or tunnel their way. No one will admit it but the terrain and jungle was the NVA’s greatest strength.

Why is PragerU a clown channel? I don’t know enough about Vietnam to comment on your other points.

 

[Halo is Back]

Why is PragerU a clown channel? I don’t know enough about Vietnam to comment on your other points.

Eh I was just heated. I don’t like them because they seem pretty biased to me. But once America pulled out its troops the North Vietnam army launched its assault all across South Vietnam almost taking the capital. They were saved by American air support. They at least needed the American air support to survive long term. Nixon also promised that to him but it would undo the peace established and risk relations that just improved with the USSR and China

 

[Winter John]

You should watch the entire series first so that you can understand why it turned out the way it did. In short, Vietnam was a proxy war between the U.S and Russia.

"The commanding officer at the time Westmorland would measure the "success" of the war with body count."

This isn't strictly true. He was convinced a war of attrition was the only way to beat the North Vietnamese but he couldn't get the manpower or political support he needed to carry out his plans. So he began using the bodycounts from skirmishes as an indicator of success in hopes of persuading the South Vietnamese and Johnson to support him.

Anyway, Ken Burn's doc is well worth watching all the way through

 

[Halo is Back]

You should watch the entire series first so that you can understand why it turned out the way it did. In short, Vietnam was a proxy war between the U.S and Russia.

"The commanding officer at the time Westmorland would measure the "success" of the war with body count."

This isn't strictly true. He was convinced a war of attrition was the only way to beat the North Vietnamese but he couldn't get the manpower or political support he needed to carry out his plans. So he began using the bodycounts from skirmishes as an indicator of success in hopes of persuading the South Vietnamese and Johnson to support him.

Anyway, Ken Burn's doc is well worth watching all the way through

I did and my point still stands. That is what an attrition war is. Outlasting your enemy, killing them more than they are killing you consistently but yet the NVA were still capable of mounting a large scale counter attack multiple times in the war. This strategy is stupid in several ways.

1. The NVA were readily supplied by both the USSR AND China. They were never going to run out of resources. If the NVA did not have another superpower backing them then yea it might have worked.

2. The thick jungle terrain was the greatest strength of the NVA. They were able to run circles around the Americans and almost every attack was initiated by the NVA.

3. The commander of the NVA famously said "My army will be everywhere and nowhere". They mastered the art of Guerrilla warfare. They were always going to wear down the American morale. The gross underestimation of the determination of the NVA was a key part of their failure even after they were warned about it.

 

[Gp1]

1. The NVA were readily supplied by both the USSR AND China. They were never going to run out of resources. If the NVA did not have another superpower backing them then yea it might have worked.

2. The thick jungle terrain was the greatest strength of the NVA. They were able to run circles around the Americans and almost every attack was initiated by the NVA.

3. The commander of the NVA famously said "My army will be everywhere and nowhere". They mastered the art of Guerrilla warfare. They were always going to wear down the American morale. The gross underestimation of the determination of the NVA was a key part of their failure even after they were warned about it.

And every major counter attack (especially the tet offensive) was a military failure. The military were in a sort of short leash so they recurred to the "positive indicators" (body count) as a measure of sucess.

1. Because the politicians didn't allowed bombing campaigns against strategic target in Hanoi and Haiphong (and the northern territories in general) until much later into the 70's. Haiphong harbor were open during almost the entire war supplying NVA. The NVA would be broken much earlier if they interdict into the north.

2/3 Disrupting logistics and HCM trail itself would help a lot in those points.

 

[Tesseract]

sadly, there's only a handful of decent commanders left

 

[Halo is Back]

And every major counter attack (especially the tet offensive) was a military failure. The military were in a sort of short leash so they recurred to the "positive indicators" (body count) as a measure of sucess.

1. Because the politicians didn't allowed bombing campaigns against strategic target in Hanoi and Haiphong (and the northern territories in general) until much later into the 70's. Haiphong harbor were open during almost the entire war supplying NVA. The NVA would be broken much earlier if they interdict into the north.

2/3 Disrupting logistics and HCM trail itself would help a lot in those points.

But that would require America securing both the harbor and the HCM tail. In the doc a massive army of women and children would constantly rebuild the road. Even if the Americans were to secure the HMC and occupy it they would just create more trails and tunnels in South Vietnam. I’m not saying it was completely impossible but it would require almost 1 million troops an invasion into NV and Laso and Cambodia. The sacrifice would be too great and worsen relations with other super powers and our military was very disinterested in fighting a war they had no idea why they were fighting for in the first place vs and enemy that is dedicated to the end.
Each Tet offensive is as a failure because they kept trying to fight conventionally against the Americans yet every time they still had the number of troops to back it up

 

[-Minsc-]

Read about the first half of posts here. Very enlightening.

 

[poppabk]

First Indochina War - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Read up. The information is freely available.

USA sent "advisors" and this preceded our official military presence in the country by several years. The Vietnam War (a.k.a. the Second Indochina War) was a direct result of conflict between the southern gov't setup by France and the northern gov't. USA got stuck defending a crappy gov't that the French propped up.

And really, it was inevitable since it had been a colony of France's for decades prior to the breakout of the Vietnam war, as I indicated above when I mentioned the 100,000 Vietnamese conscripted against their will by the French gov't. The USA is surely to blame for all of its behavior in the Vietnam war, I am not trying to imply otherwise.

But if you are going to accuse me of retconning history, please bring a better argument to the table. I never claimed that France was trying to maintain its claim on Vietnam, only that they were responsible for the decades that led up to it.

That the French were partly responsible for the state of Vietnam prior to the Vietnam war is not in question (although the USSR and China have a significant share of that). That is a vastly different claim to the one you initially made that the only reason the US was in Vietnam was to act as mercenaries for the French. Even if you accept that contentious claim, it has nothing to do with the Vietnam war, which was directly the result of US interests and the US refusing to accept the agreement that allowed France to withdraw from the region, which would make it a pretty terrible example of why the US shouldn't act as mercenaries for it's allies.

 

[Gp1]

But that would require America securing both the harbor and the HCM tail. In the doc a massive army of women and children would constantly rebuild the road. Even if the Americans were to secure the HMC and occupy it they would just create more trails and tunnels in South Vietnam. I’m not saying it was completely impossible but it would require almost 1 million troops an invasion into NV and Laso and Cambodia.

Not necessarily, bombing hanoi and haiphong could dryed at least part of the strategic importance of the trail, could disrupt NVA leadership, and in part could put NVA on defense.

 

[Cleared_Hot]

When everyone (liberal media) went apeshit over Trump "abandoning" the Kurds that we apparently oh-so-dearly cared about (newsflash, we never fucking left Syria, and liberals already completely forgot about it) it was a good moment for liberals to say "hey this is great... Remember Vietnam?!" Because if we left it to all the so-called experts who were also claiming we were abandoning people, we would've never left Vietnam!