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[Ferrio]

As I said earlier not all of them. St Johns Wort works for one.

 

[Trojita]

The "fakes" referred to only the herbal supplements listed though, not actual synthesized vitamins. Herbals are by and large useless bullshit.

That statement is bullshit and only continues to perpetuate the thought that things are only cured by synthetically created drugs.

 

[Freshmaker]

Anyone have a recommendation for good placebos? I want to make sure it really does nothing.

Send me $30 via Paypal, and I'll transmit harmonious energies to you while you sleep.

 

[Kinitari]

That statement is bullshit and only continues to perpetuate the thought that things are only cured by synthetically created drugs.

I don't know if you're serious or not, but it got me thinking - I wonder if anything is actually -cured- by non-synthetic drugs. I know very few things are cured by them, but I can't think of anything that is cured via 'natural remedies'.

I mean, there are things like pain relief from chewing willow bark, for example - but is there anything that acts like an antibiotic, for example (one of the only synthetic drugs that actually cures stuff as far as I know).

 

[PumpkinSpice]

That statement is bullshit and only continues to perpetuate the thought that things are only cured by synthetically created drugs.

I really don't understand why people think like this. Do they think the thousands of years people brewed willow bark tea was for nothing? Or all the herbs used (and still used) for calming or analgesic effects were just fake? Or do they pretend opium never existed?

 

[M.W.]

I don't know if you're serious or not, but it got me thinking - I wonder if anything is actually -cured- by non-synthetic drugs. I know very few things are cured by them, but I can't think of anything that is cured via 'natural remedies'.

I mean, there are things like pain relief from chewing willow bark, for example - but is there anything that acts like an antibiotic, for example (one of the only synthetic drugs that actually cures stuff as far as I know).

Mushrooms (AHCC) do wonders for cancer patients. Vitamin B17 as well. I believe that comes from apricot seeds. Look up Paul Stamets. He's the mushroom guru.

 

[Zophar]

I really don't understand why people think like this. Do they think the thousands of years people brewed willow bark tea was for nothing? Or all the herbs used (and still used) for calming or analgesic effects were just fake? Or do they pretend opium never existed?

Just because people did it in the past doesn't mean it worked. In fact it's damming in many ways because we have the scientific method and other technologic apparatuses that come with an advanced civilization to help us determine the usefulness of medicines.

Also, we can create better, more stable, and more controlled medicines using modern science.

 

[Freshmaker]

As I said earlier not all of them. St Johns Wort works for one.

The herbs do actually do stuff. Willow bark = aspirin etc.

I do question the validity of herbal efficacy from people that herbally self medicate themselves however. That doesn't seem like a good idea.

The fact the the herbs can do stuff to you means that interactions and unintended side effects etc can happen just going in YOLO.

 

[lenovox1]

That's why you eat real food.

I know, right?

It's crazy to me, but not at all surprising. Stuff like garlic, ginko bilboa, ginseng, enchinacea... That shit is already cheap! And they're putting even cheaper shit in the capsules?

 

[Zophar]

The herbs do actually do stuff. Willow bark = aspirin etc.

Right- there is already a proven, synthesized, superior solution on the market.

 

[lenovox1]

Except it was the NY State attorney's office that found this and not the FDA... off of a NYT article no less.

He wasn't implying the FDA had a hand in this. He was just saying that this is why there should be government regulation on these types of products and including the FDA as an example.

And this is in the FTC's purview, but they're not going to be food or drug testing as I doubt they have the capabilities.

Big Mac is expensive but have you looked at the dollar menu? If you're determined you could feed a family of 5 off the dollar menu for less than the cost of a big mac.

Edit: Also many would argue eating a sirloin isn't healthy eating at all.

I feel like I should point out that a Big Mac meal is $5 a serving before tax.

 

[captive]

Right- there is already a proven, synthesized, superior solution on the market.

You missed his point.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

Unregulated supplement market continues to fucking suck.

Goddamn Mel Gibson

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_F_ZZvdHqPM

 

[Jak140]

I don't know if you're serious or not, but it got me thinking - I wonder if anything is actually -cured- by non-synthetic drugs. I know very few things are cured by them, but I can't think of anything that is cured via 'natural remedies'.

I mean, there are things like pain relief from chewing willow bark, for example - but is there anything that acts like an antibiotic, for example (one of the only synthetic drugs that actually cures stuff as far as I know).

Umm, penicillin? Before modern semisynthetic antibiotics, antibiotics were all found in nature. Even the modern ones are mostly just modifications of those found existing naturally.

 

[Nudull]

Unregulated supplement market continues to fucking suck.

Goddamn Mel Gibson

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_F_ZZvdHqPM

Still blows my mind that such a commercial existed. How stupid are we?

 

[Quixzlizx]

Well the diet is mostly up to you, and yes I agree that it varies across different cultures and classes, and people have been used to that, but who can honestly prove that all these pills are actually beneficial.

Apparently not the FDA.

 

[Trojita]

Umm, penicillin? Before modern semisynthetic antibiotics, antibiotics were all found in nature.

Came back to say this, but you already beat me.

You generally aren't going to have a lot of studies showing the efficacy of things found in nature because their isn't a way to patent these things or control the market easily. Synthetics are patentable. Companies provide funding and influence research because there is money to be made. For fucks sake they are making synthetic THC in Japan even though natural THC and marijuana is legal. The synthetic THC is protected by patent laws.

 

[PumpkinSpice]

To be clear, I don't think you're going to find an herbal supplement that actually acts to kill bacteria or viral infections. You won't find an herbal supplement that cures cancer.

But there are plenty of things you can do with herbal medication. St Johns wort works as an antidepressant. Plenty of calming herbs like passion flower and chamomile work for anxiety. Chamomile and others are also great to help you feel sleepy, or you could just take a melatonin supplement; this works for insomnia.

There are also herbal supplements that work well as blood thinners, analgesic herbs for pain management, and more.

It's not a placebo. It might not be as good as proscription medicine, but in many cases its cheaper and easier to access (you can even order them online). In some cases though herbal supplements have the same intended effect as proscription medicine but with fewer side effects.

 

[poppabk]

I don't know if you're serious or not, but it got me thinking - I wonder if anything is actually -cured- by non-synthetic drugs. I know very few things are cured by them, but I can't think of anything that is cured via 'natural remedies'.

I mean, there are things like pain relief from chewing willow bark, for example - but is there anything that acts like an antibiotic, for example (one of the only synthetic drugs that actually cures stuff as far as I know).

A large number of drugs (maybe a majority) are non-synthetic, semi synthetic or are a synthesized version of the exact same molecule that exists in nature. Look up something like taxol for example. You are falling into the same trap as the alternative medicine people in thinking that 'drug', 'chemical' etc mean non-natural. All the xxxx-imab drugs for example are antibodies which are 99 - 100% 'natural'.

 

[Zophar]

Came back to say this, but you already beat me.

You generally aren't going to have a lot of studies showing the efficacy of things found in nature because their isn't a way to patent these things or control the market easily. Synthetics are patentable. Companies provide funding and influence research because there is money to be made. For fucks sake they are making synthetic THC in Japan even though natural THC and marijuana is legal. The synthetic THC is protected by patent laws.

Conspiratorial nonsense. Medical universities live and die on their research. This is literally the reason we have penicillin and aspirin and countless other medicine.

 

[BobLoblaw]

The FDA is so worthless I think we need actually need to start over. Give enforcement to a different agency.

Or give the FDA more money. There are countless "supplments" out there that never get tested and are sold by the millions. The least we can do is set up some sort of approval process for "supplements." Now you could put poop ashes in a pill and call it "Vitamin P" and it would sell.

 

[poppabk]

Came back to say this, but you already beat me.

You generally aren't going to have a lot of studies showing the efficacy of things found in nature because their isn't a way to patent these things or control the market easily. Synthetics are patentable. Companies provide funding and influence research because there is money to be made. For fucks sake they are making synthetic THC in Japan even though natural THC and marijuana is legal. The synthetic THC is protected by patent laws.

This is completely wrong. Of course you can patent natural things.

 

[Kinitari]

Umm, penicillin? Before modern semisynthetic antibiotics, antibiotics were all found in nature. Even the modern ones are mostly just modifications of those found existing naturally.

A large number of drugs (maybe a majority) are non-synthetic, semi synthetic or are a synthesized version of the exact same molecule that exists in nature. Look up something like taxol for example. You are falling into the same trap as the alternative medicine people in thinking that 'drug', 'chemical' etc mean non-natural. All the xxxx-imab drugs for example are antibodies which are 99 - 100% 'natural'.

I realized that antibiotics are modifications of things found in nature - I realize that most medicine is this actually - but penicillin was never like an herbal remedy. That's what I meant, which is why I juxtaposed it with willow bark. But when I say 'cure' I mean 'cure'. How many medicines out there really cure anything? Of those, how many of these cures existed/exist as herbal remedies?

To be clear, I don't think you're going to find an herbal supplement that actually acts to kill bacteria or viral infections. You won't find an herbal supplement that cures cancer.

But there are plenty of things you can do with herbal medication. St Johns wort works as an antidepressant. Plenty of calming herbs like passion flower and chamomile work for anxiety. Chamomile and others are also great to help you feel sleepy, or you could just take a melatonin supplement; this works for insomnia.

There are also herbal supplements that work well as blood thinners, analgesic herbs for pain management, and more.

It's not a placebo. It might not be as good as proscription medicine, but in many cases its cheaper and easier to access (you can even order them online). In some cases though herbal supplements have the same intended effect as proscription medicine but with fewer side effects.

I hoped my inclusion of 'willow bark' in my original post would highlight that I understand that herbal products can and do have real effects on our bodies. My focus was mostly on the 'cure' stuff - which I think you picked up on.

 

[ElectricThunder]

Whole industry needs to be aggressively dismantled and began anew with all of this cruft eliminated---it should be entirely possible to conduct it all properly and run the modern day snakeoil salesmen mucking it up right on out same as other fraudsters have no place especially in matters of the public health and well being.

There's tons of money being made off of taking advantage of folks and damning the consequences though...so the outlook in the near future is rather bleak.

 

[Trojita]

Conspiratorial nonsense. Medical universities live and die on their research. This is literally the reason we have penicillin and aspirin and countless other medicine.

You are espousing medicine that was discovered before the 1900's. The landscape of pharmaceutical companies and Universities have changed greatly in just the last 40 years. You are being foolish.

You literally use aspirin to try and prove a point even though it came from the Willow Tree, when previously you said herbs were bullshit even though they are both plants with medicinal properties.

 

[Zophar]

You are espousing medicine that was discovered before the 1900's. The landscape of pharmaceutical companies and Universities have changed greatly in just the last 40 years. You are being foolish. You literally use aspirin to try and prove a point even though it came from the Willow Tree, when previously you said herbs were bullshit even though they are both plants with medicinal properties.

Oh please. Peer reviewed research on naturally occurring chemical compounds and pharmacology abounds. Open up JSTOR and enlighten yourself.

And pay attention to the context of my posts: if herbal remedies have actual properties, a superior synthesized alternative (you know, medicine) exists. You're throwing your money away on expensive urine.

 

[Kinitari]

You are espousing medicine that was discovered before the 1900's. The landscape of pharmaceutical companies and Universities have changed greatly in just the last 40 years. You are being foolish.

Knowing my posts, it's probably not shocking that I agree with him - but let me tell you why.

Generally, synthesizing medicines provide you with the exact components you need for your medicine - as opposed to the whole kit and kaboodle that you get from taking the herb whole, or even refining it with a mortar or a kettle or whatever. Further, when you understand the molecular compound and why it does what it does, you can take that further with the scientific method and make better versions - significantly harder to do that by just breeding new plants. Finally, it's easier to mass produce something synthetic.

Patenting these things also makes sense considering the hundreds of millions/billions of research that go into each drug. You don't want to spend that time and money and not at least have a headstart on it's usage.

 

[Wolfgunblood Garopa]

This has been going on forever. Republicans in Congress have been covering for the supplement industry so that they can keep misleading and ripping people off year after year.

 

[BabyFaceKillah]

WalMart and gnc I'm not surprised.

 

[DonasaurusRex]

The "fakes" referred to only the herbal supplements listed though, not actual synthesized vitamins. Herbals are by and large useless bullshit.

hey if you've got the research to back that up more power to ya, can't say i've looked into every root that you're gonna find in a supplements aisle.

 

[Trojita]

Knowing my posts, it's probably not shocking that I agree with him - but let me tell you why.

Generally, synthesizing medicines provide you with the exact components you need for your medicine - as opposed to the whole kit and kaboodle that you get from taking the herb whole, or even refining it with a mortar or a kettle or whatever. Further, when you understand the molecular compound and why it does what it does, you can take that further with the scientific method and make better versions - significantly harder to do that by just breeding new plants. Finally, it's easier to mass produce something synthetic.

Patenting these things also makes sense considering the hundreds of millions/billions of research that go into each drug. You don't want to spend that time and money and not at least have a headstart on it's usage.

The latter paragraph is exactly what I was talking about. I took issue with him saying herbals are bullshit even though they have medicinal properties.

This is completely wrong. Of course you can patent natural things.

It is very hard to patent a natural occurring chemical that will stand up in court.

 

[Zophar]

The latter paragraph is exactly what I was talking about. I took issue with him saying herbals are bullshit even though they have medicinal properties.

Herbals *are* bullshit. Instead of chewing on bark, try aspirin. It's only 99 cents at the corner store.

 

[Zophar]

It is very hard to patent a natural occurring chemical that will stand up in court.

About that:
http://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/bayer-patents-aspirin

 

[Enco]

A lot of drugs come from plants and nature.

BUT, these compounds are generally extremely complex and so are (1) hard to make and (2) open to having lots of side effects and interactions.

St Johns Wort is popular but it interacts with a shitload of other medications and can cause serious problems. It's also dodgy in its effectiveness.

It's best to stick with the real drugs. Many are based on the herbal stuff but have been modified so the crap is minimised.

 

[Trojita]

Herbals *are* bullshit. Instead of chewing on bark, try aspirin. It's only 99 cents at the corner store.

I have a problem with someone equating something natural as bullshit just because the active ingredient hasn't been extracted. We have aspirin now because people realized the bark had a medicinal property. Rhodiola Rosea still hasn't had an active ingredient extracted or synthezised, yet it has fatigue relieving and cognitive activity increasing effects. You would probably tell me it is bullshit though apparently.

About that:
http://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/bayer-patents-aspirin

You really don't think I know about Bayers patent? It happening once doesn't make it a universal truth. If you honestly think I could extract THC out of marijuana and have a court proof patent on THC, you'd be crazy (in a country where such is legal).

 

[Zophar]

A lot of drugs come from plants and nature.

BUT, these compounds are generally extremely complex and so are (1) hard to make and (2) open to having lots of side effects and interactions.

St Johns Wort is popular but it interacts with a shitload of other medications and can cause serious problems. It's also dodgy in its effectiveness.

It's best to stick with the real drugs. Many are based on the herbal stuff but have been modified so the crap is minimised.

This is basically what I've been trying to argue. Cheers~

 

[Zophar]

I have a problem with someone equating something natural as bullshit just because the active ingredient hasn't been extracted. We have aspirin now because people realized the bark had a medicinal property. Rhodiola Rosea still hasn't had an active ingredient extracted or synthezised, yet it has fatigue relieving and cognitive activity increasing effects. You would probably tell me it is bullshit though apparently.

Until it can be demonstrated effective in a triple blind study versus a placebo *and* a proven treatment, and that the chemical compound responsible for it can be identified, yes.

edit: the hell does "cognitive activity increasing effects" actually mean?

 

[Kinitari]

I have a problem with someone equating something natural as bullshit just because the active ingredient hasn't been extracted. We have aspirin now because people realized the bark had a medicinal property. Rhodiola Rosea still hasn't had an active ingredient extracted or synthezised, yet it has fatigue relieving and cognitive activity increasing effects. You would probably tell me it is bullshit though apparently.

Well...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhodiola_rosea#Phytochemicals_and_health_effects

Research regarding R. rosea efficacy is contradictory. While some evidence suggests that the herb may be helpful for enhancing physical performance and alleviating mental fatigue, methodological flaws limit accurate assessment of efficacy. A rigorously-designed well reported RCT that minimizes bias is needed to determine true efficacy of R. rosea for fatigue..[15]

Scientists agree that willow bark gives you pain relief, I don't think they're on board with Rhodiola though.

 

[PumpkinSpice]

St Johns Wort is popular but it interacts with a shitload of other medications and can cause serious problems. It's also dodgy in its effectiveness.

It's best to stick with the real drugs. Many are based on the herbal stuff but have been modified so the crap is minimised.

It only interacts because it affects serotonin levels. Any "real drug" SSRI will do that.

 

[Trojita]

Well...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhodiola_rosea#Phytochemicals_and_health_effects



Scientists agree that willow bark gives you pain relief, I don't think they're on board with Rhodiola though.

Because no one is doing research on it doesn't mean it doesn't work. The limited number of studies calls it into question. There haven't been any studies I've seen that refute its improvement on the experiment group. More research needs to be done. I'd be very interested in research done on the Maca root. I'd honestly like to know if it does anything or just has essential minerals in it. Apparently it helps men with libido problems and women with hot flashes, but I've only seen like two studies done on the stuff.

I'm not sure what your point is exactly.

 

[Trojita]

It only interacts because it affects serotonin levels. Any "real drug" SSRI will do that.

SSRI interactions are no joke. You can die from that.

 

[Zophar]

Because no one is doing research on it doesn't mean it doesn't work. The limited number of studies calls it into question.

This is fallacious reasoning- the absence of evidence is not evidence. If a proven treatment already exists there's little reason to chance it on an unknown quantity.

 

[Enco]

It only interacts because it affects serotonin levels. Any "real drug" SSRI will do that.

Eh? No one said 'real drugs' don't have interactions.

But people take St John's and think they're perfectly fine because it's natural. It's a load of nonsense and can be dangerous. Especially when patients don't feel the need to list it when asked about what medications they're on.

edit: oh and it's more than increasing serotonin levels that's the problem. By interaction I mean it affects other drugs, and can lead to toxicity. We don't know exactly how it works anyway.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

Still blows my mind that such a commercial existed. How stupid are we?

That media campaign was apparently incredibly effective. So, very stupid as it turns out!

 

[Kinitari]

Because no one is doing research on it doesn't mean it doesn't work. The limited number of studies calls it into question. There haven't been any studies I've seen that refute its improvement on the experiment group. More research needs to be done. I'd be very interested in research done on the Maca root. I'd honestly like to know if it does anything or just has essential minerals in it. Apparently it helps men with libido problems and women with hot flashes, but I've only seen like two studies done on the stuff.

I'm not sure what your point is exactly.

My point was mostly that this particular herb, one I've heard about - isn't really clearly helping anyone. It might, it's still a mystery - and I am sure people will look into it. But it's potential improvements are vague and hard to pin down, and it's too premature (in my opinion) to say it has any effect outside of placebo.

That being said, lets assume it does have an effect - the researches that figure out exactly what that effect is, what the compound is that is creating this effect and are able to safely increase potency and mass produce - do you think they should be able to patent this final product? Would you use this final product over just the herb itself?

 

[Trojita]

This is fallacious reasoning- the absence of evidence is not evidence. If a proven treatment already exists there's little reason to chance it on an unknown quantity.

Herbs are proven to have active ingredients that are medicinal. You say Herbs are bullshit. Your fallacious reasoning is outstanding.

 

[Zophar]

Herbs are proven to have active ingredients that are medicinal. You say Herbs are bullshit. Your fallacious reasoning is outstanding.

Reading comprehension is for chumps, I guess. *sigh*

 

[Kinitari]

Herbs are proven to have active ingredients that are medicinal. You say Herbs are bullshit. Your fallacious reasoning is outstanding.

I think he's clarified, and it's something I would agree on as well. Any particular herb that has a proven (and I mean proven) medical effect has most likely already been turned into a more effective medication. Why would you use the less effective version? That would be 'bullshit', as Zophar described it.

 

[PumpkinSpice]

I think he's clarified, and it's something I would agree on as well. Any particular herb that has a proven (and I mean proven) medical effect has most likely already been turned into a more effective medication. Why would you use the less effective version? That would be 'bullshit', as Zophar described it.

There are also a lot of people (especially in the US) who can't afford to go to the doctor to get proscriptions, and can't afford the cost of proscription medicine. There are a surprisingly huge number of people who rely on OTC drugs, herbal supplements, and fish antibiotics in order to get by.

.

 

[Zophar]

I think he's clarified, and it's something I would agree on as well. Any particular herb that has a proven (and I mean proven) medical effect has most likely already been turned into a more effective medication. Why would you use the less effective version? That would be 'bullshit', as Zophar described it.

Right. I can dig out a tunnel with a shoe over twenty years, or I can backhoe it out in a week. Just because the shoe "works" doesn't mean it isn't a useless solution to a problem better solved through other means.