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[Trojita]

My point was mostly that this particular herb, one I've heard about - isn't really clearly helping anyone. It might, it's still a mystery - and I am sure people will look into it. But it's potential improvements are vague and hard to pin down, and it's too premature (in my opinion) to say it has any effect outside of placebo.

That being said, lets assume it does have an effect - the researches that figure out exactly what that effect is, what the compound is that is creating this effect and are able to safely increase potency and mass produce - do you think they should be able to patent this final product? Would you use this final product over just the herb itself?

I'm going to be honest and say I'm conflicted about patenting something natural occuring in this day and age. Having a competitive advantage from trade secrets and having an infrastructure in place is a bit different.

The question is whether potency increasing would even have a noticeable affect without having side affects as well. The limited amount of studies indicate more of rosea doesn't increase the perceived affects. If the final product is demonstrably better through testing of both the herb and the final product, then I'd probably use the final product.

I have a problem with the notion of herbs being bullshit when ingredients have been extracted from them that shaped modern medicine as we know it. There are still many herbs out there that have noticeable affects that haven't had studies done on them. I'm not talking about some mythical cure herb deep in the rain forest or anything either.

 

[Trojita]

Right. I can dig out a tunnel with a shoe over twenty years, or I can backhoe it out in a week. Just because the shoe "works" doesn't mean it isn't a useless solution to a problem better solved through other means.

That is a terrible analogy.

 

[DOWN]

OP bolded everything but the part where the Harvard professor doesn't believe the results are necessarily reliable. I'm curious if there's a better way to test those.

 

[A Fish Aficionado]

I think he's clarified, and it's something I would agree on as well. Any particular herb that has a proven (and I mean proven) medical effect has most likely already been turned into a more effective medication. Why would you use the less effective version? That would be 'bullshit', as Zophar described it.

Yup. Hell, the FDA already has a approved a synthetic THC (Marinol) for appetite in AIDS and cancer patients.

Regarding St Johns Wort:

“Overall, we found that patients taking either St. John’s wort or placebo had similar rates of response according to scales commonly used for measuring depression,” says Dr. Davidson. “And, although sertraline produced no greater effect than placebo on the primary measures, it fared better than placebo on the Clinical Global Impressions-Improvement scale and produced results consistent with its known benefits.”

https://nccih.nih.gov/news/2002/stjohnswort/pressrelease.htm

 

[Trojita]

OP bolded everything but the part where the Harvard professor doesn't believe the results are necessarily reliable. I'm curious if there's a better way to test those.

It would depend on whether the manufacturing process did actually destroy DNA or whether the DNA that was destroyed is necessary for the active ingredient to even work.

There has been many cases of these companies falsely stating ingredients in the past. There were multivitamins that literally had saw dust in them (not saw dust Palmetto either).

 

[Zophar]

That is a terrible analogy.

But you'd agree though? That a proven remedy developed under controlled conditions would be preferable to an unproven "natural" remedy which is difficult to replicate and control? At least with a synthesized drug you can control the dosage and also account for expected or unintended damaging interactions.

Let's broker a peace then: I'm cool with natural remedies provided the science is there to back up their claims and demonstrate their proven efficacy. Until a natural remedy meets those criteria, the wise thing to do is to stick with what we know works.

I know you are suspicious of the patent control and power of pharmaceutical companies, but you have to also acknowledge that people are making billions of dollars selling supplements that aren't proven to do anything at all, getting around that fact with weaseling claims about promoting wellness/balance/energies/etc. 90% of the things sitting in supplements and natural healing aisles *are* useless bullshit, even if some natural remedies have an inkling of potential - hence, my original claim of "by and large".

 

[Trojita]

But you'd agree though? That a proven remedy developed under controlled conditions would be preferable to an unproven "natural" remedy which is difficult to replicate and control? At least with a synthesized drug you can control the dosage and also account for expected or unintended damaging interactions.

Let's broker a peace then: I'm cool with natural remedies provided the science is there to back up their claims and demonstrate their proven efficacy. Until a natural remedy meets those criteria, the wise thing to do is to stick with what we know works.

I know you are suspicious of the patent control and power of pharmaceutical companies, but you have to also acknowledge that people are making billions of dollars selling supplements that aren't proven to do anything at all, getting around that fact with weaseling claims about promoting wellness/balance/energies/etc. 90% of the things sitting in supplements and natural healing aisles *are* useless bullshit, even if some natural remedies have an inkling of potential.

I can agree with that yes. Peace shall reign.

 

[Jak140]

Yup. Hell, the FDA already has a approved a synthetic THC (Marinol) for appetite in AIDS and cancer patients.

Regarding St Johns Wort:

https://nccih.nih.gov/news/2002/stjohnswort/pressrelease.htm

FYI that study is for major depression, there have been several studies done which show the effectiveness of St John's Wort over placebo in treatment of mild depression.

 

[Jag]

NYAG is the one selling snake oil.

But the weakness of Schneiderman’s evidence was obvious from the settlement he signed in late March with GNC.

The company admitted no wrongdoing, paid no fine and was allowed to go back to selling exactly the same products manufactured in exactly the same way.

The AG who weeks earlier had strongly implied that most of GNC’s products were fake was now affirming that he found “no evidence” that the company deviated from federal regulations.

GNC did agree to conduct DNA testing going forward — but on its raw materials, not the finished products. It also agreed to post signs explaining the difference between plants and processed extracts, in case consumers were confused about that.

Schneiderman trumpets these concessions as “groundbreaking” without ever admitting that his original charges were overhyped. To the contrary, as he announced the GNC settlement, he continued to pretend that he had documented actual wrongdoing: “If you say something is Echinacea, and it tests as not having Echinacea in it, that’s just fraud.”

I called it from day 1. Political bullshit from the AG using shitty science as GNC does with their herbals. GNC settled because they were facing class action lawsuits from the AG letter and this settlement is a fantastic defence.

I work in the industry and we don't sell herbals, so I wasn't concerned by this. But there are enough bad actors to go after. It pisses me off that this is where law enforcement picks their battle.

 

[The Lamp]

Except it was the NY State attorney's office that found this and not the FDA... off of a NYT article no less.



So... who regulates the supplement industry then?

And people who work at GNC wonder why I question them on their knowledge of supplements.

The FTC, but not really. They just investigate/punish when something goes wrong. They don't really regulate like the FDA. The U.S. Supplement industry is not high quality at all.

Edit: damn it old thread. I already posted here.

 

[Trojita]

The reporter of that article hasn't cited any new information. They are also the only news outlet reporting this information.

I can't even find the quote attributed here

The AG who weeks earlier had strongly implied that most of GNC’s products were fake was now affirming that he found “no evidence” that the company deviated from federal regulations.

and the most damning thing is that this comes from the Opinion portion of the New York Daily News.

I tried to find something on the New York Daily News site to attribute that quote to or any criticism of the AG by searching for any article containing his name.

These are the three most recent news reports about the AG's campaign against fake herbal supplements. The last one from April 2nd.
http://www.nydailynews.com/blogs/iteam/fda-officia-ag-blog-entry-1.2184011
http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/i-team/state-attorney-generals-fed-up-supplements-article-1.2170570
http://www.nydailynews.com/blogs/iteam/supplement-industry-responds-request-inquiry-blog-entry-1.2171734

 

[Jag]

I tried to find something on the New York Daily News site to attribute that quote to or any criticism of the AG by searching for any article containing his name.

It's amazing that this settlement didn't garner any attention at all. That opinion article is factually correct.

Settlement (PDF)

The settlement says that GNC did not deviate from industry accepted or Federally mandated testing guidelines. They also have 18 months to instill DNA testing on raw materials (not finished goods like the AG tested) and the agreement expires in 36 months. Unless there is no testing standard for those products. So they basically have to do some minimal testing for a max of 18 months.

FORBES: GNC, NY AG Deal: Herbal Supplements Were In Compliance, But New Testing Requirements Instated

The AG’s statements Monday stand in contrast to prior positions. Earlier this month, in response to the criticism, the office said supplement companies should stop attacking the testing methods, and that “the time has come for the herbal supplements industry to put concerns about what is and is not included in their products to rest.”

But on Monday, the AG’s office said it had come to the conclusion that GNC’s products did in fact meet FDA standards.

Great job NYAG.

 

[Ivieto]

Could be so much worse. They could actually be selling real, fake medicine.

 

[Jibbajabbawockky]

I called it from day 1. Political bullshit from the AG using shitty science as GNC does with their herbals. GNC settled because they were facing class action lawsuits from the AG letter and this settlement is a fantastic defence.

Schneiderman just constantly comes across as a self aggrandizing hack that's constantly mugging for photo ops and news conferences so he can one day jump to Governor or some other higher political office. I'm sure he does some good, but it just constantly seems to be doing what he can to get his face in the news all the time.

 

[Trojita]

Is it possible that these companies followed federal mandates, but did not follow Current Good Manufacturing Processes (cGMP), thus technically not breaking the law in a highly unregulated industry?

They apparently did find a lot of materials that did not belong in the labelled herbal supplement, some being allergens and others being things like mercury. Does this industry actually have proper regulations?

 

[Dreams-Visions]

I am shocked that items manufactured and sold by a completely unregulated industry may end up being littered with scams and bullshit.

shocked, i tell you.

 

[Jag]

Is it possible that these companies followed federal mandates, but did not follow Current Good Manufacturing Processes (cGMP), thus technically not breaking the law in a highly unregulated industry?

cGMPs are federally mandated by FDA rulemaking. FDA 483 inspections for GMP compliance have been significantly stepped up in the past few years.

The GAO took the FDA to task (PDF) for not doing enough GMP testing, primarily for herbals, so the FDA really stepped it up. The NYAG probably should have known this. It was really a softball because all the responsible players in industry took this seriously. NYAG was probably a few years too late with their gotcha campaign. That report is dated 2010!

hey apparently did find a lot of materials that did not belong in the labelled herbal supplement, some being allergens and others being things like mercury. Does this industry actually have proper regulations?

Allergen testing and disclosure is the same as with foods. You will find the same amount of trace materials in mostly anything processed. The testing requirements are in line with foods because the law treats supplements like foods. So the safety levels are legally required to be the same.