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[Firest0rm]

There's been quite a few posts in the past regarding how Iraqi's are suffering under today's condition. But I really don't think people understand the kind of life Iraqi's lived. I don't want to bother arguing right now with some of the people here, but I just want to share this video. This video involves:

Sabawi Ibrahim Hasan Al Tikriti, the Presidential Advisor. He has sunglasses on, and he's the one that points in the beginning of the video. If you don't want to see something disturbing then don't see the video. It's hard to understand what's being said (other than the victims saying "Sir please stop).

 

[3rdman]

Yes...the death and torture in that video suddenly absolves any death and torture that we've done. Thanks, I feel better now.

 

[Mike Works]

I'd accuse you of harboring a hidden agenda, but I just can't seem to find any evidence that supports my theory. If only there were some sort of avatar that could display my suspicions.

Ah well.

 

[Chrono]

....

Lupin?

 

[RiZ III]

US tortured prisoners and killed 500,000 civillians. Bush the new butcher of Baghdad. Kthxbye.

 

[Firest0rm]

I'd accuse you of harboring a hidden agenda, but I just can't seem to find any evidence that supports my theory. If only there were some sort of avatar that could display my suspicions.

Ah well.

I don't have a hidden agenda Mike, people who have argued with me know my views. My avatar is there for me to express my support for the up coming election which I am fortunate enough to take part in.

 

[Firest0rm]

US tortured prisoners and killed 500,000 civillians. Bush the new butcher of Baghdad. Kthxbye.

Say what? last time I heard it was 100,000 civilians. Many of whom have suffered under terrorist bombings and insurgent attacks. But thanks for dropping by.

 

[Loki]

US tortured prisoners and killed 500,000 civillians.

<rolleyes>


Actually, I think it's up to 2.3 million innocent civilians dead now! Genocide! Hitler!


The most common number I see thrown around here is ~100K. Where are you getting this 500K number from? One innocent dead is more than enough, obviously, but still, exaggerating your case does you no good.

 

[Tommie Hu$tle]

There's been quite a few posts in the past regarding how Iraqi's are suffering under today's condition. But I really don't think people understand the kind of life Iraqi's lived. I don't want to bother arguing right now with some of the people here, but I just want to share this

People like you I just smile at and then pat on the head. See let's get a few things in straight. The same thugs and deivants that were killing and torturing when Saddam was in charge are the same thugs and deivants that are killing today. Removing the leader didn't remove the mindset. There was no plan to remove the mindset that creates creatures like this. The administration just thought they would just go away.

 

[Firest0rm]

People like you I just smile at and then pat on the head. See let's get a few things in straight. The same thugs and deivants that were killing and torturing when Saddam was in charge are the same thugs and deivants that are killing today. Removing the leader didn't remove the mindset. There was no plan to remove the mindset that creates creatures like this. The administration just thought they would just go away.

Don't try to lecture me. I know this very well, and this is one of the biggest mistakes that was made in the beginning of the war. They let go of the whole army, most of whom now feel that they hold no place in Iraq's future and thus turn to carrying out the attacks and kidnappings we hear about today.

 

[evil solrac v3.0]

but you aint got a problem when it's someone else's soldiers that are dying for a whole lot of bullshit right? as long as your preffered ethnic group gets what they want.

 

[xabre]

There's been quite a few posts in the past regarding how Iraqi's are suffering under today's condition.

They are. The security situation in Iraq today is utterly atrocious, far worse than it ever was when Saddam Hussein kept the country and its ethnic minorities stable and under control. Now you have various factions attacking the Americans, attacking each other, and attacking innocents and there is no central authority in Iraq that is simply able to put a stop to it. Saddam Hussein was a necessary evil in Iraq, he encouraged secularism and stability in the country and either he or his successors would have been eventually ousted from power for their crimes by ordinary Iraqi's themselves as is the eventual fate of all despotic regimes. In his premature absence a power vacuum has emerged, and when the Americans pack up and fuck off the fake puppet regime they leave behind will be overthrown within a few months and the entire country will delve into years of cival war.

 

[scorcho]

democracy forced on a country or populace that lacks the security and means to protect its own citizens is doomed to failure. even a cursory glance through history is enough to show how tangible democracy's hold is on a country without peace.

this upcoming vote is going to accomplish nothing. either a Sunni majority is going to take hold and run over minroty Kurds and Shiites, the US will attempt to force a more inclusive government at the risk of being alleged of tampering with Iraqi 'will', or a civil war will break out. hell, all three are probable in an environment where only spotty enfranchisement exists. allowing a vote to happen so quickly is only a Shiite stab at power and a US attempt at washing their hands against charges of imperialism.

 

[Firest0rm]

but you aint got a problem when it's someone else's soldiers that are dying for a whole lot of bullshit right? as long as your preffered ethnic group gets what they want.

I don't understand what your trying to imply.

 

[xabre]

I'm sick of these pro-war terrorists stating the obvious as if we need to be reminded every five minutes of the day. 'Saddam tortued his own people' they say. NO FUCKING SHIT HE DID IS WHAT I SAY.

 

[Mike Works]

Say what? last time I heard it was 100,000 civilians. Many of whom have suffered under terrorist bombings and insurgent attacks. But thanks for dropping by.

WHAT

"American only tortured 100,000 civilians, and many of them already had bombings and attacks going on in their life before they were invaded, so it's okay!"

 

[ShadowRed]

There's been quite a few posts in the past regarding how Iraqi's are suffering under today's condition. But I really don't think people understand the kind of life Iraqi's lived. I don't want to bother arguing right now with some of the people here, but I just want to share this video. This video involves:

Sabawi Ibrahim Hasan Al Tikriti, the Presidential Advisor. He has sunglasses on, and he's the one that points in the beginning of the video. If you don't want to see something disturbing then don't see the video. It's hard to understand what's being said (other than the victims saying "Sir please stop).

And so what. You seem to think that people don't believe that Saddam was a bad guy and did bad shit to people. I have yet to see a person on this board deny that he wasn't that. You know who else knew he was a fucked up asshole, the fucking US government for the 40 + years they supported his evil ass. Now we are to believe that suddenly this same government decided that raping people and oppressing political decent in Iraq is a bad thing and we need to blow a few billion we have just laying around doing nothing because everything here in the US is a fucking cake walk, bull motherfucking shit with a cherry on top. For the sake of argument lets say my previous statement is true and the real reason we are in Iraq; there are other places in the word that make Iraq under Saddam look like fucking Star Trek's, Federation of Planets. Why are we not "liberating" these people? Where is your outcry for those people? This liberation excuse is as transparent as the WMD excuse, even more so in light of the fact that it was only the last in a long sting of excuses for this war. Add with it all the reports that have come out that claim that Bush was looking to get into Iraq anyway he could even in the face of evidence that said Saddam had nothing to do with 9/11 or Al Queada, and you don't have to be fucking Encyclopedia Brown to figure out the real reason for this war had about as much to do with liberation as a 40 year old virgin has to do with sex.

 

[nathkenn]

And so what. You seem to think that people don't believe that Saddam was a bad guy and did bad shit to people. I have yet to see a person on this board deny that he wasn't that. You know who else knew he was a fucked up asshole, the fucking US government for the 40 + years they supported his evil ass. Now we are to believe that suddenly this same government decided that raping people and oppressing political decent in Iraq is a bad thing and we need to blow a few billion we have just laying around doing nothing because everything here in the US is a fucking cake walk, bull motherfucking shit with a cherry on top. For the sake of argument lets say my previous statement is true and the real reason we are in Iraq; there are other places in the word that make Iraq under Saddam look like fucking Star Trek's, Federation of Planets. Why are we not "liberating" these people? Where is your outcry for those people? This liberation excuse is as transparent as the WMD excuse, even more so in light of the fact that it was only the last in a long sting of excuses for this war. Add with it all the reports that have come out that claim that Bush was looking to get into Iraq anyway he could even in the face of evidence that said Saddam had nothing to do with 9/11 or Al Queada, and you don't have to be fucking Encyclopedia Brown to figure out the real reason for this war had about as much to do with liberation as a 40 year old virgin has to do with sex.

lol, not only did we support him, we put him in power
bush is exactly the same as all of those greedy bastards over there.

 

[Firest0rm]

They are. The security situation in Iraq today is utterly atrocious, far worse than it ever was when Saddam Hussein kept the country and its ethnic minorities stable and under control. Now you have various factions attacking the Americans, attacking each other, and attacking innocents and there is no central authority in Iraq that is simply able to put a stop to it. Saddam Hussein was a necessary evil in Iraq, he encouraged secularism and stability in the country and either he or his successors would have been eventually ousted from power for their crimes by ordinary Iraqi's themselves as is the eventual fate of all despotic regimes. In his premature absence a power vacuum has emerged, and when the Americans pack up and fuck off the fake puppet regime they leave behind will be overthrown within a few months and the entire country will delve into years of cival war.

I never said they weren't. The factions attacking are mostly made up of Ba'ath members, and Foreigner Terrorists. If factions really were attacking each other the chaos would be much worse, many sides are holding off even though these two groups are causing alot of damage. As for Saddam's successors, the grip he has is almost impossible to break by Iraqi's alone. His son's are just as ruthless and would have kept the power. Lastly the old "fake puppet" claim. The election coming up is for a temporary government that will begin writing a draft of the constitution. This government will only stay in power for one year. After a year there will be another election for a new governent

 

[Phoenix]

There's been quite a few posts in the past regarding how Iraqi's are suffering under today's condition. But I really don't think people understand the kind of life Iraqi's lived. I don't want to bother arguing right now with some of the people here, but I just want to share this video. This video involves:

Sabawi Ibrahim Hasan Al Tikriti, the Presidential Advisor. He has sunglasses on, and he's the one that points in the beginning of the video. If you don't want to see something disturbing then don't see the video. It's hard to understand what's being said (other than the victims saying "Sir please stop).

The fact that conditions sucked for them before (which is absolutely true) doesn't mean that conditions should suck for them now. One doesn't follow the other. There are atrocities happening in Iraq right now, and that sucks too. The entire situation sucks and the people who are getting screwed in either case is the Iraqi populace.

 

[Tommie Hu$tle]

Don't try to lecture me.

I'm not trying to lecture you. I'm trying to get you to focus on the real problem Saddam is a straw man, a bogeyman if you will. Discussing him today and showing what he did doesn't fix the problems of today. I'm focused on the problems of today.

 

[Do The Mario]

I fucking cried when America reelected bush, I woke up excited turned on the radio listened to the radio logged onto CNN and waited for the alleged “greatest democracy in the world” to finally express there outrage at the atrocities in Iraq. Driving to Uni Kerry has a lead awesome, driving home from Uni I was fuckin devastated.


How can anyone support the precedent America has set in Iraq?

How can anyone support a total disregard for the United Nations?

No other country in the world would have got away with what America has done, if North Korea invaded a country because they had weapons of mass destruction and were a threat there would be an outrage.

The double standard makes me sick, as does the illiterate president of the United States.

 

[Firest0rm]

Every thing in the world is corrupt and everyone is going to do what is in their interest. I don't love the US governmet for what it's doing right now in Iraq. It's hands are covered with blood. But so is almost every fucking government in this world. No government gives a real shit about Iraq in the first place, its just the oil they care about. In any kind of scenario you can choose Iraq's only way out of the Ba'ath was through pain, and alot of it. It's not going to magically transform into a democracy without blood being spilled. There's alot of people and a few countries who would rather see every Iraqi die than let Iraq prosper into a democractic country.

edit: I'm off to bed.

 

[Tommie Hu$tle]

...dp

 

[Do The Mario]

If China perceives America as a threat due to there “weapons of Mass destructions” should they be allowed to disarm them?

 

[Phoenix]

If China perceives America as a threat due to there “weapons of Mass destructions” should they be allowed to disarm them?

Sure. Even if the UN said it was okay you have to actually invade the US in order to do it. Therein is the rub.

 

[Do The Mario]

Sure. Even if the UN said it was okay you have to actually invade the US in order to do it. Therein is the rub.

Who needs UN approval these days?

Plus I hope you realize that china has a standing army of over 2.3 million plus a population of 5x that of America.

 

[nathkenn]

Sure. Even if the UN said it was okay you have to actually invade the US in order to do it. Therein is the rub.

What's funny is if they did invade they'd actually find weapons of mass destruction here

 

[Loki]

Who needs UN approval these days?

Plus I hope you realize that china has a standing army of over 2.3 million plus a population of 5x that of America.

Yes, but we have rednecks. Rednecks with guns.

 

[Do The Mario]

Yes, but we have rednecks. Rednecks with guns.

I am counting on redneck populations decreasing due to genetically inherited diseases.

 

[nathkenn]

I am counting on redneck populations decreasing due to genetically inherited diseases.

Still going strong where I live =|

 

[Phoenix]

Who needs UN approval these days?

Plus I hope you realize that china has a standing army of over 2.3 million plus a population of 5x that of America.

I hope you realize that China doesn't have the capacity to transport their standing army much less their population to the United States. They just barely have the airlift capacity and merchant marine ability to invade Taiwan. Unless the chineese military intends to swim all the way here, an invasion of the United States is a tad out of their reach.

 

[Socreges]

Wait, Saddam's regime was corrupt?? Why the fuck hasn't this been said before???

GO IRAQ! GO USA! GO DEMOCRACY!

Hah. People often consider the War in Iraq in a negative light, rather than a positive one with freedom/peace/etc, because of, I think, two reasons. The USA's intentions for going into Iraq are very suspect, if not unquestionably unjust, and the chances of success have always looked precarious. And now, they're increasingly doubtful. It's difficult to act as if Iraq is on the verge of democracy.

WHAT

"American only tortured 100,000 civilians, and many of them already had bombings and attacks going on in their life before they were invaded, so it's okay!"

No, he was saying that many of the 100k people died at the hands of terrorists and insurgents, as opposed to the US. Not that it's a significant point. What remains is that those are 100k lives that wouldn't have been lost if they hadn't invaded.

 

[Tommie Hu$tle]

What's funny is if they did invade they'd actually find weapons of mass destruction here

Hell, they wouldn't have to invade for that all they'd need to do is a good google search and they'd have most of our facilities. Where we keep our nukes for the most part is common knowledge.

 

[talking head]

what happens in the video?

 

[Shinobi]

Every thing in the world is corrupt and everyone is going to do what is in their interest.

Exactly.

 

[Phoenix]

Hell, they wouldn't have to invade for that all they'd need to do is a good google search and they'd have most of our facilities. Where we keep our nukes for the most part is common knowledge.

Considering that chineese spies stole MX missile information and various other technologies from right under the US intelligence community's nose I don't think they are at a loss for where anything is in the country any more

 

[evil solrac v3.0]

Hell, they wouldn't have to invade for that all they'd need to do is a good google search and they'd have most of our facilities. Where we keep our nukes for the most part is common knowledge.

north dakota and montana? oddly enough and quite ironic that's where a lot militia men have based themselves.

 

[Manabanana]

what happens in the video?

I only watched about half, but not much. Some soldiers have something flimsy and, I assume, sharp they're hitting some guys with. They didn't seem to be hurt too bad by it. Looked like they were running from bees. Those soldiers hit like girls. Again, I only watched half. Maybe the disturbing part comes after they girly fight.

 

[Particle Physicist]

I only watched about half, but not much. Some soldiers have something flimsy and, I assume, sharp they're hitting some guys with. They didn't seem to be hurt too bad by it. Looked like they were running from bees. Those soldiers hit like girls. Again, I only watched half. Maybe the disturbing part comes after they girly fight.

im not even halfway through it and they are also kicking and punching that guy in the face..

btw, have you ever been hit with a reed or bamboo stick? hurts. its like a whip.



edit...just finished it... the video isnt gruesome at all.

 

[Fresh Prince]

So the point of this thread is to limit Bush bashing by saying that Saddam was a dictator that needed to be get rid of to ensure a proper life for the everday Iraqi.

Ahhhh the point was WMD's for the invasion to be honest the world didn't give a shit until the phrase 'WMD' was uttered. Freedom of a dictator was not the primary reason to go to Iraq. As it's been said before if that were the case we'd take the show on the road.

 

[Socreges]

north dakota and montana? oddly enough and quite ironic that's where a lot militia men have based themselves.

They also happen to have the largest borders connected to Canada.

Not that it concerns me, but on the small chance that something DOES go down in the future, the proximity wouldn't be comforting.

 

[Do The Mario]

I hope you realize that China doesn't have the capacity to transport their standing army much less their population to the United States. They just barely have the airlift capacity and merchant marine ability to invade Taiwan. Unless the chineese military intends to swim all the way here, an invasion of the United States is a tad out of their reach.

It’s widely expected that in the near future America will cease being the world’s hegemonic power and will be over taken by China and potentially India.

(Not invaded but overtaken as the worlds economic/military superpower)

Given a space of 10-15 Years China will the captaincy to ship those troops, they will also be the world’s new hegemonic power.

I hope they don’t abuse the power like America has over the last half centaury.

 

[Fresh Prince]

Not knowing jack about Chinese foreign policy I think it would be unlikely they stepped out in a fashion similar to the US with the exception of anything realated to North Korea.

 

[Tommie Hu$tle]

I hope they don’t abuse the power like America has over the last half centaury.

You are ingonrant

 

[Socreges]

It’s widely expected that in the near future America will cease being the world’s hegemonic power and will be over taken by China and potentially India.

Given a space of 10-15 Years China will the captaincy to ship those troops to America, and they will also be the world’s new hegemonic power.

I think China will have the capacity within 10-15 years, but they won't be THE superpower for another few decades.

I hope they don’t abuse the power like America has over the last half centaury.

Not to doom and gloom, but there's a good chance that you'll be longing for the days of US hegemony. Just consider the state of China right now. Barely responsible to the people, riddled with poverty, and still bitter about past abuses (colonialism, etc).

 

[Do The Mario]

You are ingonrant

Ok are you cool with Vietnam and Iraq?

Undermining the United Nations?
Lying to the United Nations?
Hundreds of thousands dead innocents?

I am not sure what part of my post you think is “ignorant”, I study international politics and if you are saying China becoming the worlds hegemonic power is BS then go read up on it.

I just don’t hope abuse there power.

 

[Fresh Prince]

IMO China will continue to 'bully' it's lesser bretheren but I really doubt they will step outside the Asia Pacific region militarily (and perhaps politically). Plus I think I heard a US commentator think there will be a Indo-Pacific 'NATO' made up of India, Japan, Thailand and Australia primarily within the next few years to safeguard against China- seems plausible to me.

 

[Do The Mario]

To China’s credit they have come along way over the last few years, I am expecting big changes in the wake of the 2008 Olympics.

They just need to come to terms with Taiwan and sought out some human rights issues.

 

[Manabanana]

im not even halfway through it and they are also kicking and punching that guy in the face..

btw, have you ever been hit with a reed or bamboo stick? hurts. its like a whip.



edit...just finished it... the video isnt gruesome at all.

Can't say I have...Yeah, I saw a few blows to stomach/chest. I must have not been watching when they got him in the face. I'm sure it hurt like a bitch, but it wasn't much to watch. I see worse on prime-time television in the states