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[Hero]

Maybe after China gets all of its population to follow one Chinese dialect, and maybe after they have enough food to feed their people, then they can probably go with any kind of invasion plan of another country. I wouldn't expect anything before that.

Somebody really needs to start a Political-Age forum.

 

[Tommie Hu$tle]

Ok are you cool with Vietnam and Iraq?

Define cool.

Undermining the United Nations?

Lying to the United Nations?
Hundreds of thousands dead innocents? [/QUOTE]

What are you asking here these aren't really questions.

I am not sure what part of my post you think is “ignorant”, I study international politics and if you are saying China becoming the worlds hegemonic power is BS then go read up on it.

A basic google search can tell you that. You could have saved some cash.

I just don’t hope abuse there power.

Bingo, do you think China gaining more power would make them MORE likely to respect human rights? Then you are ignorant.

 

[Socreges]

To China’s credit they have come along way over the last few years, I am expecting big changes in the wake of the 2008 Olympics.

They just need to come to terms with Taiwan and sought out some human rights issues.

You're right, no biggie!

Seriously, besides how difficult it is to "come to terms" with those particular problems, there is more.

 

[Do The Mario]

Define cool.

1. You know those statements are questions; wow because I didn’t word them correctly you can ignore them?

2. China is opening up and I wouldn’t attack there human rights policies when America has 100k Dead Iraqi’s on there hands broken the Geneva convention and tortured prisoners. The pot can’t call the kettle black!

3. There is no “safety net” on the standard of living in America people are allowed to slip into dire poverty but at the same time 300 billion dollars is justified on Iraq.

4. What about weapons of mass destruction in former soviet states? They are known to be there but the US only spent 1 billion dollars trying to secure those weapons.


Wild goose chase = 300 billion dollars
Securing Known Weapons = 1 Billion dollars

Wow that’s some efficient spending

5. There are people around the world in much great need then Iraq so the “high horse” attitude that America did this as a gesture of good will doesn’t wash with me.

If anything you are being ignorant with smug remarks like “define cool”.

Attacking Vietnam? Infrastructure in that country is still damaged a few years ago I have seen it with my own eyes there are roads that still bear the scars of the War the people in this country know poverty that you can’t fathom.

Iraq? Well there are 100k+ dead Iraqi’s nothing is going to change for decades, peoples fathers, Mothers, Son’s, Brothers and Daughters have been killed in this travesty.

There is going to be generations of resentment towards the American people because of it, it was never the correct way to topple Iraqi Government and was a waste of money.


Let me get one thing straight I don’t hate Americans, my Best mate and I took a group of Americans Night Clubbing just a week ago and I have many American friends. But there have been some colossal blunders in American foreign policy over the last half century which is the reason of the international resentment towards your country surely you can realize that?

 

[Particle Physicist]

all i have to say is that i cant think of any country that hasnt abused the power it has received. you are living in a dream world if you believe your country is pure, innocent and always does what is 'right'

 

[Fusebox]

US tortured prisoners and killed 500,000 civillians. Bush the new butcher of Baghdad. Kthxbye.

Ah yes, the human pyramid - how excruciating.

 

[Do The Mario]

all i have to say is that i cant think of any country that hasnt abused the power it has received. you are living in a dream world if you believe your country is pure, innocent and always does what is 'right'

I hope that wasn’t direct towards me because I personally believe that all foreign policy is about self interest. For example even the huge amount of Aid Australia gave in the wake of the tsunami was direct towards areas that would benefit us.

My only hope is for self interest in foreign policy not to infringe upon the rights of others.

 

[xabre]

My only hope is for self interest in foreign policy not to infringe upon the rights of others.

Hahaha, keep hoping then.

 

[Particle Physicist]

I hope that wasn’t direct towards me because I personally believe that all foreign policy is about self interest. For example even the huge amount of Aid Australia gave in the wake of the tsunami was direct towards areas that would benefit us.

My only hope is for self interest in foreign policy not to infringe upon the rights of others.

the second sentence was just a general comment, but the first one was directed at the china becoming the worlds hegemonic power discussion. it would be great if, when it does happen, no abuse of power will occur.. but thats an idealistic thought, and not very realistic.

 

[Do The Mario]

Hahaha, keep hoping then.

There are plenty of countries whose foreign policy doesn’t infringe apron the rights of others.

With Embargoes and trade restrictions an exception.

 

[Fresh Prince]

Ah yes, the human pyramid - how excruciating.

Cheerleaders do that shit remember!

Do you all really expect China to stop being so isolationist within the next 25 years? IMO China will get the territories it wants- the world will shut up for the sake of trade and China will be content (unless it wants to impart some ideological crusade).

 

[Lil' Dice]

If i were a betting man i'd wager that a significant percentage of the soldiers who carried out those attacks are now serving in our newly appointed Iraqi National Guard.

 

[Stele]

IMO China will continue to 'bully' it's lesser bretheren but I really doubt they will step outside the Asia Pacific region militarily (and perhaps politically). Plus I think I heard a US commentator think there will be a Indo-Pacific 'NATO' made up of India, Japan, Thailand and Australia primarily within the next few years to safeguard against China- seems plausible to me.

You can nix every one of those countries except Japan, and you have your Indo-Pacific NATO. There's several informal East Asia alliances, but none of them is set up solely to contain China. There's the Shanghai Cooperation Organization -- Russia, China, and the Central Asian states -- formed as a reaction to the US missile defense system. There's a loose (so loose in fact each state still values its relationship with the US more than each other) China-India-Russia entente, once again as a counterbalance to the US. Then there's the ASEAN +3, with great possibility of setting up a pan-East Asia trading bloc rivalling NAFTA and the EU.

I think if East Asia (barring Japan) had a choice, most countries would prefer China as the supreme regional power as opposed to the US. Historically, China has never preferred direct control over its dependencies, and were always more concerned with image-driven tributes. Even when China was eons ahead of the rest of the world (Tang dynasty or early Ming), and could have extended its influence to Europe, China has always punched below its weight. The only country that will have a problem with China's rise is Japan, but those countries will inevitably fight anyway. And I don't see Japan winning the next time.

Maybe after China gets all of its population to follow one Chinese dialect, and maybe after they have enough food to feed their people, then they can probably go with any kind of invasion plan of another country.

Each citizen must also know how to make chicken salad, while we're listing useless criterions here.

 

[Drozmight]

I know how that guy feels... had 5 guys beat me senseless a half hour ago.

 

[EviLore]

There's been quite a few posts in the past regarding how Iraqi's are suffering under today's condition. But I really don't think people understand the kind of life Iraqi's lived. I don't want to bother arguing right now with some of the people here, but I just want to share this video. This video involves:

Sabawi Ibrahim Hasan Al Tikriti, the Presidential Advisor. He has sunglasses on, and he's the one that points in the beginning of the video. If you don't want to see something disturbing then don't see the video. It's hard to understand what's being said (other than the victims saying "Sir please stop).

People getting hit with sticks by pansy-ass paunch-ridden iraqi "soldiers" somehow steals the spotlight from 100,000 civilian deaths...how, exactly?

 

[Shinobi]

I hope they don’t abuse the power like America has over the last half centaury.

:lol :lol :lol The bullshit at Tiananmen Square alone tells us that such hopes are pointless. Of course how did the world respond to that mess? They made China the fastest growing economy in history.

The question isn't if China (or any other nation in a similiar spot) will abuse their powers. The question is how much power will they have to abuse.

 

[iapetus]

Saddam Hussein was a necessary evil in Iraq

Sufficient, not necessary, IMO. It should be possible to keep things under control without him and without an equivalent state of oppression. But that sure as hell isn't what's going on now.

 

[Do The Mario]

:lol :lol :lol The bullshit at Tiananmen Square alone tells us that such hopes are pointless. Of course how did the world respond to that mess? They made China the fastest growing economy in history.

The question isn't if China (or any other nation in a similiar spot) will abuse their powers. The question is how much power will they have to abuse.

Come off it know, China has moved great strides from the Tiananmen Square incident.

Just look at the flexibility in which they handled the reclaiming of Hong Kong.

The whole point of me razing China in this thread has been completely lost.

The point I was trying to make is the action the US has taken in Iraq has set a dangerous precedent.

In 10-15+ years when China becomes the world’s hegemonic power could they justify invading America because there weapons of mass destruction are a threat and killing 100k+ people to boot?

It was purely a hypothetical for people to say “that’s pretty fucked up” but instead the majority of replies have been.

“China is going to abuse there power more then America”

“There Human rights record is fucked”

I apologize for sounding like a broken record but 100K+ dead Iraqi’s is pretty dam shocking plus the total disregard for the Geneva Convention, that it’s self isn’t a stellar human rights record.

Plus seeing Vietnam only a few years ago which still has scares from the Vietnam war and talking to a friend from the country. I was shocked at the total disregard for the innocent civilian life.

Dropping two Atomic Bombs on Japan in World War 2.

Appointing puppet dictators, after over throwing unwanted governments.

I don’t understand how America can criticize China’s Human rights record when they have gotten away with blue murder.

I know I am going to get flamed by most Americans for saying this but surely you HAVE to understand why there is such resentment towards your country within the international community.

Things are not going to change in Iraq over night, like I said earlier people have had there families killed by this occupation there will be generations of resentment.

The standard reply in this thread hasn’t filled me with confidence either, I don’t see how people can laugh at such topic or make jokes. Rather then eating a slice of humble pie people in this thread still defend there government and I don’t.

I could post pages of aspects of Australian governments I am not proud of but governments need to reflect to past mistakes to make better judgments in the future.

 

[Che]

Oh noes! The person who claims that he's a representative of Iraqis and and is trying to convince us that the the US occupation is "da best!1!" for months now gives us proof that Saddam is a *surprise surprise* a cruel dictator. To end this travesty, Firest0rm can you stop trying to represent the Iraqis because for all I know:

1)You could be a stupid Republican faking his id to convince us that Bush did God's will, trying to explain the thousands of Iraqi deaths (and btw you never seemed concerned about these deaths- I mean 100,000+ deaths of your people haven't touched you?) .

2)You could be an Iraqi with a family that has interests from the US occupation so the "news" you're getting from Iraq aren't that objective.

Also can you get rid of that ridiculous avatar it's like screaming that you're an Iraqi so that people can take you seriously. Last but not least, this can shut you up for a couple of days: *warning: contains violent images of an infamous prison*

http://www.antiwar.com/news/?articleid=2444

 

[Shinobi]

I don't think you're understanding us Mario. Most of the people in this thread know that America is and has been corrupt for years. That isn't a newsflash. Few people on this board are more critical of America's hypocritcal, double talking, inconsistent bullshit over the last fifty years then I am. It should also be noted that I don't live in the US...I live in Canada, and we've got our own disgraceful skeletons in the closet, like the US, China, and every other wealthy or powerful nation that's ever existed.

My point about China is that they ran over thousands of their own students with their own tanks with the whole world watching, and they didn't give a shit. And somehow, nobody else gave a shit either. What we've got now is the west falling all over each other to make business with China, with western leaders flying into Beijeng week after week to meet and greet, sign deals, and then talk about how wonderful China's human record has become over the last ten years. Well sure, that's an easy thing to say when your pockets are going to be lined with green. But just as I didn't buy a word that was said by the US government in regards to their Iraqi "evidence", I'll remain skeptical regarding China making real progress into the 19th century, nevermind the 20th and 21st. Notice I didn't say "some progress"...I'm sure they've done that.

With the Beijing Olympics being just three years away, much of China's progress in recent years could be seen as nothing but window dressing for the IOC's benefit anyhow...and don't get me started on those corrupt motherfuckers.

 

[Azih]

China is much worse than the States. Much much worse. Look at the Chinese stance towards Taiwan, Nepal, and its repeated attempts to crush any sort of democratic movement in Hong Kong. And that's not taking into account the Falun Gong, the lack of remorse over Tianneman Square and the fact that everybody in China who is not Han isn't happy. All of these problems have been there for decades it's just now they're becoming consumer whores as well. It's like the Worst of All Worlds!


Y'see the thing is American administration *is* beholden to the fundamentally decent American people. It's just that the American people don't give a damn about the outside world allowing any American administration free reign to do whatever it pleases in terms of foreign policy. This problem is at least fixable (though it remains a foolish hope to think it will be), the government of China isn't.

Edit: As for the whole point of this thread. Everybody except the dullest and dumbest of lefties (I'm looking at you Che) knows that Saddam was evil. That doesn't mean that what the Americans are doing there now is immune from criticism.

 

[Shinobi]

All of these problems have been there for decades it's just now they're becoming consumer whores as well. It's like the Worst of All Worlds!

:lol

 

[Do The Mario]

I still disagree strongly that you think my hopes for a hegemonic power to not abuse are “hopeless”. Maybe they are foolish but if we get to the stage were several alliances can keep each other in check and hold each other accountable it’s possible.

It’s not the ideal way for human rights to be upheld but I would take it any day over the current “free ride” the worlds super powers currently have.

We need reforms to strengthen the UN desperately and give them a spine.

 

[Boogie]

When thousands of people protest the Iraq War in New York City, the worst that happens is some of the more unruly ones spend the night in jail.

When thousands of people protest in China, they run them over with tanks.

Do the Mario, please shut the fuck up.

 

[Do The Mario]

When thousands of people protest the Iraq War in New York City, the worst that happens is some of the more unruly ones spend the night in jail.

When thousands of people protest in China, they run them over with tanks.

Do the Mario, please shut the fuck up.

Wow thanks for you wonderful insight boogie I think you missed the point of my post.

What is the difference between running over you own people with tanks and dropping Napalm on Innocent people from another country?

 

[Azih]

What is the difference between running over you own people with tanks and dropping Napalm on Innocent people from another country?

Ingonrant indeed.

 

[Pellham]

Plus I hope you realize that china has a standing army of over 2.3 million plus a population of 5x that of America.

That number is meaningless when the US can simply bomb the crap out of any invading army before they even reach our shores, and then proceed to drop nuclear bombs on the invading country.

No country period wants to attack the US. That's why they sponsor terrorists instead.

 

[Che]

Wow thanks for you wonderful insight boogie I think you missed the point of my post.

What is the difference between running over you own people with tanks and dropping Napalm on Innocent people from another country?

IAWTP.

 

[Boogie]

Wow thanks for you wonderful insight boogie I think you missed the point of my post.

What is the difference between running over you own people with tanks and dropping Napalm on Innocent people from another country?

I'm not giving you insight, because you are flat-out undeserving of any. Tons of other people have already given good arguments against you, and they haven't gotten through your skull either, so I'm not going to waste my time.

I will say this, though. China is rising, yes, but I don't know why you (and a couple others maybe) think that in 10-15 years China will be the world's most powerful nation militarily.

In 10-15 years, the US is still going to be the world's top dog in military power. China has a huge army, but right now, that's about it. The USA is just head-and-shoulders above everyone else right now, and it's going to take quite a bit longer than 10-15 years for anyone to surpass them, IMO.

 

[Shinobi]

What is the difference between running over you own people with tanks and dropping Napalm on Innocent people from another country?

That didn't really help your point. :lol If you can't see how running over your own citizens is even more despicable then dropping bombs on some dusty ass country half a world away (and like I said we all think that's wrong), there isn't much any of us can say.

Let me put it another way...which do you think is more unsavoury? Shooting a stranger to death on a street corner, or running over your own mother with your car?

Even evil has levels of degrees, at least in the finite realm.

 

[Che]

China is much worse than the States. Much much worse. Look at the Chinese stance towards Taiwan, Nepal, and its repeated attempts to crush any sort of democratic movement in Hong Kong. And that's not taking into account the Falun Gong, the lack of remorse over Tianneman Square and the fact that everybody in China who is not Han isn't happy. All of these problems have been there for decades it's just now they're becoming consumer whores as well. It's like the Worst of All Worlds!


Y'see the thing is American administration *is* beholden to the fundamentally decent American people. It's just that the American people don't give a damn about the outside world allowing any American administration free reign to do whatever it pleases in terms of foreign policy. This problem is at least fixable (though it remains a foolish hope to think it will be), the government of China isn't.

Edit: As for the whole point of this thread. Everybody except the dullest and dumbest of lefties (I'm looking at you Che) knows that Saddam was evil.

I'm sick and tired of trying to make you understand. Saddam was a murderer like every other dictator in this damn planet. BUT this doesn't justify USA's actions one bit (in other words what you and your buddy Firest0rm are trying to do) for many various reasons I've explained again and again and again and again...

PS. "That doesn't mean that what the Americans are doing there now is immune from criticism[" ?!?!?!? That's all you have to say for the murder of 100,000 people?

 

[Do The Mario]

Ingonrant indeed.

Well then I am fuckin ignorant but it doesn’t answer my question does it?

They both are truly despicable crimes against humanity and it really doesn’t matter which one is more “evil” but I think it’s a valid a case of the pot calling the kettle black.

And if I am ignorant then Boogie is too as he totally MISSED THE FUCKIN point of my post number #69 in this thread were I stress It was a “hypothetical” situation and I was merely turning the Iraqi situation around and putting America in the Iraqi’s peoples shoes. It was a statement about the “Precedent” America has set down by invading Iraq. Maybe such situations are too hard for some Gaf’ers to fathom.

Now Boogie is talking about when china is going to be the world super power, again I used it is a fucking hypothetical however if it does happen who cares if I was wrong 10-15 years? It doesn’t really matter if its 30 years it’s just a minor detail in the thread.

 

[speedpop]

What is it with all this critical and cynic thinking? Everyone seems to be throwing knives at each other but nothing is hitting whatsoever.

Far as I'm concerned, the US can be rid of itself. I'll learn mandarin and wait for the invasion.

 

[NetMapel]

If you guys really think that China has improved a lot since the civil war, then you are under a delusion. The living standard in 90% of China is still crap. Shanghai, and possibly Beijing and Canton are the only "livable" places by a western standard. China's stands against Taiwan isn't improving much too, except they have finally come to an agreement to have a temporarily direct commercial flight path during the Chinese new year to allow Taiwanese to go back to Taiwan. There is also a reason why Taiwan just absolutely refuse to merge with China, and it is because of the whole "one country, two system" thing with Hong Kong (same system which China wants to use on Taiwan if Taiwan merges.). Hong Kong officials are slowly being replaced by some Chinese officials, and in time, Hong Kongnese will have less and less saying on how they should run. The Hong Kongnese government will be a puppet state in the future.

Oh, and did I also mention about how ridiculously brainwashed the Chinese youths are ? They just seem to have a completely different mindsets than the west, and they are very two-faced. Some of the fakiest people I know are mainland Chinese, and I just hate that. Oh, and lastly, falun gon tells people to kill themselves at the last stage of their training so their spirit could raise to heaven or something. They also don't allow their people to go see doctors and so on. All I can say is that the Chinese government was wrong to beat up people who practice falun gon, but really, the whole thing is spreading like a virus, and I do not like people who kill themselves at the last stage of their meditation.

So you may think US is bad, but they are no where as bad as China. I am content with the way the world runs now. War in Iraq isn't great in my opinion, but I think it will take a long time to educate the people in Iraq about the world outside of their homes.

 

[Boogie]

In your post, you compared China and America. In your comparison, you had China come out favourably. For that, you are an idiot. Period.

I mean, when people on both sides of the aisle are calling your points retarded, you should take notice.

Or put another way, in GAF's peer review, we've established a scientific consensus that you're a douche.

 

[Azih]

I'm sick and tired of trying to make you understand. Saddam was a murderer like every other dictator in this damn planet. BUT this doesn't justify USA's actions one bit (in other words what you and your buddy Firest0rm are trying to do)

If you would care to open your eyes you'd see that I'm NOT agreeing with Firestorm here genius. I never supported the Iraqi war but I do support the elections now that we're in this mess seeing as THEY'RE THE ONLY FREAKING WAY TO GET OUT OF IT. Idiot. You're such a waste of air.

 

[Azih]

Well then I am fuckin ignorant but it doesn’t answer my question does it?

Alright I did jump into the discussion late so I may have missed some stuff that happened but the thing is that I already answered that question. American atrocities can be pusished by the American people by kicking the administration out of office and hell even impeaching it. There's no such corrective measure in China.

Of course the former would require Americans to actually pay more attention to the outside world and the foreign policies of their government but I already pointed this out.


Also please note that I'm generalising pretty heavily when talking about Americans but not without just cause I feel.

 

[Che]

If you would care to open your eyes you'd see that I'm NOT agreeing with Firestorm here genius. I never supported the Iraqi war but I do support the elections now that we're in this mess seeing as THEY'RE THE ONLY FREAKING WAY TO GET OUT OF IT. Idiot. You're such a waste of air.

Oh yeah the "elections"... *insert huge rollseyes here* IIRC this is Firest0rm's opinion too. Whatever I'm bailing out of this thread, cos it's getting ridiculous.

 

[Do The Mario]

In your post, you compared China and America. In your comparison, you had China come out favourably. For that, you are an idiot. Period.

I mean, when people on both sides of the aisle are calling your points retarded, you should take notice.

Or put another way, in GAF's peer review, we've established a scientific consensus that you're a douche.

No I never made China come out “better” I purely said it was a case of the “pot calling the kettle black”.

I will apologize if you came to that conclusion after reading my post

Maybe I could have stressed I was purely saying at worst both records are as bad as each other, and commenting that several American administrations have been able to get away with actions that any other nations would got roasted for.

I was trying to point out why there is such resentment (i don’t hold any) towards America in the international community.

 

[Azih]

Oh yeah the "elections"... *insert huge rollseyes here* IIRC this is Firest0rm's opinion too. Whatever I'm bailing out of this thread, cos it's getting ridiculous.

If you could bail out of life while you're at it that would be much appreciated.

 

[Do The Mario]

If you could bail out of life while you're at it that would be much appreciated.

That’s pretty low, why can’t people just have a solid debate without getting personal?

At least we are having a solid (at times) debate about foreign policy and maybe learning a few things or understanding another person’s view.

I don’t care if someone doesn’t agree with me I just like talking about politics and I am truly interested in other people’s opinion.

 

[Phoenix]

all i have to say is that i cant think of any country that hasnt abused the power it has received. you are living in a dream world if you believe your country is pure, innocent and always does what is 'right'

Truer words have never been said.

 

[Guileless]

I don't live in a dream world, and I don't claim that the US government is an all-powerful benevolent force for good in the world. The US invaded Iraq in its own national interests.

But what was that national interest? To create a stable, friendly democracy in a troubled, stagnant region that breeds suicide killers and murderous dictators. Our decisionmakers believe that we will realize a benefit from that eventuality. While this was our overall goal, you can't ignore the fact that if that happens, it will be vastly beneficial to Iraqis and potentially people in the wider region.

It must be quite galling for firest0rm to hear the insults and belittling of people who live comfortably in free market democracies, where we are all free to utilize our talents as we see fit to live the lives we want to lead. The vast majority of people in Iraq--and the rest of the Arab world--don't know what that's like. Why not? It's simple--they do not use the only system of government that works.

Ask elder Japanese, Germans, or South Koreans. Or ask Kosovars or Kuwaitis or Aghans Poles. Did they benefit from the US pursuing its national interests?

Again, I'm not saying the US is a lily-white avenger for the downtrodden. But is there another force in human history that has done more to create the opportunity for people to realize thier potential as free and open societies? So I'm not saying don't remember the bad--and there's plenty of bad things in all our lives--but keep things in perspective.

 

[Azih]

That’s pretty low, why can’t people just have a solid debate without getting personal?

Eh you're right, I should have just put Che on my ignore list a while ago. We get nothing from each other's posts anyway.







He's still an idiot though.

 

[Socreges]

In reply to the China/human rights business:

After Tiananmen, the West responded by placing immediate sanctions (economic/arms). Only now is the EU lifting an arms ban (unfortunately) and also, for instance, it took several years and a lot of deliberation before they were allowed into the WTO (2002?).

Unfortunately in the years that China WAS being punished, they made little progress. Countries realized that it wasn't worth the trouble, in that not trading with China couldn't be afforded. And now, with each year, China is making some steps (ie, putting human rights into their constitution) just as a result of diplomacy. At the same time, millions of Chinese are being pulled out of poverty because of international trade.

This isn't to say that the situation is desirable. China is still easily the worst violator of human rights. But, after much research, I don't think there is a better alternative. I began doing a paper that was supposed to criticize America and the West for being so soft on China. Ultimately my thesis supported them. *boggle*

 

[Sirpopopop]

It’s widely expected that in the near future America will cease being the world’s hegemonic power and will be over taken by China and potentially India.

(Not invaded but overtaken as the worlds economic/military superpower)

Given a space of 10-15 Years China will the captaincy to ship those troops, they will also be the world’s new hegemonic power.

I hope they don’t abuse the power like America has over the last half centaury.

Sounds like someone who has bought Marxist Theory... hook, line and sinker. Except Marxist Theory doesn't have the U.S crumbling as fast as you say it is going to...

Not to mention you're an idiot to think that those two countries HAVE ANY FUCKING SHOT OF BEING A BETTER WORLD LEADER THAN THE U.S.

God knows the U.S has its share of problems. However, from personal experience (I've lived in India for long periods of time at least) I can tell you that India as the leading world power is not something YOU WOULD EVER FUCKING WANT.

I don't want any country where the politicians in every state are greedy cutthroats who make George W. Bush seem like a saint as the world leader.

As for China... I think other posters have documented well what sort of country it is.


If you're fucking rooting for that, I hope you believe in a God, because religion is the only elixer I know of that can keep you sane in a world where China and India are 1 and 2.

Maybe I could have stressed I was purely saying at worst both records are as bad as each other, and commenting that several American administrations have been able to get away with actions that any other nations would got roasted for.

Chinese Mass Killings of their own internal people number in the millions. Sure, the U.S has the Native Americans on their record, but that was more than a century ago, and surely not as many as the Chinese Mass Killings.

 

[Fresh Prince]

You can nix every one of those countries except Japan, and you have your Indo-Pacific NATO. There's several informal East Asia alliances, but none of them is set up solely to contain China. There's the Shanghai Cooperation Organization -- Russia, China, and the Central Asian states -- formed as a reaction to the US missile defense system. There's a loose (so loose in fact each state still values its relationship with the US more than each other) China-India-Russia entente, once again as a counterbalance to the US. Then there's the ASEAN +3, with great possibility of setting up a pan-East Asia trading bloc rivalling NAFTA and the EU.

I think if East Asia (barring Japan) had a choice, most countries would prefer China as the supreme regional power as opposed to the US. Historically, China has never preferred direct control over its dependencies, and were always more concerned with image-driven tributes. Even when China was eons ahead of the rest of the world (Tang dynasty or early Ming), and could have extended its influence to Europe, China has always punched below its weight. The only country that will have a problem with China's rise is Japan, but those countries will inevitably fight anyway. And I don't see Japan winning the next time.

I don't know Japan and Australia are starting to do joint military exercises- so there seems an element of logic to what that American commentator said.

No one denies that China mistreats it's own citizens- it's just that I don't see them going out of their way to impose their will on anyone else (except Taiwan etc).

Basically from my limited knowledge the rural heartland is in shambles and the only thing preventing the same thing happening to the cities is that multinationals prop up the labour force giving the citizens just enough to get by. IMO it seems that China could yet have another Cultural Revolution.

 

[Stele]

If you guys really think that China has improved a lot since the civil war, then you are under a delusion. The living standard in 90% of China is still crap. Shanghai, and possibly Beijing and Canton are the only "livable" places by a western standard.

Nah, Suzhou, Hangzhou, Wuhan, Chengdu, Dalian, Dongguan, Zhuhai, Shenzhen, Harbin et al are pretty good too. And that's just the cities I've visited as an outsider, mind you. How many have you been to, Mr. Taiwan?

There is also a reason why Taiwan just absolutely refuse to merge with China...

The reason is the fear of obsolescence. I believe a Taiwan government official even stated it once, something alone the lines an island ultimately can not compete with the mainland economically, so of course Taiwan reunifying would be an act of self-marginalization. It's inevitable, however. Jiangsu, Zhejiang, and Guangdong are three provinces that will overtake Taiwan as they develop.

Hong Kong officials are slowly being replaced by some Chinese officials, and in time, Hong Kongnese will have less and less saying on how they should run. The Hong Kongnese government will be a puppet state in the future.

Besides being more tacky perhaps, I didn't notice too much difference between Hong Kong people and mainland Chinese. So...what's the problem?

They just seem to have a completely different mindsets than the west, and they are very two-faced.

Congratulations, you have just combined sophistry and stereotyping -- you have created bullshit.

I am content with the way the world runs now.

No offense, but I hope people like you are a dying breed. Content with the world now, lol, it's fucking Avici for most people on this planet.

---
Note: If any of you has ever read or seen any material that is actually objective on the Tiananmen incident, and I'll probably look like a Trotskyite saying this but, you'll understand why things unfolded as it did. The military suppression did not transpire as it was intended. Most of the fatalities took place in outer districts prior to the PLA entering the Square. Hooligans threw molotov cocktails at soldiers and were intensely provocative, and things broke down from there. The clusterfuck that ensued resulted in innocent deaths, but in modern nomenclature, those that died could be labelled as collateral damage. Deng Xiaoping and other top communist elders of course publicly supported every action that was taken, because they could not afford to look like backpedalers.

 

[Boogie]

How many have you been to, Mr. Taiwan?

It's Ms. Taiwan

 

[Stele]

My bad, if NetMapel is really a girl. "[Politics] is the province of men."