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Washington Post: Why can’t the booming video-game industry curb toxicity? ("show us your papers" solution suggested.)
- Thread starter Voost Kain
- Start date
stickkidsam
Member
Throughout history it has been shown time and time again that you cannot make the world "safer" without devolving into a blind tyranny. Censorship, Hate Speech, Safe Spaces; these things all revolve around the notion that someone gets to decide what everyone else isn't able to tolerate. Who gets to define these things and where do they get the authority? To try and stem harassment is to deny an inherent part of reality.
You can only make people stronger. Growing a thicker skin isn't meant to be dismissive of people being assholes. It's meant to build you as a person, so that if you are exposed to the shittier sides of life or people, you have a strong enough sense of self to not be bothered by them. I had a teacher who used to tell me that "Sticks and stones may break my bones but words can forever hurt me". I thought that was so profound to think of how hurtful words can be. What I didn't realize though is that it misses the entire point of the original phrase. Sure, words CAN hurt you. They can be terribly damaging for someone. However they don't HAVE to hurt you. The original phrase is one of personal empowerment and is attempting to strengthen you rather than leave you as a victim.
It sounds like your wife is not the answer to at what point words harm you (because that is entirely subjective), but rather what happens when someone doesn't develop or never understood the importance of developing a solid sense of self. My condolences to the suffering she felt, but that doesn't sound like an example we should all strive to replicate.
metalshade
Member
You know what, I regret getting involved in this, I did a terrible job of trying to communicate my point of view, and instead allowed it to fall into tit for tat.
My apologies.
I disagree with those that feel that people should just get over it, I feel that punishing the attacker is better than ignoring the attacked. I really should have just started with that.
My apologies.
I disagree with those that feel that people should just get over it, I feel that punishing the attacker is better than ignoring the attacked. I really should have just started with that.
Fuz
Banned
metalshade
Member
You make good points.
Thank you.
You are right of course, part of the therapy has been to point out that you don't HAVE to listen to the insults, or care about other peoples prejudices, it's their problem, not yours.
I just feel like it would be better if that statement didn't NEED to be made.
I wish for a utopia, which may be foolish, but I can't help but hope for better.
RedVIper
Banned
I doubt this story is real, but even if it was this isn't a video games problem, it's an inthernet problem, if you post personal info online don't be surprised that people have access to that info.
Terrible human beings will be terrible human beings. My initial thought is to publicly shame and name scumbags like these people. Not in all cases, but in some, people will act a certain way because they feel they are anonymous. Take racism for example, most are only racist and bigoted behind closed doors or on XBL because it's similar in some ways. If they were to be publicly called out manywould behave better. It's a tough problem to tackle though.
Not sure why you would think this wouldn't be real. Either way, many people don't have a choice with their info getting posted online. You bought a house? It's in an online database. Have a court case or legal issue? It's likely in a judicial database. That doesn't even factor in other ways you get online by not doing anything at all.
Not sure why you would think this wouldn't be real. Either way, many people don't have a choice with their info getting posted online. You bought a house? It's in an online database. Have a court case or legal issue? It's likely in a judicial database. That doesn't even factor in other ways you get online by not doing anything at all.
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
stickkidsam
Member
Look, this is not meant to be a tit for tat shit flinging fest..
I don't think we should ignore the attacked either, so hey we have some agreement there. The potential issue I see with punishing the "attacker" (with online harassment being the example here), is that it opens the door to tyrannical forces that can easily spiral out of control, even if they were done with the best of intent. It is a dangerous game to play.
What we can always do though, is empower the person who was hurt in the situation so that in the future, they don't need anyone but themselves to withstand it. I appreciate your take on this to dude. It's important to address how people behave and if we should do anything about it. Thanks for being willing to have that discussion.
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metalshade
Member
I definitely see the slippery slope argument has merit, too much power over freedom of speech is bad for the populace, but I hope we can also agree that maybe that should be a secondary consideration to the idea that everyone should not have to listen to or be exposed to prejudice and hatred. I just don't know how to achieve that without measures that may feel draconian to some.
Its complicated stuff. Simply saying NO to oversight is unwise, but too much oversight is stifling to everyone.
Thank you for allowing me the chance to try to explain my thoughts better.
Sqorin Hammerfarf
Banned
Here's how you stop harassment once it has started: four simple words. "Shut the fuck up". People who want to harass you are filled with righteous indignation, but they get it out once they say their thing. If you don't respond, they'll move on. But if you say something, anything, they'll keep that fire of righteous indignation lit ("I told them what to do and they didn't do it!"). You know that meme about how when you hate somebody everything they do just pisses you off ("look at that bitch, eating crackers like she owns the place"). You are that bitch. Anything you say will be judged in the least generous way possible, fueling the fire of your own witch burning.
Also, trolls thrive on attention. They want to know that they are getting to you. If you ever publicly talk about it ("I once received a death threat against my children") they see it as PRAISE. They think, "they're talking about ME! This famous person is a fan of my work!". And they'll do it more. It's like responding to spam email. Once they know you are listening, they never stop.
But you shut the fuck up, there's nothing to respond to. The fire dies. The trolls starve. Somebody else will get the crosshairs on them soon enough. Harassment is something that must constant be fed, and if it isn't, it will go away almost immediately. You need a few days for the righteous to have their say and get it out of their system, but your harassment will drop in half after a week, and in half again a week later, and it will keep dropping.
The thing you have to understand, though, is that harassment can be addictive in its own way. You open up your email have a thousand email messages, all to you. Some will be insulting and offensive and sometimes grotesque, but you'll also get a lot of support and praise for your bravery. People will offer to interview you so you can tell your side of the story, and people all over the internet will be talking about you. You can Google your name for hours and still have new material every day. You'll want to play up the victim angle to get even more support, so you'll exaggerate how much the harassment is affecting you. How much it is putting you out. And people will buy it. And it can be difficult when this all starts to wind down. When you open your email and there's no new messages, it's going to sting, even though that's what you thought you wanted. I see a lot of people who claim to be harassed intentionally doing things that leads to more harassment - because it is addictive. It's not fun, but you start to crave it.
That's why "shut the fuck up" is the best advice. It doesn't just cut off the attention to the trolls, it also cuts off the attention to yourself. It deprives you of the positive attention and support you think you want during this troubling time so that you don't find yourself craving it. It starves all beasts, including the one inside you. It's probably worth saying, but don't check your email either. If you are a public figure, you should have at least two email addresses anyway (a public and private one), so feel free to delete all the public email without even looking at it. It's also worth avoiding Wikipedia and anywhere they might be talking about your scandal. You have the fires of righteous indignation as well (you are the victim, after all), and it's best not to find a reason to light it up.
And if you are being harassed over something ideological, there is this feeling that backing down is losing. And it is. You need to decide whether the harassment is worth whatever ideology you are pushing. For a lot of people, the harassment isn't nearly as bad as they are suggesting it is, so it is an easy choice - especially if the appearance of harassment increases their ideological power. For instance, Anita Sarkeesian says gamers are all neckbeards, so when she gets harassed, it plays into her ideology. She gets interviews where she gets to talk at great length about the neckbeards. It's in her best interest to play up the size and threat of the harassment, and to continually renew it, because no matter how bad the harassment is, she gains more from it.
But for my money, there's no winners when it comes to harassment. If you have to put up with that kind of stuff just to be right on the internet, you are better off being wrong. Depending on the size and length of your harassment, the after effects can follow you around for years. It will go away eventually. But whatever you can do to make your harassment short will greatly reduce the amount of time you have to deal with the effects. So be wrong, shut the fuck up, and come back to the world slowly (or anonymously, as I did).
Also, trolls thrive on attention. They want to know that they are getting to you. If you ever publicly talk about it ("I once received a death threat against my children") they see it as PRAISE. They think, "they're talking about ME! This famous person is a fan of my work!". And they'll do it more. It's like responding to spam email. Once they know you are listening, they never stop.
But you shut the fuck up, there's nothing to respond to. The fire dies. The trolls starve. Somebody else will get the crosshairs on them soon enough. Harassment is something that must constant be fed, and if it isn't, it will go away almost immediately. You need a few days for the righteous to have their say and get it out of their system, but your harassment will drop in half after a week, and in half again a week later, and it will keep dropping.
The thing you have to understand, though, is that harassment can be addictive in its own way. You open up your email have a thousand email messages, all to you. Some will be insulting and offensive and sometimes grotesque, but you'll also get a lot of support and praise for your bravery. People will offer to interview you so you can tell your side of the story, and people all over the internet will be talking about you. You can Google your name for hours and still have new material every day. You'll want to play up the victim angle to get even more support, so you'll exaggerate how much the harassment is affecting you. How much it is putting you out. And people will buy it. And it can be difficult when this all starts to wind down. When you open your email and there's no new messages, it's going to sting, even though that's what you thought you wanted. I see a lot of people who claim to be harassed intentionally doing things that leads to more harassment - because it is addictive. It's not fun, but you start to crave it.
That's why "shut the fuck up" is the best advice. It doesn't just cut off the attention to the trolls, it also cuts off the attention to yourself. It deprives you of the positive attention and support you think you want during this troubling time so that you don't find yourself craving it. It starves all beasts, including the one inside you. It's probably worth saying, but don't check your email either. If you are a public figure, you should have at least two email addresses anyway (a public and private one), so feel free to delete all the public email without even looking at it. It's also worth avoiding Wikipedia and anywhere they might be talking about your scandal. You have the fires of righteous indignation as well (you are the victim, after all), and it's best not to find a reason to light it up.
And if you are being harassed over something ideological, there is this feeling that backing down is losing. And it is. You need to decide whether the harassment is worth whatever ideology you are pushing. For a lot of people, the harassment isn't nearly as bad as they are suggesting it is, so it is an easy choice - especially if the appearance of harassment increases their ideological power. For instance, Anita Sarkeesian says gamers are all neckbeards, so when she gets harassed, it plays into her ideology. She gets interviews where she gets to talk at great length about the neckbeards. It's in her best interest to play up the size and threat of the harassment, and to continually renew it, because no matter how bad the harassment is, she gains more from it.
But for my money, there's no winners when it comes to harassment. If you have to put up with that kind of stuff just to be right on the internet, you are better off being wrong. Depending on the size and length of your harassment, the after effects can follow you around for years. It will go away eventually. But whatever you can do to make your harassment short will greatly reduce the amount of time you have to deal with the effects. So be wrong, shut the fuck up, and come back to the world slowly (or anonymously, as I did).
Mobile Suit Gooch
Grundle: The Awakening
Everything was fine until unwanted guest started invading our safes and tried to change all the rules.
Red Crayon Aristocrat
Member
There are millions of gamers, of course you're going to get a few shitheads.
Please tell me what do people really expect? There to be not a single shithead gamer? That's like saying you wish among the human race no one would ever be a shithead, a nice idea, but also impossible.
"gamers" as a whole and "gaming culture" doesn't have any more of a problem with it than any other group of people, it's just a fact of life that some people, gamer or otherwise, is going to be a shithead.
Please tell me what do people really expect? There to be not a single shithead gamer? That's like saying you wish among the human race no one would ever be a shithead, a nice idea, but also impossible.
"gamers" as a whole and "gaming culture" doesn't have any more of a problem with it than any other group of people, it's just a fact of life that some people, gamer or otherwise, is going to be a shithead.
#Phonepunk#
Banned
interesting how the article outlines multiple crimes that were caught BECAUSE of video games. yet those are presented as examples of "toxicity" rather than what they actually are, videogames helping cops catch bad guys.
Voost Kain
Banned
By dismissing what the article did and only responding and pretending you didn't dismiss it to a post that called you out on it.
You know, I used to like Gaf a lot more when we talked about video games, not about how manly men are offended by the fact that people don’t like when they call them faggots on the internets.
Being an asshole might be free speech, but I that doesn’t mean we have to put up with your crap.
Being an asshole might be free speech, but I that doesn’t mean we have to put up with your crap.
NickFire
Member
You're 100% right. But when far left rags start attacking free speech it never stops with just the worst of the worst. You say you like GAF from days gone by, but anyone whose been here for 6 years knows damn well what happens when these narratives are allowed to fester without push back. It starts with the worst of the worst, but quickly slides to the point that even innocuous speech leads to losing accounts if just one lunatic takes issue with it. So pardon those of us who remember and don't want to let major newspapers "who are just starting a conversation" pushy Sony, Nintendo, and MS to ban anyone they don't like from their platforms.
Breakfast at Noon
Member
"The phones started ringing and a message came up o the tv..."
Fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuck off!
Fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuck off!
TheMay30thMan
Member
The whole beginning of the article sounds like an unsolved crime drama. It's thrilling, but the TV message was ultimately the thing that made it unbelievable. It's so weird to hear about how toxic the community I've been a part of for years is when I don't ever experience it. Why? Because I don't wear a mic at all times. I'm not blind to the fact that talking to strangers online will attract horrible behavior and I have the self control not to be a part of it. I mostly only talk to friends, their friends, and rarely strangers (in coop games, never competitive multiplayer). It's baffling that people think we should police other peoples behavior when the targets of online bullying can't simply control their own behavior and not put themselves in those situations in the first place. The shouldn't have to? Grow up, that's not how the real world works. The part about children is horrifying and makes me sick. But holy cow, what kind of parent lets their little kids talk to strangers online?
That's my rant.
That's my rant.
lefty1117
Gold Member
Blizzard is half way there. All they have to do is enforce "show real name" which is currently a selectable option. Same with Xbox Live. This is not difficult to do at all and I think some sort of regulation is in the future. China is doing it via their "social credit rating" system, which is a more extreme version I think than what western countries would sign up for, but some elements like removing anonymity from the Internet might be a possibility.
Sqorin Hammerfarf
Banned
China's social credit system, in addition to being the biggest bunch of bullshit, is something that would not fly in the US due to our first amendment (you can't provide conditions for expression, and what's the point of a social credit system if not to control what people say and do). It's arguable that anonymity may be part of the 4th amendment. Though it guarantees no privacy, the Supreme Court has routinely ruled that privacy is an implication of the amendment and a right protected by the Constitution. So this kind of stuff won't be coming from the US government.
It could happen at the private entity level, but my guess is that it will run afoul of other things, like exposing underaged people to online predators. It won't last long by any company that wants to stay in business long. And as someone else said, an internet Bill of Rights is inevitable (though not imminent).
Catphish
Member
I more or less think of them as the "representative" of the crybaby-left, similar to how Fox News is the "representative" of the crybaby-right.
In truth, they're both just performing for their audiences, using the well-worn (yet seemingly undefeatable) strategy of divide-and-conquer. Though in their cases, it's more like divide-and-profit, if there's actually a difference.
n0razi
Member
You can make an educated guess using public IP address and then cross referencing that with the username (many times people use the same username across different platforms and you can figure out their real name). Or you call into support chat claiming to be that person and use social engineering.
ExpandKong
Banned
In this hypothetical future you envision, what kind of punishment would I get for calling you a “fucking idiot?” Hypothetically I mean.
zenspider
Member
Fair enough.
DunDunDunpachi
Banned
China's social credit systems sounds like what is needed, eh Washington Post?
LMJ
Member
Did Wes Craven write this WP article?
Sounds like the opening to a great horror flick...
The phone rings, the young girl steadys her shaking hand and answers it slowly...
"hello" she asks bravely afraid of nothing (modern female role after all). She's answered with heavy breathing
"do you like to play scary games" the man on the other end asks in a husky voice?
she could smell his toxicity through the receiver...
Sounds like the opening to a great horror flick...
The phone rings, the young girl steadys her shaking hand and answers it slowly...
"hello" she asks bravely afraid of nothing (modern female role after all). She's answered with heavy breathing
"do you like to play scary games" the man on the other end asks in a husky voice?
she could smell his toxicity through the receiver...
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Northeastmonk
Gold Member
When I think about a kid getting harassed by playing an online game. I think about how cyber crime is huge in our day and age. It take only 15 minutes to basically cripple a huge business with hacker tools. It gets easier and easier.
I learned my lesson after playing on Xbox Live with Halo 2. It can be an awful place to be. I also don't play online much. After I lost touch with people I use to play online; the thought of playing online sorta sucks. When I do play, I play the mic turned off.
I guess we could have educated people about this crap decades ago. But now adays technology makes it easier and people are still vulnerable to it all.
I learned my lesson after playing on Xbox Live with Halo 2. It can be an awful place to be. I also don't play online much. After I lost touch with people I use to play online; the thought of playing online sorta sucks. When I do play, I play the mic turned off.
I guess we could have educated people about this crap decades ago. But now adays technology makes it easier and people are still vulnerable to it all.
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Geki-D
Banned
I'm not saying it's not possible. But as I've already said, I've never seen a reverse IP lookup that was useful enough to get any info that could lead to getting a guy's phone number and his mother's. It's possible that the cross referenced info, I just have a hard time imagining a bunch of trolls on XBL going through all that effort just to fuck with a guy for about 30 minutes one night.
The support route is possible but they generally want info in the first place to confirm your ID. it was also apparently all done during a night so I have no idea if support would even be open. And again, I just find it hard to believe they'd go through all that effort.
Grinchy
Banned
I was playing Minecraft with someone who got mad when I took his diamonds and he started flicking my lights on and off, starting my car and shutting it off, and opening cabinets and doors. I can't believe how good of a hacker he was but he probably had a P6 chip. Triple the speed of the Pentium. It's not just the chip, it has a PCI bus. RISC architecture is gonna change everything.
Anyone here could do what the alleged "hackers" did, assuming that's a real name in the article (duh). Turns out the problem is actually internet companies that irresponsibly collect and distribute personally identifying information to anyone with $30 and five minutes. I assume WaPo will be issuing a correction soon.
Northeastmonk
Gold Member
Every Windows device has a backdoor to it. I'm not an expert. I work in IT and thats the stuff that I hear all the time. His parent could have been on a Collection during some breach and someone sold their info for $45 on the dark web. Breaches happen and that gives out way more info than just a single IP. For all we know, his parents could be looking at identity theft down the road because of this.
reconminicon
Banned
Where is Toxci City? And why they want rid of it?
Duallusion
Member
What is this; a synopsis for Unfriended 3?
LMJ
Member
It's a magical place where all the neck beards in their nazi uniforms and MAGA hats roam free and troll women and minorities freely all day, and a realistic depiction of the "average gamer" is never spoken of...
Have no fear however for the mighty social media warriors and their power of feelings over logic shall tell us noble citizens what to think (unless you disagree than you're less than garbage)and keep us from being led astray...
Click your non objectifying gamer shoes 3 times and join the fun with me
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Screamer-RSA
Member
Booming? Last I saw staff are being let go left and right. Unless this "journalist" means CEO salaries?
TeamGhobad
Banned
im happy WP is being sued.
llien
Member
I thought threats like that are illegal, no need to use the flawed "but private company" argument (yes, they are private companies, but they command platforms of planetary scale, hence said companies cannot be allowed to do whatever they feel like)
klosos
Member
Ffs all platforms and even social media have block, mute and ignore features, if someone is being a wanker to you, just use the tools the platform as provided to cut all communication/interaction with said wanker. End of story
People crying on the Internet because some random avatar on a screen typed out some words, some people need to grow up big time imo.
People crying on the Internet because some random avatar on a screen typed out some words, some people need to grow up big time imo.
1.21Gigawatts
Banned
Video games are private surroundings where you have to follow the rules of the owner.
This is not a free speech issue.
If people can't behave in online games there should be ways to remove them.
The question is really how this can be enforced properly to create a surrounding where people can play without having to expect to run into assholes. And this probably can't be achieved just through bans, but it there need to be efforts to combat this toxicity from within the industry.
Some are already doing that but overall, the industry still seems very indifferent to they type of audience and type of discourse surrounding their products. Creators need to realize that the responsibility that comes with creating media for hundreds of millions of people is significant.
Kadayi
Banned
The problem is, their mental ineptitude makes them helpless and they need someone to blame. I have to imagine that the person mentioned in the OP was one of those strange individuals who when confronted with their account setup used their real name. Maybe it was even set up by the parents, either way completely clueless.
Damien Crowley
Member
On the "Message on TV"-Thing... There is a way this could happen. This Google-App (Google Home?) where you project your smartphone-screen onto a smart-TV... the thing is, when this app is in a sort of open mode, other users can log on and send messages onto your screen (had that phenomenom on a vacation last year, was a bit scary, but hilarious in the end). So... the possibility someone got the IPs of your unprotected machines and logged on to them IS there...
lukilladog
Member
Free speech is also a matter of human rights. The idea of marking people for life for some "bad" words, having a bad day, etc, is hilarious. People just need to realize that assholes are a part of life, and we all are or will be assholes from the persective of someone else, we just have to pay more attention
. An ambient where everybody is afraid to speak their mind while enjoying a game, I find inhumane... I mean, people already hate other people not using their mics But I´m not falling for this, this has to be a political diversion for something else, some real social problem, the idea of enforcing this "purity" is so pathetic that is hard to believe.
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