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[Chindogg]

Thank you for taking the time to do so. While that is indeed a very understandable fear and I in no way want to downplay it, I don't find such fears themselves to be a valid justification. After all, while those are indeed possibilities, refusing to act out of fear of them downplays our ability to fight them even if they do come to pass. It presumes that if that indeed happens, that that's the end--that that will be that, and that will be all she wrote. But that's not true. Even if that does happen (which I refuse to accept based on the efforts of other nations, but even if it does), we can then it turn fight those laws, as we should. That's absolutely no reason not to fight to begin with though. If we don't, it's already lost.

I expand on this more elsewhere when someone else brought up a very similar point:

Sessions is using existing laws to investigate white discrimination at colleges and while also requesting information of people who visit anti-Trump sites.

Any law or policy made for the overall protection of the people has the potential to be completely perverted by the opposition should they obtain power. Protest all you wish, aggressively so. Make them uncomfortable. But stop just short at changing laws that actively curb fundamental freedoms of expression in the constitution. Otherwise those freedoms will be trampled upon once precedence is set.

 

[Gorillaz]

antifa has been a thing for decades it's just the first time in American media a spolight has been shined.

It's definitely been around for awhile in euro territories

 

[Rayis]

If I had to support a violent organization, (I know, I know, antifa is not inherently violent) it'd be them. Someone has to stand up against the violent nazis.

 

[Nokterian]

Anyway if people are OK with a Nazi in the White House, who thinks KKK,White Supremacist and Neo Nazi's are also 'nice people'. People who have an ideology to kill millions for 'ethnic cleansing' who in the end will kill you.

And you are not against fascism, be my guest. If you learned anything from history this shit needs to be fought. Racism,fascism,bigotry,hatred that has no place in this world.

Your part of anti fascism or your part of being a nazi participant because you remain silent and silent majority will get hit. You cannot let this overrun, do not let history repeat itself.

Nazi's are scum, no more no less..

 

[AnotherDayAnotherDollar]

are you not uncomfortable with the fact that this makes you a genocide apologist

The fact that I'm uncomfortable with both antifa and the alt right and wouldn't be caught within eyesight of either one of them, and yes, I think they are comparable in how intolerant and violent they are, makes me a genocide apologist? Okay then.....

 

[mlclmtckr]

yes, I think they are comparable in how intolerant and violent they are, makes me a genocide apologist

okay cool glad we're on the same page

 

[Psychoward]

The fact that I'm uncomfortable with both antifa and the alt right and wouldn't be caught within eyesight of either one of them, and yes, I think they are comparable in how intolerant and violent they are, makes me a genocide apologist? Okay then.....

I don't agree with him but saying they're equally as intolerant and violent as neo-nazis is not just stupid, it's factually wrong.

 

[Sibylus]

Antifa has existed as long as fascism has... and that's a good thing. It's our first line of defense against violence and terror the state can't (or won't) touch.

And as the US goes, I trust antifa folks, many of whom are working class volunteers who sacrifice and risk all for folks like me, over a professional, insular police force that profits from seizure of property and has a serious problem with infiltration by white supremacists. If I was more able-bodied, good odds I'd be out there with the antifa.

 

[BlueTsunami]

The fact that I'm uncomfortable with both antifa and the alt right and wouldn't be caught within eyesight of either one of them, and yes, I think they are comparable in how intolerant and violent they are, makes me a genocide apologist? Okay then.....

What makes Antifa and Alt Right comparable when you realize the Alt Right are Nazi sympathisers? To straight up Neo Nazis with a shiny new name. And take a step back from your knee-jerk reaction to violence and consider the reason for violence by each side. This is absolutely not a both sides situation.

 

[Gunblade47]

At the end of the day I think the protests would've been far worse if antifa weren't there as a force to drive the neo-nazis back. They [the neo-nazis] were out there to terrorize any opposition to their supremacist ideals and were met with an opposition they did not expect from the so called "tolerant left".

Unfortunately I see a new spin on the name antifa. Alt-right conveniently replacing the "fascist" bit for "first-amendment".

 

[Hierophant]

The fact that I'm uncomfortable with both antifa and the alt right and wouldn't be caught within eyesight of either one of them, and yes, I think they are comparable in how intolerant and violent they are, makes me a genocide apologist? Okay then.....

i can tell you at least one person has died from a nazi attack

how many people have antifa killed in the united states?
give me a real number

 

[HarryHengst]

Uh, you guys are dead wrong. You might be thinking of "alt-left" which is indeed a made up term. But antifa has been around for decades and it's a term they chose for themselves.

Just because you are ignorant about them doesn't mean they weren't around... -_-

Alt-left apparently came from centrists who could not comprehend of a world where alt-right exists but without the balancing of an alt-left, so they made one up.

http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/08/16/what-is-alt-left-myth-215496

 

[Wrestlemania]

If the "Antifa" of America truly are liberal saints they picked a horrible moniker to appropriate. These guys in Europe are huge assholes who apply their "violent resistance" to capitalist events like the G20 and oppose war efforts vs. ISIS. I think many of them are anarchists of various types, who have a long tradition in Europe.

My suggestion: call your anti-trump resistance something else.

We’re they really the ones who rioted at the G20? Because I know that the right wing press really wanted to push the narrative that all he violence and vandalism was done under the banner of anti-fascism, but I’ve yet to see any believable evidence that it wasn’t one of the many other groups who protested the G20.

I’d really like someone to produce some trustworthy evidence of the acts committed under the banner of Antifa that lead them to believe that the entire movement should be vilified, because it’s incredibly hard to find due to the swathes of utter bullshit you get searching for anything Antifa related.

 

[HarryHengst]

If the "Antifa" of America truly are liberal saints they picked a horrible moniker to appropriate. These guys in Europe are huge assholes who apply their "violent resistance" to capitalist events like the G20 and oppose war efforts vs. ISIS. I think many of them are anarchists of various types, who have a long tradition in Europe.

My suggestion: call your anti-trump resistance something else.

Oh no, a few smashed windows protesting a system that literally uses slave labour.

 

[Brat-Sampson]

Ladies and gentlemen, Antifa.

 

[Westbahnhof]

First of all: Yes. They are better than nazis, they are better than the alt-right.

But they have their fair share of extremists, and extremists are always extremists:
I once met an anarchist calling for violent removal of religion "in the most extreme way possible".
Before that, he was antifa, calling for violence against the right.
Before that, he was a skinhead, calling for violence against minorities.

He told me this, and didn't see anything wrong with it.

This seems to be a not uncommon thing, just angry young people, which leads to purely destructive behavior.

Edit: I feel like Europeans may have a different point of view than the Americans who are new to this term.
Take what TanookiTom said in a previous thread, for example:

You cannot generalize the Antifa, but if we do, I generally made negative experiences with them.

Not sure if this is specifically about the U.S., but I live in Berlin in the Antifa's core neighborhood.

They pretend to be political but the only thing they ever do is fight with the police and set random people's cars on fire. So the only thing they ever achieve is a never ending circle of violence with the police and damaging innocent peoples property.

They are not ever violent against the public though and the situation is greatly exaggerated by local politics and the police.

In general I'd say they are much too focused on engaging in violence with Nazis which is having zero or even adverse political effects.

 

[HarryHengst]

First of all: Yes. They are better than nazis, they are better than the alt-right.

But they have their fair share of extremists, and extremists are always extremists:
I once met an anarchist calling for violent removal of religion "in the most extreme way possible".
Before that, he was antifa, calling for violence against the right.
Before that, he was a skinhead, calling for violence against minorities.

He told me this, and didn't see anything wrong with it.

Seems you met an idiot who was just looking for a way to express his rage instead of someone having actual convictions.

 

[Westbahnhof]

Seems you met an idiot who was just looking for a way to express his rage instead of someone having actual convictions.

If you think he is the only one, you are deluding yourself.
Extreme movements attract people like this.

And even if that had been a unique scenario, it was just an anecdote showing one problem I have with them.

In the end, I agree with TanookiTom.

Stuff like breaking into a migration judges house, vandalizing it and then putting his personal information online is, in my opinion, not productive.
Neither is putting a literal bounty on some right-wing politician, saying you'll pay anyone who attacks him.

In my eyes, while they have done good and important things, the Antifa has a history of going too far.
Again, this doesn't mean they aren't much better than nazis.
They clearly are, and they are not a monolith. But they do have their problems.

 

[Audioboxer]

Gotta take and own the good with the bad. When you have a movement with no centralized leadership or even fairly strict guidelines/codes of ethics, you get a lot of the anarchists or whatever you want to call them deciding it's fair game to just keep turning to destruction and violence.

The professor Eric Clanton being the right's favourite high profile example of a member of Antifa getting violent and being arrested for it

Update, May 25, 4:04 p.m. BPD released a prepared statement Thursday about the Clanton arrest noting that the homicide team handled the case ”Due to the severity of these felonious assaults." BPD described the assaults as ”violent": ”Some of these assaults were captured on video and viewed heavily on social media. In the assaults, Clanton was seen striking people in the head with a U shaped bicycle lock causing significant injuries to the victims."

http://www.berkeleyside.com/2017/05/24/berkeley-police-arrest-eric-clanton-bike-lock-assaults/

Whenever you have people who cover their faces to avoid having to stay inside the law, you've potentially got a recipe for disaster.

Just remember at any given protest the vast majority being noisy, vocal, holding up signs and more are not Antifa, so there is no need to give Antifa super powers in your mind and think they're doing much more than your ordinary protestor. Then again, when all it seems to take to say your are Antifa is to call yourself Antifa, then you'll find many good people among the ranks too potentially.

Anyone who truly goes down the path of Communism though, yeah, no thanks.

 

[nelsonroyale]

The idea that anti-fasicts as a group are equivalent to fascists, because they are both willing to resort to violence and are in opposition, is generally a form of false equivalence. Their beliefs set them apart. Anti fascists act as a resistent groups to fascists ...Fascists on the other hand are mainly about articulating a worldview which embraces various forms of genocide. Antifascists themselves conform to various worldviews, many of which advocate environmentalism, etc. They are engaging in politics, but they are not a political platform per se. Fascists generally claim to be.

I respect some anti fascists for being willing to stand up for values that often appeal for a broader humanity. Fascits views are shite. A disgusting response to individual and social issues.

 

[grumble]

"Everyone is antifa as long as you hate fascism" is a really dumb statement that muddies the waters around a movement that's relatively new to US politics, so I'd encourage people to stop dropping that one.

Not everyone who supports a republic is a Republican. Not everyone who likes living is pro-life. Not everyone who likes living in a society is a socialist. Not everyone opposed to fascism is antifa.

I think antifa is an important force for good, but their tactics can be criticized on a case-by-case basis. But their role in Charlottesville is 100% "good shit" as far as I know.

That is true, but the antifa movement isn't a monolith either. There isn't really a 'them' in the way the media is portraying it.

 

[Nerazar]

Ladies and gentlemen, Antifa.

Ladies and gentlemen, Antifa

There is no glory in violence and we don't need a militant wing to make our voices heard. The argument that "Hitler could just have been punched into submission" while the movement was small is illogical, because then just another violent group would have gotten out on top. We don't want a second Weimar in which just random militias, communists, nazis, fascists and whoever run around and scare and hurt people.

We have to call out politically motivated violence all the time, especially from our side as well. Because each time a Nazi gets punched, we lose support. And if you punch someone, you will never change their beliefs or ways. And this is what we have to do.

So, stop protecting violent people and glorifying violent actions like the Nazis do with "Take our country back!".

We're all anti-fascists, but we should not be antifa at all. Antifa is the left fascist movement and given enough power, they will terrorize everyone like any violent group will.

That being said: Self-defense is our right. But Antifa is in attack mode and aiming at basically anyone who opposes their views. And that sounds strangely familiar to some groups we detest.

 

[O.v.e.rlord]

^fucking dam. Great post!

Not really a nice bunch from what I've seen.

Windows seem to be their most bitter enemies.

^ thats fucking funny! XD

 

[Staf]

Ladies and gentlemen, Antifa

There is no glory in violence and we don't need a militant wing to make our voices heard. The argument that "Hitler could just have been punched into submission" while the movement was small is illogical, because then just another violent group would have gotten out on top. We don't want a second Weimar in which just random militias, communists, nazis, fascists and whoever run around and scare and hurt people.

We have to call out politically motivated violence all the time, especially from our side as well. Because each time a Nazi gets punched, we lose support. And if you punch someone, you will never change their beliefs or ways. And this is what we have to do.

So, stop protecting violent people and glorifying violent actions like the Nazis do with "Take our country back!".

We're all anti-fascists, but we should not be antifa at all. Antifa is the left fascist movement and given enough power, they will terrorize everyone like any violent group will.

That being said: Self-defense is our right. But Antifa is in attack mode and aiming at basically anyone who opposes their views. And that sounds strangely familiar to some groups we detest.

Well said.

 

[Wrestlemania]

Because each time a Nazi gets punched, we lose support.

Really? Would be interested in seeing what you're basing that on. It certainly results in a lot of pearl clutching about whether violence against Nazis is really justified, but I haven't seen anything to suggest "we" lose support. People fucking loved Richard Spencer getting punched.

Also: again using the G20 protests as evidence against Antifa, ignoring that there are far more people involved in those than just Antifa, so it's absurd to lay the blame on them.

 

[O.v.e.rlord]

Really?.

Yes, really.

 

[Zen_Arcade]

Yes, really.

Prove it.

 

[Captain Smoker]

I get the feeling that you Murricans have a totally different perception of this thing compared to Europeans, especially Germans.

 

[cromofo]

We're all anti-fascists, but we should not be antifa at all. Antifa is the left fascist movement and given enough power, they will terrorize everyone like any violent group will.

That being said: Self-defense is our right. But Antifa is in attack mode and aiming at basically anyone who opposes their views. And that sounds strangely familiar to some groups we detest.

This.

 

[O.v.e.rlord]

Prove it.

Recent white people power march

 

[IaN_GAF]

I get the feeling that you Murricans have a totally different perception of this thing compared to Europeans, especially Germans.

Absolutely. The image that is being created at the moment has nothing to do with the actual Antifa members I got to know.

 

[Captain Smoker]

Absolutely. The image that is being created at the moment has nothing to do with the actual Antifa members I got to know.

Yeah, here in Germany I never looked to ANTIFA dudes as some kind of heroes, the only common thing that most people have with them is that they hate Nazis.

Left and right (every) extremism can go to hell.

 

[AnotherDayAnotherDollar]

okay cool glad we're on the same page

Taking a quote out of context. Classy.

 

[Zen_Arcade]

Recent white people power march

The reason the recent White power march happened is because the current administration is sympathetic towards them and the Government shifted funds and focus away from tracking those assholes in favor of focusing more on Islamic terrorism. It happened because the Government has cultivated an environment for them to feel emboldened.

This ralley would have happened regardless of if Richard Spencer got punched or not. Don't be fucking naive.

Punching Nazis recently resulted in:

- Richard Spencer's career becoming more of a joke.
- Other rallies to get cancelled.
- The ACLU changing their stances on supporting Nazis ability to gather.
- White supremacist organizations suddenly "Bowing out" of upcoming rallies.

And probably plenty of other benefits that aren't even coming to mind at the moment.

 

[O.v.e.rlord]

The reason the recent White power march happened is because the current administration is sympathetic towards them and the Government shifted funds and focus away from tracking those assholes in favor of focusing more on Islamic terrorism. It happened because the Government has cultivated an environment for them to feel emboldened.

This ralley would have happened regardless of if Richard Spencer got punched or not. Don't be fucking naive.

Punching Nazis recently resulted in:

- Richard Spencer's career becoming more of a joke.
- Other rallies to get cancelled.
- The ACLU changing their stances on supporting Nazis ability to gather.
- White supremacist organizations suddenly "Bowing out" of upcoming rallies.

And probably plenty of other benefits that aren't even coming to mind at the moment.

Or after Richard Spencer got punched, and used himself as a rally point to influence others to join him? Cause I think it's that.

What I think Richard Spencer said to other white people "See that, they will use violence to silence me! Don't think for a second they won't use it against you to do the same"

 

[Siegcram]

lol @ all the enlightened fence-sitters agreeing with a dude unironically using "fascist left"

 

[Zen_Arcade]

Or after Richard Spencer got punched, and used himself as a rally point to influence others to join him? Cause I think it's that.

What I think Richard Spencer said to other white people "See that, they will use violence to silence me! Don't think for a second they won't use it against you to do the same"

Again, prove it.

Anyone who gets so mad at people punching a Nazi that they're willing to go march with Nazis was already a Nazi.

 

[theCalamity]

I mean once you ban Nazi speech next thing you know there'll be nuclear holocaust\

Again, prove it.

Anyone who gets so mad at people punching a Nazi that they're willing to go march with Nazis was already a Nazi.

Uh don't you know that the Nazis are nonviolent? Duh.

 

[Staf]

Again, prove it.

Anyone who gets so mad at people punching a Nazi that they're willing to go march with Nazis was already a Nazi.

He should prove his theory and if he fails yours is correct i assume?

 

[HarryHengst]

Ladies and gentlemen, Antifa

There is no glory in violence and we don't need a militant wing to make our voices heard. The argument that "Hitler could just have been punched into submission" while the movement was small is illogical, because then just another violent group would have gotten out on top. We don't want a second Weimar in which just random militias, communists, nazis, fascists and whoever run around and scare and hurt people.

We have to call out politically motivated violence all the time, especially from our side as well. Because each time a Nazi gets punched, we lose support. And if you punch someone, you will never change their beliefs or ways. And this is what we have to do.

So, stop protecting violent people and glorifying violent actions like the Nazis do with "Take our country back!".

We're all anti-fascists, but we should not be antifa at all. Antifa is the left fascist movement and given enough power, they will terrorize everyone like any violent group will.

That being said: Self-defense is our right. But Antifa is in attack mode and aiming at basically anyone who opposes their views. And that sounds strangely familiar to some groups we detest.

Antifa doesnt attack anyone who opposes their views. They attack nazi's and fascists. If you are one of those then yes, i guess they attack you because you oppose their views. But hey, just dont be nazi! And who the fuck cares if you dont change a nazi's believe or ways. All that has to be changed is for them to be too scared to go outside in big groups like they did recently.

And if it isnt the most liberal centrist thing to think that literal nazi's will just go away if you ask them kindly. Or that we should tolerate the nazi's because hey, if not them then some other group so might as well be nazi's we allow to march through the streets packing enough weapons to be their own military group, intimidating anyone who isnt a white christian!

 

[O.v.e.rlord]

Again, prove it.

Anyone who gets so mad at people punching a Nazi that they're willing to go march with Nazis was already a Nazi.

Again white people power march. The fuck were these 10 years ago that existed in such number and that they label themselves as fucking white nationalist. At one point they were just avg joe that watch political violence take place. And picked a side were they thought they can have their voices heard.

 

[theCalamity]

We must strive to be nonviolent and to follow the law. We must admonish the slave rebel who punched his owner just as much as the slaver who whips him. Both forms of violence is unacceptable.

Again white people power march. The fuck were these 10 years ago that existed in such number and that they label themselves as fucking white nationalist. At one point they were just avg joe that watch political violence take place. And picked a side were they thought they can have their voices heard.

Yes, people become Nazis to have their voices heard. In a way, all of us want to be heard. All of us want to be Nazis.

 

[cromofo]

Antifa doesnt attack anyone who opposes their views. They attack nazi's and fascists. If you are one of those then yes, i guess they attack you because you oppose their views. But hey, just dont be nazi! And who the fuck cares if you dont change a nazi's believe or ways. All that has to be changed is for them to be too scared to go outside in big groups like they did recently.

And if it isnt the most liberal centrist thing to think that literal nazi's will just go away if you ask them kindly. Or that we should tolerate the nazi's because hey, if not them then some other group so might as well be nazi's we allow to march through the streets packing enough weapons to be their own military group, intimidating anyone who isnt a white christian!

I'd gladly punch a Nazi, but I'm not Antifa. Antifa punching Nazis could be seen as a "positive" thing, but Antifa is not all about punching Nazis and fascists. You'd have to be naive to believe that.

You on the other hand, have a hammer and sickle avatar, representing a murderous and opressive regime. Even a little heart is made from the sickle, how cute.

Says a lot.

 

[Zen_Arcade]

He should prove his theory and if he fails yours is correct i assume?

No, but at the very least it shows that he's talking out of his ass and shouldn't be listened to.

If someone has a theory, and they can't prove that theory, then they need to find a better way to prove people that their ideology is the correct way of thinking.

 

[HarryHengst]

Again white people power march. The fuck were these 10 years ago that existed in such number and that they label themselves as fucking white nationalist. At one point they were just avg joe that watch political violence take place. And picked a side were they thought they can have their voices heard.

They get bolstered by having president fucking Trump not only being elected but refusing to call them out for what they are. You had sites like the daily stormer and stormfront praising Trump for his refusal to name them nazi's. That is what is causing this, not a few nazi's getting punched in the face. Liberals going ''no you cant punch a nazi, however i will die defending his right to call jews the worst and'' only supports them.

 

[Siegcram]

Again white people power march. The fuck were these 10 years ago that existed in such number and that they label themselves as fucking white nationalist. At one point they were just avg joe that watch political violence take place. And picked a side were they thought they can have their voices heard.

That presumes the political violence in the US originated from the left. Which is patently false.

 

[Hashmal_Bringer_of_Order]

I'd gladly punch a Nazi, but I'm not Antifa. Antifa punching Nazis could be seen as a "positive" thing, but Antifa is not all about punching Nazis and fascists. You'd have to be naive to believe that.

You on the other hand, have a hammer and sickle avatar, representing a murderous and opressive regime. Even a little heart is made from the sickle, how cute.

Says a lot.

The Antifa of Europe are the conceptual descendants of the X-Shirt partisan militias of the early 20th century in Germany and elsewhere from when democracy was particularly fragile. They may not be fascists (obviously), but they cover everything else from communists to anarchists and everything in between. I again have no idea why american anti-trump want to be associated with this.

 

[Zen_Arcade]

Again white people power march. The fuck were these 10 years ago that existed in such number and that they label themselves as fucking white nationalist. At one point they were just avg joe that watch political violence take place. And picked a side were they thought they can have their voices heard.

Again, those people were already Nazis. They were just Nazis that hadn't taken to the streets yet.

No peace loving human being sees a Nazi get punched and says "Oh my God, they punched that Nazi. I'm against violence, and that guy used violence against a Nazi, so the most logical thing to do is stand by the Nazis getting punched, despite the fact that what Nazis want is the genocide of an entire race of people, which is violence that's a billion times more extreme than what I was mad about when I joined them."

 

[cromofo]

The Antifa of Europe are the conceptual descendants of the X-Shirt partisan militias of the early 20th century in Germany and elsewhere from when democracy was particularly fragile. They may not be fascists (obviously), but they cover everything else from communists to anarchists and everything in between. I again have no idea why american anti-trump want to be associated with this.

I think the group and the term is newish for Americans and their politics as it stands and so if "they punch Nazis, they must be great".

They'll come along soon enough.

 

[HarryHengst]

I'd gladly punch a Nazi, but I'm not Antifa. Antifa punching Nazis could be seen as a "positive" thing, but Antifa is not all about punching Nazis and fascists. You'd have to be naive to believe that.

You on the other hand, have a hammer and sickle avatar, representing a murderous and opressive regime. Even a little heart is made from the sickle, how cute.

Says a lot.

I guess i am guilty of thinking that fully automated luxury gay space communism is better than the fully manual poverty-stricken heterosexual terrestrial capitalism that we have now, yes.