More Fun To Compute
Member
Be honest you wouldn't care or notice them at all to give any sympathy if they didn't do something dumb like join an extremist group.
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We need to talk about the online radicalisation of young, white men
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Be honest you wouldn't care or notice them at all to give any sympathy if they didn't do something dumb like join an extremist group.
CountAntonius
Member
It's not about sympathy it's about diagnosing the issues that lead people into these types of groups in hopes of preventing more.
I'm with you on dropping those terms as insults. I think a lot of people throw those around without considering the greater implications. I've seen a lot of people in feminist circles moving away from them but they still get used a lot and they're harmful.
Agreed. This is a huge issue that needs to be addressed. One possible aspect could be school systems removing the emphasis on aggressive team sports.
Absolutely. We define manhood by violence, sex, status and aggression. Anger often the only emotion they've been socialized to express. It's an issue not talked about enough.
International Iron Man
Banned
Yes. Poor middle class white men that aren't having the whole world bend over for them anymore. Boo hoo for them.
Maybe white people should ask themselves how they got the idea in their heads that they are owed everything in the first place.
4 is a cutie
Banned
These losers can go buy a pack of fleshlights for all I care. The solution to frustrated weirdos shouldn't be to let them loose on prostitutes like they're some disposable commodity
victreeb3l
Member
Hyper masculinity is toxic
KO Traveling Hobo
Member
I'm not saying that we should feel bad for the people who buy into the rhetoric, but to sympathize and address some of the people who the rhetoric is being aimed at.
Thats right keep stoking the flames.
More Fun To Compute
Member
I agree with you all humans are worthless and the planet will be better after god emperor trump cleanses it.
While sports have a culture of toxic masculinity, in my experience they tend to not be of the type to lead to white nationalism or any of that dumb shit. A terrible shithead is a terrible shithead regardless of sports See: Rae Carruth or Terrell Suggs
Now, if these people's problem stems from the fact they ain't dicking down anybody...da fuck? It ain't that serious bro. Treat women with respect, don't be an asshole all the time or really ever, don't be a "nice guy", don't act like they owe yo ass something, because they don't.
Now, if these people's problem stems from the fact they ain't dicking down anybody...da fuck? It ain't that serious bro. Treat women with respect, don't be an asshole all the time or really ever, don't be a "nice guy", don't act like they owe yo ass something, because they don't.
everyday math
Banned
There's plenty of ways to voice their grievances without beig destructive.
Err I'm like 99% sure Aaronology is Black. I'm an idiot if wrong of course. He's also one of my favorite posters because the dude puts in the effort with research and information to back up his posts.
How do you propose to circumvent the white privilege barrier to get white people to think introspectively about themselves? Because it doesnt just happen spontaneously.
International Iron Man
Banned
We should do that after America manages to find some for the young black males they lock up at disproportionate levels and deprive economically and socially.
Media.
For generations TV, movies, books and music have created an unrealistic stereotype of what life is like for your average middle class white male. When reality falls drastically short of these stereotypes it is easy to see why low self esteemed individuals gravitate to these fringe groups.
Aaronology
Member
White supremacy is the problem. Much of white society in America is also arguably the problem. White people are not. It's difficult at times to remember to make that distinction, because so much of American's problems stem from the failures of white society to address bigotry and racism. But all the same, it's a distinction that has to be made. As you reminded a gaffer earlier, Black History Month is here. So let me state that I think it's an insult to civil rights and to individuals far more diplomatic than you to act like we have never been able to gain the support of a significant portion of white America, and that this support was not pivotal. It was, we have, and addressing this new wave of nationalism demands we continue to do so.
I am not going to address your insinuation that I'm an alt-righter. That you made it says more about you and how closely you follow these topics on GAF than I could hope to do in a rejoinder. I will, again, remind you that there are plenty of white people "lifting fingers" to address this very serious problem bubbling within America. Opening a discussion about the alt-right with the equivalent of "white people don't care" might make you feel good and it might vent some legitimate frustration with white America, but it's offensively inaccurate.
This time, no gif, just some photos:
Look at all those lifted fingers, IIM. This is your country.
Actually I really like that gif so here it is again:
CountAntonius
Member
The reason these white kids tend to join these groups isn't because they were initially racist or women hating but because these groups gave them something to blame for their frustrations. Much like other radicalized terrorists who had friends of other races only to be manipulated into hating and hurting those they once cared for.
International Iron Man
Banned
It doesn't happen at all, which is the crux of the issue.
Hell, I haven't seen a single poster list white supremacy and white culture always centering whiteness and white males specifically as a bulk of the issue, when white men have been terrorizing minorities for centuries. Blaming it on a lack of sex is folly, considering that doesn't explain the KKK or anything else.
Swing and a miss. White kids were joining groups like this before the internet.
Other races have men with the same problems plus having to deal with white supremacy and somehow don't become racial nationalists, so maybe it has something to do with the fact that this country caters everything exclusively to white men and placing them on a pedestal, and has for centuries.
Talk about putting words in people's mouth. "Let them loose." Come the fuck on, no one is advocating abuse of women and you damn well know it.
That sumbitch for real got the motherfuckin Sonic Rings knocked outta his ass
Dongs Macabre
aka Daedalos42
And absolving them of any blame is the solution?
More Fun To Compute
Member
I don't disagree but I have heard plenty of minority activists saying that the only way to get your grievances heard is by being destructive and not being challenged on it. It's the Zeitgeist. If you want a quick and definite response then violence has always been the answer. But I'm a pacifist.
psychowave
Member
What else would you call forcing prostitutes to have sex with nazis so that they stop bothering everyone else?
Roland_Gunner
Member
Even before the alt-right blew up, Dan Savage argued that one of the benefits of legalizing sex work is that it gives men who can't attract someone an outlet for their sexual desires. No one should be forced into that situation but in many societies men not having access to sexual partners creates problems. There's a lot of reason to think Islamic fundamentalism is driven by unhealthy attitudes towards women and sexuality.
For people asking what about 100 years ago, one answer is that sex work was much more common because women had so few opportunities. I'm not saying its a complete solution, or that there aren't substantial downsides, but IMO its something worth looking at.
Coffee Dog
Banned
Nobody's going to be forced, nobody even implied they would be forced. Why are you inserting that?
The problem is that there will always be frustrations. Whether it's because of unemployment, depression, or sexual frustration.
PatThePassive
Member
We need those sex bots that's the only solution.
Who said that?
psychowave
Member
Men aren't entitled to sex. Women don't have to give them sex so that they hopefully don't go berserk and start harassing minorities. If women can go by without sex and not become nazis, so can men. Full stop.
4 is a cutie
Banned
Sorry. I meant "Let frustrated men have access to sex workers and then their deep misogynistic views will go away
". A better solution is to have them learn not to hold shithead views and do something productive with their lives; some posters mentioned sports as one way
KO Traveling Hobo
Member
The problem isn't that they aren't getting laid. The problem is that they are being mocked and bullied for not getting laid.
Even your post contributes to this by emphasizing how easy it is to get laid - for them it isn't easy, because they lack some of the basic social tools that you and I have. If it is so easy and simple, then how fucking inadequate and pathetic must they be to fail at it?
To be clear, I'm not pointing my finger at you personally. It's a societal problem.
everyday math
Banned
I would say you were right if not for the fact about how White America has continually look down on our Minority people.
One is the majority with a good chance of never going to jail for made up reasons. Never having to worry about putting their name or race down on a resume and being turned down just for that. Not having police racially profile you. Never being turned down for a raise, because of race or gender. Etc
Audioboxer
Member
Ehhhh, not that I'm mr prude around sex work, I'm always fairly liberal in saying if you consent you can do as you please with your body. The issue with sex work is always the industry that tends to latch onto it, and the MASS of regulation and big brother time and effort the government needs to put into it.
As I alluded to earlier, the real solutions start with education in schools around sex, and normalising it so it's not something to be embarrassed or ashamed about. That's really fucking hard to do because SO many parents get in the way of schools, and now there's always someone getting offended a penis or vagina was shown. Our attitudes at large around sex/nudity for our youths is absolutely pathetic. As is often seen religious "reasons" for suppression tends to lead to absolutely barbaric and inhumane atrocities all throughout history, and still in this current day and age. Education needs improved, alongside better social education and interaction in schools. Sadly some kids find it hard on their own to make friends, and while they can't be forced, schools need to do all they can. As well as smartly tackle bullying.
If kids get poor sex ed then that starts the ball rolling to masculinity gone wrong. I always "pimp" this documentary on GAF, but everyone should try and see it ~ http://www.channel4.com/programmes/sex-in-class
I also think the problem is it's rare that their male friends call them out on their BS. But the thing is, when you do, they actually stop if they like you as a friend. These are guys who rarely had to earn their keeps so it stops them in their track when someone has the balls to challenge their messed up ideas.
Don't shut these people out if you can reach out to them. I know, I know, minority is not obliged to fix their problems but as minority, I feel that if I can, why won't I? Hopefully it'll open their eyes and stop wrong ideas dead in their track before it can completely poison the well.
The key is to reach out and challenge at the same time. Don't let them get away with BS but don't push them away either.
International Iron Man
Banned
Nowhere in there does he say it was easy.
What he did say was sex isn't that serious.
If you're a grown ass adult still being bullied over not having sex, I have to ask: BY WHO?
Like, no one does that outside of high school. People then have bills and real shit to worry about.
Maybe life is so goddamn good in white America they don't have to worry about these things, but what kind of adults with rent and shit to pay have time to worry about how someone else aint fuckin?
Hyper-masculinity is toxic because it is completely at odds with our current society and the standards and conduct we consider to be normal.
The only way I see preventing this radicalization of young white men is through educational and social programs designed to teach and socialize these young men how to behave in modern society. As it stands too many are isolated due to computers and the internet, leading to a complete lack of social etiquette and understanding of the opposite sex. This then leads to their failings in social situations, leading to frustration and aggression which is used to radicalize them.
The only way I see preventing this radicalization of young white men is through educational and social programs designed to teach and socialize these young men how to behave in modern society. As it stands too many are isolated due to computers and the internet, leading to a complete lack of social etiquette and understanding of the opposite sex. This then leads to their failings in social situations, leading to frustration and aggression which is used to radicalize them.
Messofanego
Banned
One thing definitely not to do is the usual deflection towards other races like in this post. Focus on just white people for a change instead of comparing.
That's because the entire idea of American exceptionalism, or establishing the "American dream" and all of its processes, is literally steeped in whiteness. Its the foremost defining feature of the traditional American patriarchy --- to be white and male. I don't have a problem admitting that.
What I want to know is how is me admitting white culture is the defining feature, instead of a partial one, going to benefit the conversation besides being a medal that I can say makes me extraordinarily introspective?
What else am I looking to do by primarily criticising white culture to the detriment of any other potential causes? Because it seems to me like you just want an "I told you so" narrative here.
psychowave
Member
Apparently white men turning into nazis because they're "bullied" for not having enough sex is understandable, but god forbid a black person utter the words "white privilege" lol
International Iron Man
Banned
I rather our finite resources not be put even more into white men with virtually every advantage already and into communities who have been dicked over by the aforementioned groups parents, grandparents, etc.
How is saying "its sex!" or "its isolation" benefiting the conversation, considering its historically inaccurate as hell?
Admitting the problem is the first step to actually fixing the problem. Deflecting the blame from white people, whiteness, and white supremacy, is how we ended up here in 2017.
Aaronology
Member
Aye.
Years ago I very naively attempted to befriend someone who self identified as a white supremacist. It didn't end well, and forever poisoned the notion of trying to reach out and talk to these people for me. But what I did gain from that relationship was an insight into how lonely, angry and frustrated many of these people are. There are definitely parallels between them and how Islamic terrorists are radicalized.
More Fun To Compute
Member
So in your opinion what is the smallest humiliation or failure in life you can experience which justifies violence while preserving sympathy?
CountAntonius
Member
No they become gang members like many of the people I knew growing up and become lost to that as well. Because they hopeless and are promised power and relevancy. I'm Mexican and I don't absolve white people from the shit they do. You're seeing this as making excuses rather than trying to find a cause. They become white supremacists because that's what targets them. White people aren't the only ones who become radicalized but the HUGE problem is they are the only ones who's leaders and movements aren't being called terrorists or thugs by those in power here. Instead they hide behind the freedom of speech free to manipulate people at their will with no persecution whatsoever because like you said everything has catered to them.
User Name Here
Member
Wow. Really? That's fascinating. And there is kind of a bad joke there about the committing a violent act and getting virgins after you die.
Completely agree, I'm merely commenting on the issue in the OP. Of course this is a symptom of white privilege and I don't have sympathy towards these people, but I do think that educational/socializing programs could be useful, not only for the socializing of these groups in relation to women, but also minority groups. The fact they are isolated is also a reason for their lack of empathy towards minority groups in general.
everyday math
Banned
This is true. Bulling sucks. I think we've all experienced it one time or another.
If the parents are truly part of their lives they need to recognize self isolation and nip it in the butt fast. Thats one thing that can help.
I may be angry at these people as my posts sound. As someone who's experienced what they do first hand.
In the end these men/boys can still be saved. But they need to be taken from their shell. And basically re-socialized from the ground up. I'd like to emphasize I will not ever budge with disagreeing on saying giving them sex is the best way.
Audioboxer
Member
Yes it's true. As always within biology/genes/social "makeup" there are scales, outliers and those that defy "all reason". However, on average, you can apply scientific/biological data that will line-up with the bulk of populations. As I just said above often when you get something as ideologically strong as religion stand in the way of sex/sexual nature, you end up with humans doing horrific/barbaric things. Either to oppress others or if they're oppressed themselves they get further agitated and then act out in some way.
As much as many want to think they are "above" their evolutionary meat wagons, they aren't. We're a sexual species, and unless you are an outlier of some sorts, repression and lack of interaction sexually can lead to diminished mental health. On top of that socialisation and societal expectations, upbringing, education and a whole host of other factors can start to escalate a "ticking emotional bomb".
If only there was a shrink to go around EVERY "problematic" person... Instead we try to dish out far too many anti-depressants to try and solve issues that need education and talking. Hence in part why many of these males end up grouping together in "tribal" behaviour. They seek a feeling of belonging, self-worth and that someone is listening to them. Just so happens when you get many angry, frustrated and screwed up males together they don't hash out problems... but try to all appear "manly"/sane and use their aggression on victims they bully. The age old bully complex, of the bully themselves is bullied by someone else/messed up and takes it out on someone "below" them on the pecking order.
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