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Welcome to the end of American civilization: $4 a gallon gas on the way.
- Thread starter Tommie Hu$tle
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Himuro said:
Gas check time... ok folks list your location/local gas prices... be sure to specify what octane you are listing... which normally would be the octane you yourself use for your own vehicles.
Germantown/MD $2.67 to $2.79 for 87 Octane here.
I wasn't suggesting that we'd hit peak oil; most people who think we already have probably have no idea what they're talking about. But there's no question that demand is outstripping supply; of COURSE prices are going to go up, and will probably just continue to rise really. I don't think we'll hit the point where people will actually completely stop buying gas for at least 15-20 years (when it's 40 a gallon or god knows what).
fennec fox
ferrets ferrets ferrets ferrets FERRETS!!!
I'll admit it, I grew up in a suburb. It was nice.
Now, though, I live in Houston. When gas prices skyrocket, it's cities like Houston that suffer the most. The city is incredibly spread out, and there are no zoning laws, so your place of work could be literally anywhere within city limits. Companies are building up dozens of subdivisions out in the suburbs, some of which are astoundingly far-flung.
Now, I'm not a tinfoil-hat-wearing peak-oil-parroting hippie, but I do believe that far-flung housing developments like those will be untenable by the time the 30-year mortgage is paid off. The expense of commuting just won't be worth the Victorian windows, or the oversized lawn, or whatever.
I'm searching for a house now, and my main stipulations (besides price) are that the house must be near a bus line I use, and it must be within Beltway 8, the large loop which more-or-less serves as Houston's city limits. Screw auto commutes. I'd rather become a hermit than do that all my life.
Now, though, I live in Houston. When gas prices skyrocket, it's cities like Houston that suffer the most. The city is incredibly spread out, and there are no zoning laws, so your place of work could be literally anywhere within city limits. Companies are building up dozens of subdivisions out in the suburbs, some of which are astoundingly far-flung.
Now, I'm not a tinfoil-hat-wearing peak-oil-parroting hippie, but I do believe that far-flung housing developments like those will be untenable by the time the 30-year mortgage is paid off. The expense of commuting just won't be worth the Victorian windows, or the oversized lawn, or whatever.
I'm searching for a house now, and my main stipulations (besides price) are that the house must be near a bus line I use, and it must be within Beltway 8, the large loop which more-or-less serves as Houston's city limits. Screw auto commutes. I'd rather become a hermit than do that all my life.
chaostrophy
Member
Ark-AMN said:
I'm sure the populations of India and China will gladly fuck off and quit their industrializations so suburbs can remain sustainable longer, as long as you keep speaking up in defense of your lifestyle. Good for you!
Tommie Hu$tle
Member
jett said:
You guys kill me, you act like if our gas prices go up yours will just stay the same. EVERYONE's gas is going to cost more. The costs of goods and services are going to go up for everyone. The last thing the globe wants or needs if for the US to start tightening it's belt.
Not that I know a lot about the subject...But main concern of analysts right now is China and the increasing trend of the medium class to buy a car. Nothing new...except for the fact that there are a lot of medium class chinese.SailorDaravon said:
If we reach the peak...I really don't know if the world could be sustained as we already know it now...It's not only cars but a lot of other things depending from petrol and its derivatives.
SonicMegaDrive
Member
It takes me 5 minutes to get to my job. On foot.
Joy!
Joy!
Musashi Wins!
FLAWLESS VICTOLY!
I live in Dearborn, MI. Ford Motor Company and all that.
$3.36 on my way to work.
$3.36 on my way to work.
Squirrel Killer
Member
You do realize that "Peak Oil" and "Demand Outstriping Supply" have nothing do do with one another, right?SailorDaravon said:
As a reference for folks according to MSN the national gas price figures arE:
Lowest:
Sumter, SC - $1.93
Highest:
Lee Vining, CA - $3.39
National Average:
$2.61
Of course they add the disclaimer:
* Working with our data provider, we strive to cover as many gas stations as possible, but do not guarantee that every gas station is listed.
Lowest:
Sumter, SC - $1.93
Highest:
Lee Vining, CA - $3.39
National Average:
$2.61
Of course they add the disclaimer:
* Working with our data provider, we strive to cover as many gas stations as possible, but do not guarantee that every gas station is listed.
FortNinety
Member
Thank you SUV drivers of America.
Why is the subject of peak oil taboo with some people, or even current global oil supply limitations? It isn't too difficult to see where the pressure on oil prices is coming from, that is underlying supply constraints and a speculative market. Total global oil supply most likely has not peaked yet, there is still a very small swing capacity available. Truth be told is that it doesn't matter, light sweet crude (you know the stuff most easily made into gasoline) has peaked and this is not in dispute, the light and sweet stuff is now in decline like it or not, go ask OPEC. Most of the stuff coming out of Saudi Arabia these days is heavier and more sour oils, which are most costly and take longer to refine into gasoline.
So again, it’s a market driven by supply side limitations and speculation. Other events such as Iraq and the recent hurricane just add fuel to the fire and the overall trend is upward, and nothing short of a recession is going to point a stop to rising oil prices so you all better get used to it and expect much worse to come.
So again, it’s a market driven by supply side limitations and speculation. Other events such as Iraq and the recent hurricane just add fuel to the fire and the overall trend is upward, and nothing short of a recession is going to point a stop to rising oil prices so you all better get used to it and expect much worse to come.
ourumov said:
Well...You can always ask to one of your comrades...
Anyways if the railway system sucks so much as you say, the administration should do something.
Are you from the U.S.? I'm asking because unlike many parts of Europe, our federal government has very little to do with public transportation. Most are funded from individual cities and state governments.ourumov said:
Squirrel Killer said:
Yeah, I should've phrased that differently. Basically peak oil will happen whenever (enter your favorite theory here), but people will still buy gas until it's basically too expensive, or it hits the point where we're losing more energy by pulling it out then what we're getting. I think most people agree that'll happen sometime within our lifetimes, but whether or not we'll have an alternative that's energy-affordable by then is debatable/unknown. I worry mostly about my kids, but I think we'll come up with something honestly.
xabre said:
Short answer because people tend to pull the Peak Oil subject out like it's going to happen tomorrow and society is going to collapse and we'll be living in a Mad Max world next week and there is NOTHING be done at all to address alternate sources of energy(even if those are processes are being stymied by different factors there IS movement there).
siamesedreamer
Banned
Strategic Petrolium Reserves to be tapped.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20050831/bs_nm/economy_katrina_bernanke_dc
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20050831/bs_nm/economy_katrina_bernanke_dc
fennec fox
ferrets ferrets ferrets ferrets FERRETS!!!
There's also the fact that the current price spike is due to a natural disaster, not Peak Oil. It's off topic.
Funky Papa
FUNK-Y-PPA-4
Uh? Most European cities fund their own public transportation too.AirBrian said:
AirBrian said:
No I am not from the US and proof of it is I didn't know a fuck about the US railway system. I know that government in the US is pretty different from European countries in the sense that it has little to no relation with a lot of "public stuff". That's why I didn't see so obvious the fact that government should do something to change this.
It's not that they have to build and entire railway network using the contributors money (like it happens here for most of the stuff) but they could encourage companies in some way to improve this.
I *believe* (I use * because it's not I know what the average US citizen thinks about it) that there is a potential market for interurban ways.
fennec fox said:
Well we were already in the "peak driving season" as they term every summer til Labor day driving period and we were already seeing price spikes... though it seemed... that it had stabilized and if we hadn't seen Katrina that prices might start to come back as we approach Labor day which normally brings prices down somewhat... now though....
The expert that was first to predict that it'd hit $3/gal this year also came out recently and said that it wouldnt' hit $4, but $5 a gallon by next summer.
This sucks... seriously, people. Unless you live in Detroit, you can't possibly understand what it's like to watch civillization basically come apart around you. Like, the effect of this is honestly starting to really scare me in regards to what it'll do to Michigan.
This sucks... seriously, people. Unless you live in Detroit, you can't possibly understand what it's like to watch civillization basically come apart around you. Like, the effect of this is honestly starting to really scare me in regards to what it'll do to Michigan.
ourumov said:
The biggest problem we in the US have is that there is no commuter railway infrastructure. You basically drive a car, or you're fucking walking. Unless you live in a city, where there's subways, no average American can financially or logistically afford to take a train to work these days.
fennec fox
ferrets ferrets ferrets ferrets FERRETS!!!
The idea of driving a car less scares you? Hell, I'm dancing in the streets... even as it makes me all sweaty.whytemyke said:
The idea of millions of people in my community losing their jobs because we're driving cars less scares me. Quit thinking of this in such one-dimensional terms, man. It's not just about "driving cars less"... it's about people losing jobs, and that'll fold over into their own local communities having less money, schools having less money, etc etc etc. Despite what environmentalists will say, this is definitely BAD for the American economy, beyond description.fennec fox said:
Poody said:
I received that same email from my WebTV grandma 2 years ago. It seems to pop up every time the gas prices start climbing
The gas station here in Beaverton OR is at $2.63 for 87, $2.97 for 92. Yesturday I paid $2.83 for 92, and the day before it was listed at $2.77. Luckly I only have two fill up every 2 weeks or so.
You can say "oh just move closer to work", but some of us did and then the companies decided to move locations farther away :lol It happened to me and a friend of mine. I'm still closer compaired to where I use to live, but my friend now has a farther comute after he bought a house near his employer and the employer packed up and moved across the river.
People are never going to change their driving habits. They'll whine and complain about prices, but they'll still fill up their cars and drive the same as before.
Squirrel Killer
Member
Peak Oil is a theory concerning the long-term rate of fossil fuel extraction and depletion. The Supply-Demand curve is an economic model that describes, explains, and predicts changes in the price and quantity of goods sold in competitive markets.xabre said:
Supply can outstrip demand regardless of where we are in Hubbert curve, just as supply can outpace demand, even on the downswing of the curve. Obvious, peak oil influences supply/demand, but conflating the two is wrong, and that's one of the reasons people dismiss the peak oil hyperbolists.
radios shipping overview
Member
I paid $2.55/gal when I filled up yesterday. Came out to just under $30. I haven't paid that much for a fillup since when I used to drive a pickup. I know it's low compared to the national average, but I'm still pulling my bike out of storage this weekend.
The thing's old and in awful shape, though - anybody have a recommendation for a <$500 bike that'd be good for a 20-minute commute?
The thing's old and in awful shape, though - anybody have a recommendation for a <$500 bike that'd be good for a 20-minute commute?
fennec fox
ferrets ferrets ferrets ferrets FERRETS!!!
It also assumes that absolutely nothing will replace the current technology of gasoline-fueled cars, which a lot of the not-so-smart Peak Oil posters assume and which there's no evidence for.whytemyke said:
Take a chill. Detroit's been declining for decades anyway. Yes, it'll suck in the short term, but Mad Max is not happening.
It's pretty clear now. I thought people didn't use the rail because driving a car was pretty cheap to them due to cars and gas prices in NA...I didn't know that other options such as the rail were inexistant or pretty bad.Culex said:
Then again, mea culpa to have stated something while didn't know enough about the subject.
DarienA said:
That's not a realistic scenario, but peak oil is nevertheless far more credible than you realise. Most would talk about a prolonged recession, gradually deepening over time but we ain't there yet. Where we are, is in a unique position to see a steady and gradual increase in oil prices that show no signs of topping anytime soon. Now oil prices don't just soar from $30 two years ago to the $70 of today without an underlying cause. Speculators aren't going to bid up the price without being confident of a return on their investment.
The fact is global demand is exploding and the supply side of the market is having difficulty keeping up, short of weakening demand this is not going to change . So what are you going to be saying two years from now when oil is over a $100 a barrel and you're paying over $5 at the pump for a gallon? And you will be. I think people need to start getting used to it.
I thought many EU governments have more authority over public transportation than the US government does (well, at least for trains)? I thought EU governments require more uniformity and subsidize more as well. My mistake if I'm wrong.Funky Papa said:
EDIT: What are UK's PTAs considered then?
xabre said:
No it's not a realistic scenario however it's the scenario that is always pulled out whenever someone screams peak oil... peak oil folks are viewed as fanatics because initially the whole subject was brought to light in a "they sky is falling AND YOU'LL BE DEAD TOMORROW" way.
That's NOT the way to get people to really look at the issue you are trying to put forth.
Well I'm hoping you'll remember this comment and email me in 2 years.
chaostrophy
Member
DarienA said:
My point was that those of us on this board who criticize suburbia, and other Americans like us, are not going to be what ends suburbia, whenever it ends up going away. Americans in general like suburbia and cheap gas too much for the government to increase gas taxes or pass any of the other policies that us environmentalists/new urbanists/whatever would like to see. It's increased demand for oil from China, India, and other countries that are currently going through mass industrialization that's going to drive the price of oil up to the point where a suburban lifestyle is too expensive for the masses. And when it happens, we aren't to blame.
MrAngryFace
Banned
Fuck you suburbia haters. I DUNNO MAYBE I LIKE SEEING NATURE AROUND ME FROM TIME TO TIME. I spend 20-30 dollars on gas every 2.5 weeks and I live in the suburbs. I think thats pretty fucking awesome for a suburb guy. Wanna know the secret? ThERES JOBS IN THE SUBURBS!
And to any europeans bitching about our cheap gas, youre countries are the size of ***'s dick! None of you could hope to drive as much as we do. Living in the south west even in CITIES welcomes hour long marathon driving sessions.
I dont want to live in your cities. We left yer fucking CITIES cause they're worthless pieces of dying shit. Downtown generally sucks, and the rest of the city is old shit buildings. Everythings crammed and the air is fucking smogalicious.
Im sorry guys but I dont wanna live in an episode of Judge Dredd.
And to any europeans bitching about our cheap gas, youre countries are the size of ***'s dick! None of you could hope to drive as much as we do. Living in the south west even in CITIES welcomes hour long marathon driving sessions.
I dont want to live in your cities. We left yer fucking CITIES cause they're worthless pieces of dying shit. Downtown generally sucks, and the rest of the city is old shit buildings. Everythings crammed and the air is fucking smogalicious.
Im sorry guys but I dont wanna live in an episode of Judge Dredd.
fennec fox
ferrets ferrets ferrets ferrets FERRETS!!!
:lol :lol He's got a point there, especially here in east Texas.
chaostrophy said:
Ah ok I agree with this... fact is most rising gas articles always comment that China's demands basically are ramping up incredibly quickly and that they are easily on par with our demands and actually growing faster than our demands.... but it's always the US that catches the blame, we're an easier target.
MAF makes a point in regards to the size of various countries... in his own... unique... way.. and it's a point I think most non-Americans don't take in to account... this country is so f'n spread out that you really have no choice in many situations but TO own a car... and that was generally before the whole suburbs are the place to be mentality came up... and the downtown area's of most big cities? Please... I always find it incredibly interesting that in most big cities you don't have to go very far from the downtown business center of the city to see poverty.
Funky Papa
FUNK-Y-PPA-4
Certain trains are funded by the government, but subways, buses and streetcars are paid by the cities.Some of them, specially buses, are contracted with private companies. That means higher taxes, of course.AirBrian said:
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