What are your issues with Sonic?

K

Kokonoe

Banned
Sonic has had his share bad moments, and he hit rock bottom when Sonic 2006 was released. Sonic still has an apparent backlash in whatever he does, and I want to get to the bottom of why it still occurs.

What can be considered the bad moments for Sonic are in this order.


  • Dreamcast is discontinued.
  • Sonic Adventure games on the Gamecube get moderate/bad ratings, yet on the Dreamcast had high ratings. (Although they still sold well)
  • Sonic Heroes gets moderate/bad ratings
  • Shadow The Hedgehog gets bad ratings and becomes a laughing stock in the gaming scene due to it's over the top edginess.
  • Sonic 2006 which is Sonic at his lowest

The key thing here is that Sonic hasn't had a bad time with sales, just a bad time with the fans and critics. It's also that Sonic at a certain point in time was Mario's rival, neck and neck, toe to toe, mono e mono.
Sonic had the ratings, the fans, and the sales. But when this cycle started, Sonic began to slowly spiral down in the eyes of everyone.

I don't believe the spiral started with Sonic Adventure, though. It may have not been Mario 64, but I find it strange that critics gave both Sonic Adventure 1 and 2 high ratings, yet the modified rereleases on Gamecube didn't appease critics the same way.

I'm not entirely sure why this occurred, though.

If Sonic's change in gameplay in 3D were to blame, it would have been seen differently on the Dreamcast. Now that's not to say you have to like the Adventure series, but this specific issue I don't believe is the cause. Characters like Mega Man have all different types of series like Battle Network/Legends/X/Classic, surely this couldn't be it.

Fast foward to Sonic Heroes, a game where you get to play as a lot of Sonic's friends. A lot of the dislike stems from that and that alone, I'm not entirely sure what the other dislike of Heroes is, but a lot of people put it off due to this.
I myself put off Sonic Heroes originally because I didn't want to play with three characters, but I ended up enjoying the game a lot back then because I found it to be fun.

Shadow and Sonic 2006 have been discussed to death. We all know what is wrong with these games, and they have left a huge impression in just about every Sonic fan.

Sonic Unleashed was made eventually, which showed some promise from the demo. It seemed Sonic was finally returning, but it was plagued by highly monotonous and slow Werehog segments and Medal collecting that took more than 3-5x as long as the Sonic levels.
Sonic Colors came out and people were finally claming "Sonic is back!".
Sonic Generations came out and the numbers of that claim grew much more.

Oh, one more thing, I have four questions before the main part.

Did you play Sonic Generations 360/PS3/PC?
Did you enjoy Sonic Generations?

Did you play Sonic Colors Wii?
Did you enjoy Sonic Colors?

So I'll get to the point now. What are your issues with Sonic? Here is a list below that states some of the most popular issues with Sonic, feel free to post the numbers to represent which one.

Popular Issues with Sonic
  • 1. Modern Design

    Sonic's design was changed with Sonic Adventure. His eyes became green instead of black, his quills became longer, and his body became more slender.

  • 2. I don't like the Adventure series (Meaning you've played the Adventure games)

    A common issue is that the Adventure games are so much more different than the 2D ones, but they also just don't appeal to your tastes for whatever reason. If they don't appeal to you, state why specifically.
    Adventure was the first time they used voiceovers in a Sonic game, and it's also the first time Sonic had a real story.

  • 3. I don't like Sonic's friends

    Sonic's friends get a backlash for a few reasons usually. They are incorperated with gameplay styles that people feel aren't as good as Sonic's. They also bring more story elements into the series which apparently people don't like in Sonic.
    Do you have a specific reason why you dislike Sonic's friends? State why.

  • 4. 2D Sonic is the only good Sonic

    Usually there is a dislike for 3D Sonic as a whole, and people only like the 2D ones. Have you experienced 3D Sonic games? State why you only like 2D Sonic.

  • 5. Other

    If you have another issue with Sonic, post it.
Now here's a big question.

What does Sonic Team need to do next?

In your view, what would Sonic need to do to win you over again?
 
Just let Sonic go, let it go. I don't see how Sega can't come up with something new or backtrack to another old series and renew, do we really need more Sonic? Is it an importance to mankind that Sega endlessly feeds us Sonic titles?

Let it go.
 
Just to preface, I've barely played any one Sonic game all the way through, but I've at least played demos for all mainline Sonic games.

Just in general, his 2d gameplay feels floaty and stilted to me. Like, I'm fine with fast and slow parts mixed in, but the levels have no real pacing. It's just seems random stop-and-go.

In 3d, it feels too automated. It's fun, yet at times too straight foward. I'd prefer one-hit death gameplay where you have to really time your moves well.
 
The eyes.

No seriously, I don't have a problem with Sonic per se, I just don't like "press right/up to win" gameplay, that's all. Some of the newer games have become a bit better in this regard but the controls still don't feel as good as in the older games.
 
My issue is that it doesn't play enough like a platformer like the Genesis games did. I wish they would tone the roller coaster stuff WAAAYY down and just make a decent platformer with cool set pieces.
 
I like the systems they've established since Unleashed, and while that game felt kinda automated they've made big improvements in Colours/Generations in terms of adding more paths/routes and more freedom to the 3D stages. If they just keep iterating on the current formula (and lay off all the stupid non-platforming bullshit) I'll happily keep buying 'em.

My main complaint with the current Sonic games as they stand is the bosses--they've really been shortchanging us on bosses lately, either by recycling 'em or by just not adding 'em for half the zones.
 
ResidentDante said:
Just let Sonic go, let it go. I don't see how Sega can't come up with something new or backtrack to another old series and renew, do we really need more Sonic? Is it an importance to mankind that Sega endlessly feeds us Sonic titles?

Let it go.
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I agree with this. I see a vocal Sonic crowd online, but I hang with tons of gamers in my daily life and I haven't heard anyone mention Sonic in years. If any of the Sonic games they endlessly pump out were good I might care what Sega does with Sonic, but they aren't. So I don't.

Sonic has been on the slow Sega death spiral. As a former Genesis middle school console warrior it pains me to say it, but it's true.
 
Anyone looking at it from an objective perspective would see a turnaround in quality starting with Unleashed. Even if they're not top-notch AAA games on the level of something like Mario Galaxy, they're still pretty solid.

My favorite are the people who insist Sonic games were never good because they played it for 30 seconds, ran into spikes and complain about difficulty.
 
I pressed the button, but the guy didn't even answer until like 20 minutes later. Then he finally takes my order, comes skating out with the food, and he forgot the corndog! I was pissed!
 
Since 1994 SEGA should have just released Sonic games every two years using the S3&K engine. Today's Sonic games should be using the exact same engine, only in HD and whatnot.

Did you play Sonic Generations 360/PS3/PC? All three.
Did you enjoy Sonic Generations? Yes, but mostly Green Hill Zone, Chemical Plant Zone and the classic bosses. And the Super Sonic Racing remix.

Did you play Sonic Colors Wii? Not much.
Did you enjoy Sonic Colors? Seemed alright.
 
My only issue is that it's about 25 minute drive away from my place. Other than that, they have some pretty good burgers
 
Man Puncher said:
Those fans.
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MrCunningham said:
They got creepier with each and every passing generation.
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Please do not bring that discussion here. Generalizing isn't the right thing to do. There are different parts of all communities, that doesn't mean everyone is the same.
This also had nothing to do with the games themselves.

Marjorine said:
I agree with this. I see a vocal Sonic crowd online, but I hang with tons of gamers in my daily life and I haven't heard anyone mention Sonic in years. If any of the Sonic games they endlessly pump out were good I might care what Sega does with Sonic, but they aren't. So I don't.

Sonic has been on the slow Sega death spiral. As a former Genesis middle school console warrior it pains me to say it, but it's true.
Click to expand...

This is rather silly. Not only are you giving a limited exposure for how an actual franchise should be ran, but you aren't stating why specifically Sonic isn't in your court, and which games you've played.
 
ResidentDante said:
Just let Sonic go, let it go. I don't see how Sega can't come up with something new or backtrack to another old series and renew, do we really need more Sonic? Is it an importance to mankind that Sega endlessly feeds us Sonic titles?

Let it go.
Click to expand...
Just as important as you posting in this I think. I don't see the issue. I think some people got older and don't care for Sonic. The people that complain are usually fans that think they can make a better game.
 
sykoex said:
My issue is that it doesn't play enough like a platformer like the Genesis games did. I wish they would tone the roller coaster stuff WAAAYY down and just make a decent platformer with cool set pieces.
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Now Sonic plays more like a racer. You'll look terrible until you replay the levels and learn them. But I don't mind that.

Sonic Generations on PC is the shit.
 
disappeared said:
I've had a problem with the series since it stopped being a platformer.
Click to expand...

This will lead to some fool saying it never was and this thread will turn into mush.


What I loved about the original Sonic games was:The choice to either speed through a level (which would usually lead to running face first into a hazard) or to stop and explore my surroundings. THE MUSIC. The creative levels/enemies and last but not least, The fact that it was Dr Robotnik and not Eggman..Jk mostly.


The original Sonic games physics haven't returned in any of the newer games and Sega just doesn't have the same Sonic team that it once had. I have no hope of Sonic ever returning to form, but I stopped caring a while ago. I still own the old sonic games and I can play those when I want. I should add that I am able to enjoy the newer sonic games, but it's kind of like how you enjoy a direct to dvd movie or something. Original Sonic is more like an all time favorite movie.
 
Wario64 said:
My only issue is that it's about 25 minute drive away from my place. Other than that, they have some pretty good burgers
Click to expand...

Yeah, that too. It's kind of become a ritual for me and my friends to just go every 4th of July because that's around the time one opened up closer than 2 hours away.
 
As long as they keep expanding and improving on their 3D formula, they have no qualms from me.

They seriously need to give all future 2D titles to the guys who made the classic levels in Generations, though.


Did you play Sonic Generations 360/PS3/PC? Yes.
Did you enjoy Sonic Generations? Loved it. The best 3D Sonic, and the 2D parts were excellent.

Did you play Sonic Colors Wii? Yes
Did you enjoy Sonic Colors? I really enjoyed it and the Wisps were surprisingly well done. A little too many 2D parts which I didn't enjoy much though
 
Kokonoe, I think the Storybook games should be added to the list.

@MUWANdo said:
My main complaint with the current Sonic games as they stand is the bosses--they've really been shortchanging us on bosses lately, either by recycling 'em or by just not adding 'em for half the zones.
Click to expand...
Definitely have a point here. Colours' bosses were underwhelming compared to some of Unleashed's day bosses (heck, even the Unleashed version of Egg Dragoon was alright). Generations had some interesting execution, but they needed more bosses.

It's kind of weird that the final bosses in Unleashed and Colours were fine, but Generations ran into some problems there. Even Sonic 4: Episode 1 had a rather poorly-executed final boss (in that it took too long after a boss gauntlet and you needed to make a final jump).

As of now for the series in general, I think the presentation is fine; it's something Sonic's consistently gotten right this generation, and I don't think the Hedgehog Engine (or Unleashed Wii/Colours) gets enough credit for, nor does the Sonic Sound Team (Ohtani, Tokoi, etc. mostly). CG is nice, graphical quality is nice (thank goodness everything stopped looking like plastic after Heroes), music is excellent. They have a good formula going for the games as of now (where Colours took a platformer-based approach, while Unleashed took a quasi-Adventure/experimentation stance, and Generations melded both styles of play together). All they need to do is make it cohesive and polish it. One of my issues with Generations was that it lacked the cohesion that Colours had.

LeBrick James said:
Now Sonic plays more like a racer. You'll look terrible until you replay the levels and learn them. But I don't mind that.

Sonic Generations on PC is the shit.
Click to expand...
Kind of expanding on this, but I want more levels like Action Master from Generations. Something that features skills and puts them to the test in a kind of platforming style.
 
ResidentDante said:
Just let Sonic go, let it go. I don't see how Sega can't come up with something new or backtrack to another old series and renew, do we really need more Sonic? Is it an importance to mankind that Sega endlessly feeds us Sonic titles?

Let it go.
Click to expand...

I agree with this man. I want a new Ristar game, dammit!
 
I really liked Colors and Generations but I can see how what with Sonic '06 being the worst game ever made there would be more than enough reasons to get anybody even remotely familiar with the series wanting to severe all ties to the franchise and denounce its quality.

The way people just kind of step around most of the portable games, Colors and Generations' (or even Sonic 4 which isn't really as bad as say, Heroes... Or at least Episode 2 is fine enough) in these discussions is kind of annoying, but even then I remember being suckered into buying Sonic and the Secret Rings since people said it was a return to form.

NO IT FUCKING WASN'T.
 
Astrosanity said:
I really liked Colors and Generations but I can see how what with Sonic '06 being the worst game ever made there would be enough to get anybody even remotely familiar with the series wanting to severe all ties to the franchise and denounce its quality.
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It's not actually that bad. Superman 64 and plenty of LJN games are much worse. But it is pretty bad, don't get me wrong.

nckillthegrimace said:
I liked Colors and Generations. I think Sega's on the right track, but I've heard Episode 4 is just terrible.
Click to expand...

Sonic 4 is made by Dimps, and they are a hit and miss with Sonic games.
 
Kokonoe said:
This is rather silly. Not only are you giving a limited exposure for how an actual franchise should be ran, but you aren't stating why specifically Sonic isn't in your court, and which games you've played.
Click to expand...

I am simply stating I don't care anymore. I dont think any of the games since the Genesis titles have been very good. I stopped with Sonic '06, and haven't given Sonic much of a thought since. In fact, you could hold a gun to my head and ask me to name the last Sonic game published and I couldn't give you an answer. This is coming from someone who played Sonic games for about 15 years.

You have a heck of a well thought out OP up there, but as I find myself getting older I will stick with currently relevant series and not worry about something that was (IMO, not everyone's I realize) played out a long time ago. Sega will probably never get any of those Sonic people back regardless of what they do.
 
For me it's just the overall feel/vibe of most of the modern sonic games that makes me not like them.

During the 16-bit era, Sonic was "edgy", the games had cool music, and it was just very enjoyable and addictive to play.

In terms of the recent games, most of the recent games have silly stories, the characters sound childish, the music sounds like cheesy Christian rock, and it isn't as fast nor addictive when it comes to gameplay.

Sonic Generations was pretty good though.
 
Marjorine said:
I am simply stating I don't care anymore. I dont think any of the games since the Genesis titles have been very good. I stopped with Sonic '06, and haven't given Sonic much of a thought since. In fact, you could hold a gun to my head and ask me to name the last Sonic game published and I couldn't give you an answer. This is coming from someone who played Sonic games for about 15 years.

You have a heck of a well thought out OP up there, but as I find myself getting older I will stick with currently relevant series and not worry about something that was (IMO, not everyone's I realize) played out a long time ago. Sega will probably never get any of those Sonic people back regardless of what they do.
Click to expand...

Well, Sonic Generations has Classic 2D Sonic gameplay. There is a demo on Xbox 360 and I believe PS3. If you ever want to try Sonic again, Generations is definitely the one.
 
Marjorine said:
I am simply stating I don't care anymore. I dont think any of the games since the Genesis titles have been very good. I stopped with Sonic '06, and haven't given Sonic much of a thought since. In fact, you could hold a gun to my head and ask me to name the last Sonic game published and I couldn't give you an answer. This is coming from someone who played Sonic games for about 15 years.

You have a heck of a well thought out OP up there, but as I find myself getting older I will stick with currently relevant series and not worry about something that was (IMO, not everyone's I realize) played out a long time ago. Sega will probably never get any of those Sonic people back regardless of what they do.
Click to expand...

The problem is that you stopped with 06. You should really give Generations a shot, a lot of folks here on GAF, myself included, really enjoyed it. Maybe Colors too, if you have a Wii.
 
Did you play Sonic Generations 360/PS3/PC?

yes

Did you enjoy Sonic Generations?

yes. best game since the Genesis games.

Did you play Sonic Colors Wii?

yes

Did you enjoy Sonic Colors?

FUCK NO THAT GAME IS ASS




Ultimately, I just don't think you can do Sonic in 3D. Or, they haven't figured it out yet. I'm a fan of the Sonic Adventure 2 Sonic/Shadow stages, but by no means would I call the Adventure games great. The Classic Sonic segments of Sonic Generations were incredible, and put New Super Mario Bros to shame. More of that please.
 
I could write a massive essay on the folly of Sega's current design philosophy, but I'll keep this short and sweet:

Automation. Get rid of boosters, get rid of long thin stretches of useless land to boost through. These things only give an illusion of involvement. Let the player explore and experiment with the environment, not funnel them through it for the sake of going fast. If the player wants to go fast, they will find the fastest way on their own.

In short, Sonic has become an instant gratification simulation for speed demons.
 
sonic hasnt been good since sonic 2, the first still being the best in the series. there have been some okay 2D games since but for the most part that series is awful. only thing that would help now is a full on reboot but the current sega is never going to do that.
 
I really enjoyed Generations on the PC, and if they can make more levels similar to Rooftop Run, I wouldn't mind. That level running at 60fps was jawdropping.
 
I have always hated Sonic. I have always felt that you watch the game more than you play it. I also don't like how fast it is... maybe it's just me though, but I find it really hard to keep up and thus always end up hitting an enemy or an obstacle and losing all the speed.
 
Kokonoe said:
It's not actually that bad. Superman 64 and plenty of LJN games are much worse. But it is pretty bad, don't get me wrong.
Click to expand...

I'd argue it's worse by virtue of stuff like S64 and Big Rigs: Off the Road racing being from really small, no-name developers nobody expected to be good in the first place while Sonic '06 was put out by a big company as the reboot of a once hugely influential billion-dollar franchise. It just depends what perspective you take.
 
ZombiePlatypus said:
  • More running.
  • Less making-out with humans.

Series fixed.
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That has changed since Sonic Unleashed. And they've stopped using "serious" tones in the series since 2006.

Hieberrr said:
I have always hated Sonic. I have always felt that you watch the game more than you play it. I also don't like how fast it is... maybe it's just me though, but I find it really hard to keep up and thus always end up hitting an enemy or an obstacle and losing all the speed.
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Sonic's theme is his speed, timing, and momentum. It's what people play it for usually.
 
Kokonoe said:
Please do not bring that discussion here. Generalizing isn't the right thing to do. There are different parts of all communities, that doesn't mean everyone is the same.
This also had nothing to do with the games themselves.
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Was referring to those fans, not all fans. There are loads of Sonic fans who do not feel the need to create creepy self-insertion character art or nightmare fuel fan-fiction.

Unfortunately, it is these 'overly enthusiastic' fans who turn me off Sonic games by association. That and his shitty friends and mediocre/pant-load games.
 
Bgamer90 said:
For me it's just the overall feel/vibe of most of the modern sonic games that makes me not like them.

During the 16-bit era, Sonic was "edgy", the games had cool music, and it was just very enjoyable and addictive to play.

In terms of the recent games, most of the recent games have silly stories, the characters sound childish, the music sounds like cheesy Christian rock, and it isn't as fast nor addictive when it comes to gameplay.

Sonic Generations was pretty good though.
Click to expand...
This made me laugh out loud; I was almost offended until I realized you were talking about the vocal themes.

So yeah, now my question to throw in is this: Is Sonic just one of those things that was cool as fuck in the 90s because we were young and now that we've grown up it's embarrassing?

Also, moving forward, would the 3D games be better without boosting? I think it'd be interesting for them to take it out of the formula and see what happens, maybe relegating it back to just the Rush series (if that isn't dead).
 
Kokonoe said:
The key thing here is that Sonic hasn't had a bad time with sales, just a bad time with the fans and critics. It's also that Sonic at a certain point in time was Mario's rival, neck and neck, toe to toe, mono e mono.
Sonic had the ratings, the fans, and the sales. But when this cycle started, Sonic began to slowly spiral down in the eyes of everyone.
Click to expand...
I thought this was factually untrue, and that the series' sales has been on a downward spiral.
 
sykoex said:
My issue is that it doesn't play enough like a platformer like the Genesis games did. I wish they would tone the roller coaster stuff WAAAYY down and just make a decent platformer with cool set pieces.
Click to expand...

This is it. Some of the recent games have been good platformers and maybe even have flashes of the old Genesis magic, but as a whole it's just not there anymore. This is coming from someone who enjoyed the first Sonic Adventure a lot on its own terms.
 
Jinfash said:
I thought this was factually untrue, and that the series' sales has been on a downward spiral.
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The games have sold from that point well. Sonic Generations sold less, but the games before it still raked in a lot. Sonic Unleashed surely did.
 
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