What are your issues with Sonic?

Foffy said:
I think the spine for the series has always been the same; about speed, about platforming, it's just that Sega has been assembling extra limbs to the thing, and usually ending up as an extra component that stands out as jarring. It's not hard to make the core of Sonic appealing, it's all of the extra fluff they're adding on top of that that's getting in the way.
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I feel like I see some people who seem to really like that sort of fluff, and sometimes expect it. Some people I know or have tutored who came in during the Adventure era/with Adventure GCN/Heroes/Shadow just expect some sort of wild, epic story or different characters to use or whatever because that's what they were introduced to and what they became accustomed to.

But you've definitely got a point. Sega shouldn't ever feel like they should cater to a select group of people (and I guess they're trying to remedy that with Unleashed/Generations/Colours) and just make something fun.
 
Kokonoe said:
Sonic's friends get a backlash for a few reasons usually. They are incorperated with gameplay styles that people feel aren't as good as Sonic's. They also bring more story elements into the series which apparently people don't like in Sonic.
Do you have a specific reason why you dislike Sonic's friends? State why.
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actually, this is another good point - i again didnt think the friends were the big problem of adventure 1/2. and one thing i think sucks for the team is that when mario is shown to be a bumble bee or a cloud or whatever next game, it's met often with hype and anticipation, while sonic as a wolf or random block or whatever in colors takes shit conceptually/before the game even shows up - i get the huge gulf in consistent quality, but i did kinda empathize with devs unsure how to appease both bases, at least prior to generations.

but the friend thing is something entirely different. Mario games dont often force me to play as an entirely different character - in the unlikely event they do (Yoshi's Island, etc) the game is built around them and their physics. that's not the feeling i get from a lotta sonic's friends and their respective parts, and that's an important distinction between making the friends likeable or a big annoyance - it's a lot deeper than chatty cutscenes and awkward anime/furry troupes.
i.e., i didn't mind the friends in Generations at all, because i barely had to engage them if i didn't want to.
 
Kokonoe said:
Now that's not to say I wouldn't like an exact replica of Sonic3/Knuckles's engine, but the fact that Sonic Team actually made something solid and classicish in the 2D department still was nice to see.
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It's just disappointing to me. For some odd reason, they keep barely missing the goal every time. There is no way for anyone to actually believe that it is that hard for a professional development team to replicate those simple physics. That's a pile of bull.
 
TheCongressman1 said:
It's just disappointing to me. For some odd reason, they keep barely missing the goal every time. There is no way for anyone to actually believe that it is that hard for a professional development team to replicate those simple physics. That's a pile of bull.
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The classic Generations stages aren't truly 2D; they're running in a 3D engine with a sidescrolling perspective. You can only push it so far.
 
Phoenix Fang said:
The same can be said about Mario.
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I'm totally fine with Nintendo continuing on with the Mario legacy. As long as they are good games. The worst of Mario is still generally leagues better than the worst of Sonic.

As for Sonic. I'm OK with Sega giving the character a break. But that will never happen as long as there is still a rabid fan base looking for more.
 
@MUWANdo said:
The classic Generations stages aren't truly 2D; they're running in a 3D engine with a sidescrolling perspective. You can only push it so far.
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That makes no difference. The physics still operate on a 2D plane, not a 3D one. Even then, it would still be almost as easy to create a similar set of pinball physics in a 3D environment.
 
I can say my problem with Sonic 4 boils down to how it was handled. It played like an Advance game, which is harmless in itself, but I do not like the way they hyped it. Honestly, I think it wouldn't have been as bad if it wasn't called Sonic 4. That Sega did that almost makes it feel.. pretentious.

But again, mediocre to alright game on its own. Episode II demo was boring as shit though. I'll have to play through the whole thing with my friend sometime, but if 'pressing x/square and jumping occasionally' is a thing I can do in most other levels then I am not looking forward to it. :/
 
ResidentDante said:
Just let Sonic go, let it go. I don't see how Sega can't come up with something new or backtrack to another old series and renew, do we really need more Sonic? Is it an importance to mankind that Sega endlessly feeds us Sonic titles?

Let it go.
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Suggestions like these are some of the dumbest ill-informed discussion points that could be offered, and reeks of "I go off what I hear and haven't bothered to touch the recent better games". Sonic is a million seller and the last 6 six years of games have greatly improved in quality. On top of that, the Sonic franchise offers a shred of color in today's gritty sea of brown and grey triple AAA games. But yes, Sega should kill it's most successful IP, and one of the few high-budget platformers we seldom get. Yes, well thought out.
 
Tyeforce said:
They were fun? At least to me. Doesn't mean they were to you. Fun is subjective, after all. I genuinely liked playing as three character teams in Heroes. I thought the whole power/speed/flight mechanic was really neat. And in Shadow, the gameplay was similar to the Adventure games or Heroes with just one character, which I also liked. Yeah, the weapons felt really out of place, but I'm not gonna lie and say that I didn't have fun shooting enemies with an Omochao gun and such, lol. And I really enjoyed the story in Shadow the Hedgehog. I loved the whole Shadow story arc between Adventure 2, Heroes, Sonic Battle, and Shadow the Hedgehog.

It's just what I like. And it's certainly not all I like, as I like a very wide range of video games. But I like it nonetheless, regardless of what others think.

I don't really understand how some people find enjoyment out of many games that don't interest me, but I don't question it because I know e.veryone has different tastes.
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It's just to me Heroes and Shadow in particular were way too glitchy and repetitive to even get much of a feel for what the games were aiming for. Since you seemed to already dislike most of the main gameplay features of Shadow I was just curious what about it you liked in particular. Like, while I don't feel they've aged well I can tell what the Adventure games were going for and felt they missed the mark because they needed another year or so to iron out glitches, work on how Sonic controls in 3D and rethink questionable design decisions such as Big or those go-kart minigames in SA2. I can't really think of what you could fix in Heroes and Shadow with extra time beyond just re-hauling the entire games.

Fair enough about liking the tag team mechanic in Heroes (to me it's not even so much a bad idea but rather just implemented in a very shallow way) and digging those games' story but hey different strokes for different folks I guess. I don't think it helps Heroes was the game which after loving the classic games and still being a fan of the Dreamcast games which put me off the series until Colors though. Hope any of this didn't rub you the wrong way.
 
I feel like what TheCongressman1 is asking for isn't unreasonable; granted I don't think they need to be exactly the same, but there is still much room for improvement.

One of the awesome things about the classic games was curling up into a ball and rolling all over the place, it felt amazing. Sonic Team just has not been able to evoke that same pinball feeling in the recent games, instead opting for "HOLY FUCK I'M GOING SO FAST I'M ON A GODDAMN ROLLER COASTER!" Which is cool in its own right, really, but I can see the disconnect.

SwiftSketcher said:
Suggestions like these are some of the dumbest ill-informed discussion points that could be offered, and reeks of "I go off what I hear and haven't bothered to touch the recent better games". Sonic is a million seller and the last 6 six years of games have greatly improved in quality. On top of that, the Sonic franchise offers a shred of color in today's gritty sea of brown and grey triple AAA games. But yes, Sega should kill it's most successful IP, and one of the few high-budget platformers we seldom get. Yes, well thought out.
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I wouldn't exactly say all that, but instead that it is an effortless answer.

But yeah, I highly doubt Sega will be throwing away one of four IPs that are still saving their asses.
 
GMN said:
that argument doesn't fly when the other person's taste appears downright bizarre
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But why does it matter if my tastes are bizarre to some people? A lot of things are "bizarre" to many people. That doesn't mean it's wrong. If someone likes something, so long as it's not harming anyone, why should you criticize them for it?
 
Astrosanity said:
It's just to me Heroes and Shadow in particular were way too glitchy and repetitive to even get much of a feel for what the games were aiming for. Since you seemed to already dislike most of the main gameplay features of Shadow I was just curious what about it you liked in particular.

Fair enough about liking the tag team mechanic in Heroes (to me it's not even so much a bad idea but rather just implemented in a very shallow way) and digging those games' story but hey different strokes for different folks I guess. Hope this didn't rub you the wrong way.
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Sorry to go off topic but where is your avatar from? I swear I've seen it somewhere but I can't remember :p
 
Astrosanity said:
It's just to me Heroes and Shadow in particular were way too glitchy and repetitive to even get much of a feel for what the games were aiming for. Since you seemed to already dislike most of the main gameplay features of Shadow I was just curious what about it you liked in particular.

Fair enough about liking the tag team mechanic in Heroes (to me it's not even so much a bad idea but rather just implemented in a very shallow way) and digging those games' story but hey different strokes for different folks I guess. Hope this didn't rub you the wrong way.
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Not at all, I'm used to it after all. It's kinda impossible to be a fan of modern Sonic games these days and not get a bunch of crap for it all the time. =/
 
Tyeforce said:
But why does it matter if my tastes are bizarre to some people? A lot of things are "bizarre" to many people. That doesn't mean it's wrong. If someone likes something, so long as it's not harming anyone, why should you criticize them for it?
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your post seemed to imply that you think nobody should question your tastes simply because people have different tastes. if i say something like Big Rigs is one of my favorite games, i'm going to EXPECT some funny looks/questions
 
GMN said:
the problem with Sonic Generations is that they wanted an even division between the levels instead of just paying tribute to all the best ones. so we ended up being reminded that Sonic 06 exists and didn't really get a ton of classic levels
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"Best" is entirely subjective. The game is a tribute to the series as a whole and not just fan favorite levels.
 
GMN said:
and when you're putting stuff from Sonic Unleashed and Sonic 06 next to stuff from Sonic 3, you see why that's a bad idea. i can say "recognizable" if it makes you feel better :\
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I understand your viewpoint, really. But that's also the thing that people can't seem to get past when talking about Generations. It's mentioned over and over, from the announcement to the day it hit the shelves, that the game is celebrating Sonic's history. And that means, whether or not we all like it, you have to take the bad with the good. Personally, while I could've gone without seeing any part of Sonic 06, they did a bang-up job with the Modern grouping of levels - ESPECIALLY Rooftop Run.
 
TheOGB said:
I feel like what TheCongressman1 is asking for isn't unreasonable; granted I don't think they need to be exactly the same, but there is still much room for improvement.

One of the awesome things about the classic games was curling up into a ball and rolling all over the place, it felt amazing. Sonic Team just has not been able to evoke that same pinball feeling in the recent games, instead opting for "HOLY FUCK I'M GOING SO FAST I'M ON A GODDAMN ROLLER COASTER!" Which is cool in its own right, really, but I can see the disconnect.
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While I would love it if rolling came back properly implemented in the 3D games for the reasons you stated, I think you could make the boost have a similar feeling of satisfaction if you made it something the player had to earn rather than be given at the start as a default move. Colors already played it right in my book by essentially making the boost gauge something you could only fill up either by destroying certain badniks or picking up certain wisp capsules.
 
Professor Beef said:
I understand your viewpoint, really. But that's also the thing that people can't seem to get past when talking about Generations.
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well, it's hard to blame them really. it's like buying an Aerosmith greatest hits album and finding out they limited themselves to two tracks from every album, with crap from "Honkin' on Bobo" getting as much space as "Rocks" or "Toys in the Attic"
 
GMN said:
and when you're putting stuff from Sonic Unleashed and Sonic 06 next to stuff from Sonic 3, you see why that's a bad idea. i can say "recognizable" if it makes you feel better :\
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You just proved his point. You may not like those games, but--shock of all shocks--other people do.

For example, there are quite a few people on GAF (and for the sake of lending credence to this, I'll include myself here) who like both versions of Unleashed even with all of their flaws like collecting medals, the slow-paced werehog levels, and the HD version of Eggmanland. A few of the kids I tutored in the past liked Sonic 2006, which doesn't surprise me at all because it was one of the first games in the series they were exposed to.
 
Astrosanity said:
While I would love it if rolling came back properly implemented in the 3D games for the reasons you stated, I think you could make the boost have a similar feeling of satisfaction if you made it something the player had to earn rather than be given at the start as a default move. Colors already played it right in my book by essentially making the boost gauge something you could only fill up either by destroying certain badniks or picking up certain wisp capsules.
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Yeah, Colors definitely did boosting right. Empty bar to start with and distributed sparingly. There was one level in the second world where you'd get fucked up if you didn't use your boost wisely; there are several lines of enemies and if you boost too much you'll likely run out right before or in the middle of the next one.
 
GMN said:
your post seemed to imply that you think nobody should question your tastes simply because people have different tastes. if i say something like Big Rigs is one of my favorite games, i'm going to EXPECT some funny looks/questions
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Well, I'm above that way of thinking, I guess. I don't give a damn what your favorite game is. If you enjoy it, that's all that matters. I'm not going to stop liking something just because other people think it's bizarre.


I guess this kind of attitude comes naturally to people like me, though. I mean, I'm a Nintendo gamer, I'm a Mac user, I'm gay, and I'm a furry (and no, that's not the reason why I like Sonic >.>). Oh, and I'm a fan of Metroid: Other M, too. I get enough people telling me that the things I like are wrong or weird to know that it's not the right thing to do to people, and as long as it's not hurting anyone, it shouldn't matter what the fuck anyone likes.
 
TheCongressman1 said:
Common sense? Think about it. You are telling me it is just too hard for Sega to accurately replicate rolling physics? Is that really what you would think?

It has nothing to do with difficulty, it's either laziness, or stubbornness.
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What I'm saying is that I've seen how the Generations engine works and I know that 1:1 Megadrive physics simply aren't possible, and that the number of changes that would have to be made to the engine in order to approximate them are far from "easy" and would essentially amount to writing a completely separate second engine. If it was as simple as you're suggesting then they'd have done it.

The reason people generally don't mind that the physics aren't 1:1 with the original games is because they're still fun for what they are, which is more than can be said of Sonic 4, another game with the same conceit which has physics that are uniformly, objectively terrible.
 
My issue with Sonic is mostly that fast platforming is just stale to me nowadays - the same way Silent Hill's style of horror has just completely dried up. There's not much that can really be done about this.

That and people are right about Sonic Team focusing too much on making the games all roller coaster like. It is a core aspect of the game since '91, yes, but loop de loops, corkscrews and everything else just...don't seem exciting now. They're a given. Expected.

If anything I'd argue that they should try focusing on innovating the games as a platformer and not a speed thrill, but I have a hunch that by principle Sonic Team won't do that since this a mantle Super Mario takes up.
 
Tyeforce said:
Well, I'm above that way of thinking, I guess. I don't give a damn what your favorite game is. If you enjoy it, that's all that matters. I'm not going to stop liking something just because other people think it's bizarre.


I guess this kind of attitude comes naturally to people like me, though. I mean, I'm a Nintendo gamer, I'm a Mac user, I'm gay, and I'm a furry (and no, that's not the reason why I like Sonic >.>). Oh, and I'm a fan of Metroid: Other M, too. I get enough people telling me that the things I like are wrong or weird to know that it's not the right thing to do to people, and as long as it's not hurting anyone, it shouldn't matter what the fuck anyone likes.
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video game forums might not be the best environment :P
 
Well, their "Modern Sonic" style of gameplay is innovative in it's own right, but I would like to see them innovate it even more myself.
 
Dark Schala said:
You just proved his point. You may not like those games, but--shock of all shocks--other people do.

For example, there are quite a few people on GAF (and for the sake of lending credence to this, I'll include myself here) who like both versions of Unleashed even with all of their flaws like collecting medals, the slow-paced werehog levels, and the HD version of Eggmanland. A few of the kids I tutored in the past liked Sonic 2006, which doesn't surprise me at all because it was one of the first games in the series they were exposed to.
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i don't suppose i'd have so much of a problem if the ratio was different. but recognizing the "bad" or the obscure in equal amounts to the "good" and the iconic is not a good idea, nor will it ever be.
 
GMN said:
i don't suppose i'd have so much of a problem if the ratio was different. but recognizing the "bad" or the obscure in equal amounts to the "good" and the iconic is not a good idea, nor will it ever be.
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Bear in mind that the vast majority of their staff probably weren't around for the original games, or even the Dreamcast games.
 
Sonic Generations was made to represent Sonic's history. Sonic 2006 is a big part of Sonic's history regardless of it's stature or not. I think the fact that they put a level from it in there is that they know what they did, but they aren't going to hide it.
 
GMN said:
well, it's hard to blame them really. it's like buying an Aerosmith greatest hits album and finding out they limited themselves to two tracks from every album, with crap from "Honkin' on Bobo" getting as much space as "Rocks" or "Toys in the Attic"
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That's not really the same, considering the stages from the "bad" Sonic era have been remixed and made into something that fits with the rest of the game. Just because they're from bad games doesn't mean that the stages play bad now, in a completely different gameplay style.
 
GMN said:
i don't suppose i'd have so much of a problem if the ratio was different. but recognizing the "bad" or the obscure in equal amounts to the "good" and the iconic is not a good idea, nor will it ever be.
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But you can reason that Sega at least recognized the good in Unleashed by including one of the better daytime levels, and made improvements to the shitty Crisis City "that tornado's carrying a car!" bits in Generations, right?

It's a game that's supposed to honour the entirety of the 20 years of the series, not the first three or four. It just makes sense that they'd include everything, good or bad.
 
yeah, that french villa level from Unleashed was a fantastic choice - turned out to be one of my favorites of the whole game, props to whoever made that call. if you can take a single level from 06 and turn it into gold, why not?
 
GMN said:
i don't suppose i'd have so much of a problem if the ratio was different. but recognizing the "bad" or the obscure in equal amounts to the "good" and the iconic is not a good idea, nor will it ever be.
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You also have to understand that tastes differ. You like the Genesis-era stuff, while Joe Sixpack and his sister grew up with the Modern-era stuff. The only thing that really matters in the end - which is what Generations did really well - is making the levels fun to play. I think most of us were (rightfully) cringing when loading up Crisis City, but the level turned out to be pretty fun. In fact, outside of certain...areas...of Planet Wisp, all of the levels in Generations were fun to play. That's one of the reasons why Generations was tied for my personal GOTY.

Yeah I would've liked more Genesis levels and less mentions of the "Modern" stuff, but what we got instead was a damn fine game. I'll take that over pining for Generations to be nothing but 16-bit levels.

Where's the goddamned DLC for this game, Sega? D:
 
Dark Schala said:
But you can reason that Sega at least recognized the good in Unleashed by including one of the better daytime levels, and made improvements to the shitty Crisis City "that tornado's carrying a car!" bits in Generations, right?

It's a game that's supposed to honour the entirety of the 20 years of the series, not the first three or four. It just makes sense that they'd include everything, good or bad.
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it does make sense that they'd include everything, but maybe it would have been a better idea to include MORE from earlier games and the Sonic Adventures than just one apiece.
 
GMN said:
no, just don't act insulted or surprised when somebody questions what you like. hell, it happens to everybody :\
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I just like giving people a hard time because I have to deal with it enough and people should learn to be more accepting towards different opinions.

I know that it's to be expected. That doesn't make it right, though.
 
My only real problem is that for a while it felt like Sonic was trying too hard and thereby straying from his roots. Things like Sonic and the Seven Rings or Sonic and the Black Knight, for instance. Looking back, Shadow the Hedgehog would also count, and Sonic 2006 is it in spades.

I feel that Sonic Rush, Sonic Colors, and Sonic Generations have all been very good Sonic games, and are a sign that the series is on the mend. But for me Sonic simply spent too much time doing weird stuff like wielding a sword or being a werewolf when he should've just been running around real fast jumping on stuff. It's okay to have themes, Colors proved that, but I dunno.

I'm not doing a very good job of explaining why becoming a werehog is somehow worse than getting colorful alien powerups. One just isn't Sonic, when the other felt very much right.
 
@MUWANdo said:
What I'm saying is that I've seen how the Generations engine works and I know that 1:1 Megadrive physics simply aren't possible, and that the number of changes that would have to be made to the engine in order to approximate them are far from "easy" and would essentially amount to writing a completely separate second engine. If it was as simple as you're suggesting then they'd have done it.
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That kind of insight is appreciated, and I wish you had shared in the first place. It's unfortunate that their engine isn't capable of these physics, however this shouldn't be an excuse. For example, Sonic Fan Remix. It is perfectly possible for a small team to accurately reflect these physics in a 3D environment. Why is Sega not willing to build a new engine to handle this? Remember, they are a huge corporation, not garage developers.

Also, consider this, for at least the past 3 games they have toted that this new game as the return of momentum gameplay with proper rolling physics. Either stop lying, or build a new engine.
 
Professor Beef said:
Yeah I would've liked more Genesis levels and less mentions of the "Modern" stuff, but what we got instead was a damn fine game. I'll take that over pining for Generations to be nothing but 16-bit levels.
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well i'm not necessarily saying we only need 16 bit stuff so much as recognize that more than the later games
 
that's another good point - not blowing their load on genesis levels and throwbacks leaves the door open for sequel material/DLC. speaking of:

Professor Beef said:
Where's the goddamned DLC for this game, Sega? D:
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this is the most obvious candidate for quality DLC, and yet nothing. really hoping sega's push to step their shit up for digi releases makes them realize how much potential $ they left sitting on the table here.
 
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