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[Panajev2001a]

I do not see neither Nintendo DS games with a budget like top Nintendo 64 titles (which will affect original games the most) nor Sony/SCE PSP woth budgets like top PlayStation 2 games.

Will this affect quality over-all ? (likely yes)

Will people understand this when looking at either DS or PSP games and appreciate even more the games that manage to be great looking and great playing games ?

 

[DaCocoBrova]

I wish movies and videogames had much smaller budgets personally.

 

[BeOnEdge]

ports ports and more ports.

 

[DCharlie]

"Will this affect quality over-all ? (likely yes)"

Yes.

"Will people understand this when looking at either DS or PSP games and appreciate even more the games that manage to be great looking and great playing games ?"

No. People are already expecting PS2 level out of PSP, and by the sound of it, a lot of firms are been given "handheld" budgets to do this on.

 

[Panajev2001a]

"Will this affect quality over-all ? (likely yes)"

Yes.

"Will people understand this when looking at either DS or PSP games and appreciate even more the games that manage to be great looking and great playing games ?"

No. People are already expecting PS2 level out of PSP, and by the sound of it, a lot of firms are been given "handheld" budgets to do this on.

Well, let's see how much ease of programming does to things.

It will be a test for the XNA philosophy where programming challenges are like all there is to it.

PSP is undeniably easier to program for than PlayStation 2 and packs a LOT of power considering the screen resolution it has to render on.

Performance wise the PSP is no slouch.

 

[MightyHedgehog]

If PSP falls below Sony's expectations in unit sales (compared to DS and the new GBA), I predict that their 'stance' on no PS2 ports/conversions will be relaxed to allow for lower overall expenses on PSP titles.

 

[sprsk]

portable games have always had low budgets.

 

[DCharlie]

"Well, let's see how much ease of programming does to things.
It will be a test for the XNA philosophy where programming challenges are like all there is to it.
PSP is undeniably easier to program for than PlayStation 2 and packs a LOT of power considering the screen resolution it has to render on.
Performance wise the PSP is no slouch."

I'm not arguing with that.
It's just to get that power tapped is still going to need good coders, artists, musicians, level designers etc etc...
to get good results is going to take more cash, portable or not.

I think you'll get the situation where teams are under budget because people will still say "it's a handheld", and i think the results will reflect that.

 

[Ghost]

Port + Big Map = the DS equivilent of the GBA snes rush.



Sad but probably true. Maybe if it really takes off it might not happen, theres no reason it couldnt get some games with bigger budgets

 

[Panajev2001a]

"Well, let's see how much ease of programming does to things.
It will be a test for the XNA philosophy where programming challenges are like all there is to it.
PSP is undeniably easier to program for than PlayStation 2 and packs a LOT of power considering the screen resolution it has to render on.
Performance wise the PSP is no slouch."

I'm not arguing with that.
It's just to get that power tapped is still going to need good coders, artists, musicians, level designers etc etc...
to get good results is going to take more cash, portable or not.

Which is exactly my point and why I hate when Microsoft touts XNA as the solution to all of your problems: XNA, OpenMAX, etc... are a big help, but they do not do much for the biggest challenge: content creation.

 

[DCharlie]

"Which is exactly my point and why I hate when Microsoft touts XNA as the solution to all of your problems: XNA, OpenMAX, etc... are a big help, but they do not do much for the biggest challenge: content creation."

i didn't realise they had a handheld coming out....

I know what you mean though. But by the same token, the PSP / DS are in the same boat, as will the PS3/revolution/Xbox 2 etc....

At least MS are going to have something, Sony are trying to get something up and running, Nintendo?... anyones guess.

 

[jarrod]

Port + Big Map = the DS equivilent of the GBA snes rush.

Sad but probably true. Maybe if it really takes off it might not happen, theres no reason it couldnt get some games with bigger budgets

There's about 20-25 SNES/SFC ports on GBA... out of a library of 600 or so games. Whoops!

 

[Lord Error]

I predict that their 'stance' on no PS2 ports/conversions will be relaxed to allow for lower overall expenses on PSP titles.

Seeing that one of their premier games on PSP is GT4 Mobile, I doubt such stance ever existed, really. At least I've never seen it being confirmed by anyone outside of sources like Spong.

 

[Syckx]

I think that lower budgets mean we are going to see use of middleware in portable games (if it exists), and engines being recycled. I think it will just cause developers to be more resourceful with what they have on hand since they won't have the funds to create something new.

Anyone expecting console quality games are going to be disappointed. Before, the hardware just wasn't there, and now that the hardware is capable there isn't a large enough market to justify the amount of money required to make these games. Very few companies outside of Nintendo have become rich with portable gaming.

 

[Panajev2001a]

I think that lower budgets mean we are going to see use of middleware in portable games (if it exists), and engines being recycled. I think it will just cause developers to be more resourceful with what they have on hand since they won't have the funds to create something new.

Middleware and engine re-use is not the issue: content creation is... textures, polygonal models, levels, etc...

 

[jarrod]

So wait... are PSP & DS games being given GBA level budgets? Is that even possible (outside 2D stuff) making an original 3D game with 6-10 staff in less than a year?

I'm guessing larger publishers and 1st party teams are getting more funding/resources, but you'd think PSP & DS would be getting at least PS1/N64 level budgets. :/

 

[3phemeral]

portable games have always had low budgets.

Yea, I always though this was the case -- in fact, haven't portable game budgets increased? Obviously not as high as console production budgets, but if anything, the demand for higher quality portable games has only increased since portable gaming first began... and with more powerful hardware it'll only get more expensive.

The only exception to this rule would be any game that was reproduced for a future system ala Nintendo's Famicom lineup.

I don't think quality will take a hit at all. Of course, you'll gave your cheap gaming companies unwilling to shell out a decent budget for their titles, but for every 10 of those you'll have one major company that'll push the system to the limits. That always requires more effort, research, production time, and cost than most.

I think concerning relevency to console games, of course you won't find the budget anywhere near top tier N64 or PS1 titles. There's a point in time where you begin to reach diminishing returns, and it becomes pointless to push the system any further than it has to because of the hardware limitations. It's just like console games, only smaller scale. The PSP will definitely have a bigger budget than DS titles -- the tech is definitely more permiting. Of course, this is under the assumption that development for either portable is equal in terms of time and effort.

 

[Bizarro Sun Yat-sen]

Yea, I always though this was the case -- in fact, haven't portable game budgets increased?

The point is that they won't increase enough to keep up with users' expectations for the hardware. With profit margins already pretty low, developers won't spend more money unless they can make more money, and it's not clear that next-generation portable game sales will be any higher than current generation sales.

 

[snapty00]

I do not see neither Nintendo DS games with a budget like top Nintendo 64 titles (which will affect original games the most) nor Sony/SCE PSP woth budgets like top PlayStation 2 games.

Will this affect quality over-all ? (likely yes)

Will people understand this when looking at either DS or PSP games and appreciate even more the games that manage to be great looking and great playing games ?

You are aware that the GBA exists, right? I mean, you do know that Sony didn't invent portable games and that PSP won't be ushering in portable games...right?

Anyway, see GBA. This problem has existed for years, and neither DS nor PSP is going to change it.

 

[jarrod]

I do not see neither Nintendo DS games with a budget like top Nintendo 64 titles (which will affect original games the most) nor Sony/SCE PSP woth budgets like top PlayStation 2 games.

Do you see DS & PSP games getting similar sized budgets though? Will PSP games not get top N64/PS1 level budgets either?

 

[DrLazy]

This a very interesting topic. I'd like to hear from a portable developer's perspective. Crazymoogle? You around?

The fact that the portable teams will require more talent could be very stressful for Nintendo and Sony 1st parties to try and balance man power between their home and portable consoles.

 

[Bizarro Sun Yat-sen]

You are aware that the GBA exists, right? I mean, you do know that Sony didn't invent portable games and that PSP won't be ushering in portable games...right?

You're being remarkably dense as well as obnoxious. PSP and DS are much more powerful hardware than GBA, so software that fully exploits their capabilities will be more expensive to develop. Therefore if development budgets stay the same, yet users expect most software to exploit the hardware's capabilities, they'll be disappointed.

 

[3phemeral]

The point is that they won't increase enough to keep up with users' expectations for the hardware. With profit margins already pretty low, developers won't spend more money unless they can make more money, and it's not clear that next-generation portable game sales will be any higher than current generation sales.

Well, this poses a potential problem for PSP-type games (and a little less of an issue for DS games), considering Sony's stance on providing greater technological resources for the developers to meddle with. Depending on the price (and this is under the assumption that the initial cost will be very high), you reach a different (and smaller) demographic, reducing profit margins because of the smaller market penetration. Developers won't want to spend too much money because the returns won't be attractive enough to offer any incentive to do so. If people go in with the expectation that the PSP will be equal or superior to PS2 graphics, then you'll definitely be disappointed with a majority of the games that won't take advantage of the extra power. Of course, you'd have to assume that all of this is an issue only if people really do expect that much from portable gaming. GBA seems to be doing fine with it's minimal tech.

I don't keep up with the whole business side of the portable market, but are profit margins really that low? I thought the reason why portable gaming was so attractive was because of the potential for high-profit games off minimal budget expenditures? Sure, you'll have games that do very poorly, and then you'll have games that do extremely well (Golden Sun, FF, Pokemon), but that's the case for most console games too. Nothing is guaranteed to grant the developer easy profit, so of course the amount of money allocated to game development in any respect, whether it's console or portable will be affected and dependent on the franchise released and the platform developed for.

With the success of the GBASP, you can only assume that the market will be just a lucrative .. well, at least from a hardware perspective. With the PSP as competetion, we'll have to see how that affects Nintendo's market share. When you have a huge user base, it's up to the developer to decide how much of a risk to take concerning allocating funds to whatever game they decide to release. IIRC, the most successful titles in the portable market haven't necessarily been the most technically advanced. I think taking this into consideration, customer 'expectation' of the hardware won't have much of an affect on game sales because AFAIA, technically advanced games don't necessarily dominate the sales charts.

Therefore if development budgets stay the same, yet users expect most software to exploit the hardware's capabilities, they'll be disappointed.

I really don't know about it. As each hardware generation gets more advanced, development becomes more and more like its console bretheren. You'll have the big-budget studios that can pump out amazingly beautiful games because they have the money to do so, and you'll have the poor tech. games that don't. It's entirely dependent on market conditions -- so far it seems to be doing well for itself. Games will certainly be more epxensive, and I'm positive that because of the system capabilities and the game graphics, people will be willing to pay more money for seeminly better games (in the superficical sense). With this in mind, I'm sure the market can only get bigger as the content becomes more attractive to the general consumer (more casual/older gamer demographic), which opens the ability to reach a larger user base to profit from.

 

[Crazymoogle]

This a very interesting topic. I'd like to hear from a portable developer's perspective. Crazymoogle? You around?

It's definitely a worrisome issue, but there is no concrete answer yet. Nintendo and Sony don't want to talk about MSRP for games, and development hardware is both hard to come by and must be learned, so I imagine the first gen DS titles are going to be all over the map in terms of budget, staff, and end result. Studios all have their own assumptions, but all it takes is one breakthrough game to change them.

Will DS titles require higher budgets than GBA titles? Yes.
Will DS titles require more manpower than GBA titles? Yes.
Will PSP titles require higher budgets than DS titles? Probably.
Will PSP titles require more manpower than DS titles? Yes.
Will either handheld get budgets on par with a home console title? Probably not.

To be honest, the next 8 months for the DS is probably going to be a free-for-all of quality levels. We'll probably ultra-conservative games, near-ports, high-end...mainly because nobody is showing anything and the system has no direct hardware equivalent. With only a month and a bit til the retail launch, developers can only hope the quality level of their games are not blindsided by Nintendo's final lineup.

That the DS platform is so unusual is a distinct advantage with consumers though, I think. The PSP right now has been so clearly marketed as the PS2 on the road that developers have no choice but to make the closest thing to a PS2 game possible. The DS, meanwhile, is all over the roadmap. We've seen drawing games, Warioware minigames, Mario64 level 3D....but the hardware has so many achilles heels that it's neither an easy N64 port machine nor a 2D monster.

That disparity could keep the variety of games and their production values wide for quite some time as developers try to find the gameplay concepts that work best.

 

[Bizarro Sun Yat-sen]

You've got it right: either the handheld market has to expand or else users have to learn to appreciate less technically advanced games. I'd really like to see these things happen, especially the latter (of course as a sometime wannabe low-budget game creator, I'm very biased on this) but seeing the plight of the console market makes me pessimistic. The alternative is an even further intensification of the trends we've already seen: consolidation, franchise-itis, death of small developers, etc.