This is not an argument against anything I'm saying (and in fact it's not even a response to any point I raised in the comment you quoted). It's simply an emotional reaction that has no value for anyone but your own sense of worth.
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"What is rioting and looting accomplishing? Anarchy changes nothing!"
- Thread starter Amir0x
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This is not an argument against anything I'm saying (and in fact it's not even a response to any point I raised in the comment you quoted). It's simply an emotional reaction that has no value for anyone but your own sense of worth.
TheKaeptain
Banned
Exactly.
Vigilant Walrus
Member
What about the Mandela Tribunes South Africa or Gandhis peace protests? Peaceful ways do work. They really do. We don't have to cling to the old ways because horrible things eventually lead to good. It feels like a everything-is-relative-argument.
I've had this debate with several anthropologists and they all repeat what OP is saying: historically violent revolutions have been the main proponent of change. And maybe that is true, but that doesn't mean I have to support it when it causes the destruction of peoples lives who are caught in the crossfire.
Extremists scare me. And that is why I am neither a leader, a politician or an activist. I would never have it in me to make the necessary evil choices, even though I reap the rewards from those who came before me and directly or indirectly harmed many people.
My stance on it is that I don't understand the racial situation in America. It's barely comprehendable, so I won't judge the rioting and looting. It's impossible. But I see a man has his shop destroyed and his life ruined, and I feel for him. I see a video of a father who has 8 kids and they won't let him get to work because they are demonstrating and his entire life, and the life of his kids are being ruined by their only provider because something something larger is going on... My heart breaks. It's so incredible sad.
I've had this debate with several anthropologists and they all repeat what OP is saying: historically violent revolutions have been the main proponent of change. And maybe that is true, but that doesn't mean I have to support it when it causes the destruction of peoples lives who are caught in the crossfire.
Extremists scare me. And that is why I am neither a leader, a politician or an activist. I would never have it in me to make the necessary evil choices, even though I reap the rewards from those who came before me and directly or indirectly harmed many people.
My stance on it is that I don't understand the racial situation in America. It's barely comprehendable, so I won't judge the rioting and looting. It's impossible. But I see a man has his shop destroyed and his life ruined, and I feel for him. I see a video of a father who has 8 kids and they won't let him get to work because they are demonstrating and his entire life, and the life of his kids are being ruined by their only provider because something something larger is going on... My heart breaks. It's so incredible sad.
Massive Duck. C.M.
Banned
I'll go with nah
DragonSworne
Banned
Gotdatmoney
Member
Lol no, the history of the world is literally built off of violent revolution to make the powerful whom do not care for those below them listen. It's been documented time and time again. Civil rights was littered with violence and rioting and looting. This opinion you hold is literally proven wrong by the vast majority of history in the world.
IISANDERII
Member
That's because it wasn't nearly violent enough. Not nearly enough and that's the fucking sad truth.
Dude Abides
Banned
Sometimes violence works, other times (Homestead) it hurts.
Same with nonviolence. You guys are kinda being as simplistic as the people you're criticizing.
Same with nonviolence. You guys are kinda being as simplistic as the people you're criticizing.
But the OP is doing exactly the opposite. That's why the post I quoted confused me.
Wait did the old white guys steal from stores, beat innocent people with rocks, and steal purses from women?
Pagusas
Elden Member
"They happen because people are angry and blindly lash out due to that anger" You tried to pass of looting as a bi-product of anger and blindly lashing out, not as an actual conscious (and planned) action by individuals looking to take advantage of a situations.
The point is not that nonviolence doesn't work sometimes too. It's that the harsh reality is that there are times when both ways work. There are times when nonviolence has been tried for ages and nothing is accomplished and then violence follows and it changes things. And there are times when violence is the name of the game but it is nonviolence that eventually leads to the real change.
In any complex analysis of these events, one has to accept the harsh reality of what history has shown us. That is not the same as endorsing one action over another.
Pagusas said:
Because they factually are. If this anger did not exist in this community and these injustices did not occur and Freddie did not have what happened to him occur (as well as a zillion other racist police killings), this looting would not have occurred. You may call these people opportunists and leeches if it makes you feel better. They are still also angry and blindly lashing out. When you blindly lash out, sometimes you do morally reprehensible thing. That's why anger is frequently irrational, and sometimes leads to irrational results.
It's ok to analyze these events with nuance. They can be multiple things.
EdibleKnife
Member
People have made their voices heard and it has resulted in the same non-engagement as previous times.
Every single instance of police brutality goes like this:
Black people: "Fuck! I'm angry! Stop this shit!"
General public: "Are you angry?"
Black people: "Yes I'm angry! Didn't you just see the shit they just pulled?"
General public: "I know it's a bummer!"
Black people: "What the fuck! No no! How can people get away with that?!"
General public: "Yeah. That's not nice is it?"
Black people: "...."
General public: "...Are you angry?"
Black people: "YES I'M GODDAMN ANGRY!" *breaks vase*
General public: "Woah! What the fuck! Hey why don't you chill out you fucking monkey? I was sympathetic before but now you've shown your true colors huh?"
There have probably been more continuous protests since the death of Mike Brown that I can't even count on two hands with the majority being peaceful and still no change. I agree that rioting and looting aren't lawful but nobody actually asks why this level of rioting and looting doesn't go on at any point other than these times of turmoil within the communities. People are too quick to ignore suffering and react to chaos rather than consider what would make a group of people so scared, so angry and so frustrated that they'd use chaos as the only way to be heard?
Massive Duck. C.M.
Banned
They stole from Native Americans, Africa, the Carribean, and Mexico and whipped, beat, raped, and killed generations of slaves
How far do you want to take this game
Stereogatari
Banned
Exactly.
IncandescentPrecept
Banned
So, why exactly is there looting during riots? Is it to bring change? Also, what's the maximum number of people that need to be injured or killed for it to be not worth it,
Um, yes? Many innocent people were killed. There were rapes. There were stores looted during this time. They were wholesale thefts from entire peoples. What the heck lol
IncandescentPrecept said:
What's the maximum number of black people that need to be killed before the government does something and changes the institutionally racist and corrupt police?
You see how this works? If you're part of a community where your people are literally being murdered every day while the people who perpetrate those acts get off scott free, that's eventually over a long enough time going to boil over into explosions of anger in which people and businesses get hurt. You need to fix the problem in order for it to stop.
gutter_trash
Banned
(LA) When black looters got fended off by armed asian shop owners. It doesn't help the cause of rallying other minorities by attacking businesses owned by other minorities
IncandescentPrecept
Banned
Are the people who did that still alive?
No, no. My point was that when some name drop MLK as some absolute sign that nonviolent protest works, forgetting that it was far more complicated than that. It wasn't just peaceful walks and such that worked out, it was more of the fact that great people like MLK had to lose their lives just for progress to happen.
What? Umm, worse... There was straight up slavery during this period and worse. There is absolutely no way you thought that through before typing it. Must have just been a snark reflex.
Nice thread, Ami.
This is what I was trying to ask in the other thread. ARe you guys advocating for a violent revolution here?
This is what I was trying to ask in the other thread. ARe you guys advocating for a violent revolution here?
dinazimmerman
Incurious Bastard
Is there evidence that any of these riots would not have had a similar or greater effect had they been non-violent ? Is there any evidence that riots cause social change at all? Or are they simply symptoms of social transformations that would occur regardless?
Vanillalite
Ask me about the GAF Notebook
I'd argue people don't in the main way that matters aka voting. You look at the voter turn out, and it's low unless it's the one day people vote for president.
Voter turn out sucks for everything else.
hydragonwarrior
Member
Since we're on the topic of looting and such... it's like society isn't ready to deal with the issues on why people are driven to looting.
We can say opportunists and some people are just evil - but to look at the underlying infrastructure of ALL of that is also something that time and money should be spent on.
With this same thinking, a violent riot happens in place of a peaceful one for reasons that should be looked into. I don't like that it hurts innocent people, nor do I condone it, but *when* it happens - and the fact that I have to say *when* instead of *if* is troubling enough - those in power should try to look at the issue more in depth than just repairing the immediate damage and let society move on as if it's just another riot that has hurt the livelihoods of innocent people.
We can say opportunists and some people are just evil - but to look at the underlying infrastructure of ALL of that is also something that time and money should be spent on.
With this same thinking, a violent riot happens in place of a peaceful one for reasons that should be looked into. I don't like that it hurts innocent people, nor do I condone it, but *when* it happens - and the fact that I have to say *when* instead of *if* is troubling enough - those in power should try to look at the issue more in depth than just repairing the immediate damage and let society move on as if it's just another riot that has hurt the livelihoods of innocent people.
Kid Kamikaze10
Member
Some probably are, way more are benefiting from those crimes to this day.
Oh, and whoever brought up Mandela needs to recheck his history ASAP.
Well, moving the goalposts seems to be a favorite game for some people.
It wasn't directed to you, though.
So wait in their riots over taxes they did all this or are you just lumping all of their sins into an entirely different topic?
How far do you want to take this game
So what do you propose? Sit there and take just like how the community has "sitting there and taking it" for a very long time now. Go check policies surrounding the war on drugs, we've been the "bigger man" for well over a century now.
In fact the only reason why people are saying stuff is because now its all over social media.
Most people are apathetic, let's be real.
YES. They DID. You really need to read your history goddamn lol
IISANDERII
Member
You guys? Advocating? We've all advocated for the violence because we didn't do enough to stop injustice.
It's like you condone pushing a man off a building but then protest when he splatters on the ground. Makes no fucking sense.
Massive Duck. C.M.
Banned
Well, some people took care of the tax riots while the rest conducted business as usual.
You're quite bad at this
andthebeatgoeson
Junior Member
I went back in time, to the Boston tea party, to let them know that their message wouldn't be heard. As soon as I got out, a lynch mob formed, so I decided to come back to the future.
It's a bullshit premise. Violence has always been used as a tool and we have to let history prove which voice is heard. America won, as a minority. So, our history kind of refutes the idea that violence obstructs the message.
It's a bullshit premise. Violence has always been used as a tool and we have to let history prove which voice is heard. America won, as a minority. So, our history kind of refutes the idea that violence obstructs the message.
Kid Kamikaze10
Member
I bet he won't.
Gotdatmoney
Member
No, we're saying that rioting, looting, violence during situation of civil unrest are things that are common. We're saying that people who go "this is pointless, what does it accomplish" are literally ignoring the history of the world when they say that. Of course no one wants riots and violence. No one would ever want it to come to that, we're saying that when it does come to this it's not pointless and it does have a purpose and ultimately in the history of the world it does actually achieve change. I don;t understand how any could not grasp this concept.
Stop posting and go read some history before continuing further. You are absolutely barbecuing yourself right now by trying to sound confident, but being so wrong.
It was in response to a comment that praising for founding father rioting and criticizing this rioting was racist. So in specifically talking about the act of rioting, the comment is valid. Whatever heinous shit Thomas Jefferson did on his time wasn't really relevant to the topic. Otherwise we'd have to start bringing in the criminal records of all these "rioters" which I'm sure are all angelic. Rolls eyes
Script Kiddies LLC
Banned
People still asking decades later why they threw the trashcan through Sal's window instead of why the police killed Radio Raheem.
More like that person going to read about how to keep one's head down and tow the line.
Coriolanus
Banned
Alas, the United States managed to kill it's Mandela. Both of them.
gutter_trash
Banned
you better be sure to win because if you lose, you may end up with 40 years of Francisco Franco type of darkness
Script Kiddies LLC
Banned
Fantastic summary.
Educate me then, show me where Americans rioting over British taxes featured rape. Cause that is what I replied to. My cursory Internet search didn't turn up anything.
The whole "these people were no angels" routine is quite old and not effective in your diatribe.
lmao.
I mean quoting him not about riots, but trying to imply people should not riot using his words.
This is your point in a topic addressing people who say violence historically doesn't work?
Says the nitpicker who doesn't want to address the main argument.
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