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"What is rioting and looting accomplishing? Anarchy changes nothing!"
- Thread starter Amir0x
- Start date
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antisoulless
Banned
Call in the army and arrest them all.
CapitalismSucks DonkeyBalls
Banned
Violence for the sake of it will accomplish nothing. Violence, in times of crises, that are meant to be used towards some ultimate and achievable goal could be justified (wars, home defense, etc.). Rioting may send a message, but that message is indirectly conveyed and will be misinterpreted as anarchy just out of spite.
I watched the rioting unfold last night...watched about four straight hours of TV on it...more news I ever watched in the entirety of 2014, I simply just don't watch news, but this grabbed me.
I remember the Rodney King riots in LA, I was eight years old and watching live on TV, innocent people being dragged out of their vehicles and pummeled nearly to death. Furthermore, people setting fires to anything and everything, looting, stealing, simply causing chaos for the pure notion to cause chaos.
That's what I was seeing last night. You have people begging the fire dept to come put out the fire at the CVS store...then they get there, they're doing their job, they're putting their lives on the line to serve the people of that community...then you have rioters taking sharp objects to the firemen's hose and puncturing it. I'm sorry, but that's not protesting, it's not rioting because of racism or whatever other reason, it's purely causing chaos because they can.
The looting also wasn't surprising. Liquor stores, cash stores, and a beauty products store...all being looted. So, in times of need and a move for social justice, the liquor, cash and beauty products are of upmost importance?
It moved me this morning listening to one of the reverends say to a reporter that he is going to go gather the young people who were involved in the riots last night and ask them to come out and help clean up. He was calling on all members of the community to come out and help clean. Then seeing normal everyday citizens cleaning the trash and destruction caused by the rioters...that moved me as well.
I didn't see any means to the rioting yesterday/last night other than to simply cause chaos...not a single act of the riot was about Freddie Gray or any social justice movement. It was idiots acting stupid for the sake of simply being able to get away with it.
What I wish would have happened was the Mayor calling out to the rioters that you will be arrested on-site and you will be taken to jail...instead, cops were standing down and retreating.
The national guard is there...and I agree, they should start arresting anyone and everyone involved in the rioting.
I remember the Rodney King riots in LA, I was eight years old and watching live on TV, innocent people being dragged out of their vehicles and pummeled nearly to death. Furthermore, people setting fires to anything and everything, looting, stealing, simply causing chaos for the pure notion to cause chaos.
That's what I was seeing last night. You have people begging the fire dept to come put out the fire at the CVS store...then they get there, they're doing their job, they're putting their lives on the line to serve the people of that community...then you have rioters taking sharp objects to the firemen's hose and puncturing it. I'm sorry, but that's not protesting, it's not rioting because of racism or whatever other reason, it's purely causing chaos because they can.
The looting also wasn't surprising. Liquor stores, cash stores, and a beauty products store...all being looted. So, in times of need and a move for social justice, the liquor, cash and beauty products are of upmost importance?
It moved me this morning listening to one of the reverends say to a reporter that he is going to go gather the young people who were involved in the riots last night and ask them to come out and help clean up. He was calling on all members of the community to come out and help clean. Then seeing normal everyday citizens cleaning the trash and destruction caused by the rioters...that moved me as well.
I didn't see any means to the rioting yesterday/last night other than to simply cause chaos...not a single act of the riot was about Freddie Gray or any social justice movement. It was idiots acting stupid for the sake of simply being able to get away with it.
What I wish would have happened was the Mayor calling out to the rioters that you will be arrested on-site and you will be taken to jail...instead, cops were standing down and retreating.
The national guard is there...and I agree, they should start arresting anyone and everyone involved in the rioting.
hobblygobbly
Member
There is a time when civil discourse does nothing as much as you try and the only alternative is violent discourse. Apartheid in South Africa for example for decades tried to have civil discourse but the apartheid policies and government wanted nothing of it so it got to a point where it became violent. It's an inevitable outcome if civil discourse constantly fails.
However this doesn't make your actions excusable or justified as righteous. If one destroys or steals private property you should be held accountable and face the consequences because it's a crime. You're affecting someone's private business. Majority of protesters were peaceful and if you're one of the people that were looting and destroying private property then one should be accountable for what they did. Destroying public, government property is one thing, destroying private property is another. Destroying public government property allows you to make a statement and put your foot down to say you won't take this any more (i.e protesting the government) but when you do it to private property of a citizen that's an attack on someone personally and not in protest of the government. You don't protest the government by targeting private citizens. You target the government.
However this doesn't make your actions excusable or justified as righteous. If one destroys or steals private property you should be held accountable and face the consequences because it's a crime. You're affecting someone's private business. Majority of protesters were peaceful and if you're one of the people that were looting and destroying private property then one should be accountable for what they did. Destroying public, government property is one thing, destroying private property is another. Destroying public government property allows you to make a statement and put your foot down to say you won't take this any more (i.e protesting the government) but when you do it to private property of a citizen that's an attack on someone personally and not in protest of the government. You don't protest the government by targeting private citizens. You target the government.
Q
qizah
Unconfirmed Member
No one listens when you're quiet and peacefully protesting. Also, how can one be peacefully protesting when they live this shit all day, everyday. When you're told that your lives don't matter, when your discriminated against and when there are injustices are committed continually. Yeah I don't blame people for being angry, for being upset.
Check your privilege at the door.
There comes a point when enough is enough, so people do drastic things to get people to listen and pay attention.
That said none of this will change anything, America's racism and issues are only more provoked by shitty media coverage that is continually allowed and not combated against. It fuels racism.
Check your privilege at the door.
There comes a point when enough is enough, so people do drastic things to get people to listen and pay attention.
That said none of this will change anything, America's racism and issues are only more provoked by shitty media coverage that is continually allowed and not combated against. It fuels racism.
andthebeatgoeson
Junior Member
Give me liberty or give me death.
Violence doesn't solve anything.
Violence doesn't solve anything.
I think you're missing the forest for the trees and romanticizing the whole violent resistance thing.
One you can get the same result peacefully without the negative that comes along with going full retard burning things, the other is that any reform will happen because of peaceful protesters and adults working to create that change.
Are you implying stolen goods can't be resold at a later date?
Then you really didn't see it, did you?
Those results are directly linked to Freddie Gray and all the previous ones before him. Its the sad result of injustice and neglect....a consequence.
Want to be mad? That's fine, it sucks. I hate it myself. But let's not forget what caused the wound and then allowed it to be infected and swell for as long as it has.
The violence doesn't have to make sense. Most violence doesn't. Its irrational, but it does create a mental footnote to those who contributed to every event leading to it. Baltimore today, maybe their safe little town next.
JimtotheHum
Member
I agree with OP's premise, it's just sad it had to come to this. Rioting does work, but so does non-violent methods- there are historical examples of both. Violence just creates more victims and creates a lot of bad blood in the short term. I think we all hope that there is a non-violent way to resolve this very real issue.
Not a single thing last night caused by the rioters and looters had anything to do with what you just said.
The peaceful non-rioting protesters, yes, they were protesting for change. The riots...that was chaos for the sake of causing chaos.
I saw it plain as day. The protests were a result of Freddie Gray, the rioting and destruction was a result of simply being able to cause chaos.
Not a single one of those rioters were looting/destroying in the name of Gray. Please...
The rioters see opportunity to cause chaos because they can. There was a definite weakness in the Baltimore police defense...if there was any defense at all, it looked like a joke of a swat/riot protection team...so much chaos going on around them as they stood and let it happen.
graffix13
Member
So where does the line get drawn between rioting and domestic terrorism?
Terrorism: ter·ror·ism
ˈterəˌrizəm/Submit
noun
the use of violence and intimidation in the pursuit of political aims.
Riot: ri·ot
ˈrīət/Submit
verb
gerund or present participle: rioting
take part in a violent public disturbance.
"students rioted in Paris"
synonyms: rampage, go on the rampage, run riot, fight in the streets, run wild, run amok, go berserk; informal raise hell
"the miners rioted"
behave in an unrestrained way.
"another set of emotions rioted through him"
archaic
act in a dissipated way.
"an unrepentant prodigal son, rioting off to far countries"
Innocent people get killed in both. Property gets damaged in both. Both are results of political unrest. Are they different because one is about race and the other is about religion (generalizing)? Or does it become terrorism when someone straps a bomb to their body and blows themselves and others up? Because, that's just over the line, dammit!
Seriously, what's the difference? One is planned and the other is spontaneous? That's a pretty thin line.
If rioting is 'ok', I guess terrorism is....'ok' too?
Terrorism: ter·ror·ism
ˈterəˌrizəm/Submit
noun
the use of violence and intimidation in the pursuit of political aims.
Riot: ri·ot
ˈrīət/Submit
verb
gerund or present participle: rioting
take part in a violent public disturbance.
"students rioted in Paris"
synonyms: rampage, go on the rampage, run riot, fight in the streets, run wild, run amok, go berserk; informal raise hell
"the miners rioted"
behave in an unrestrained way.
"another set of emotions rioted through him"
archaic
act in a dissipated way.
"an unrepentant prodigal son, rioting off to far countries"
Innocent people get killed in both. Property gets damaged in both. Both are results of political unrest. Are they different because one is about race and the other is about religion (generalizing)? Or does it become terrorism when someone straps a bomb to their body and blows themselves and others up? Because, that's just over the line, dammit!
Seriously, what's the difference? One is planned and the other is spontaneous? That's a pretty thin line.
If rioting is 'ok', I guess terrorism is....'ok' too?
TatteredHat
Member
I seriously doubt that people WANT to riot, but they have become so driven into a corner that they do it out of desperation. I can't really blame them.
Angelus Errare
Banned
As long as people stop trotting out MLK's corpse and quotes I'd say we're making progress in this thread at least.
Kid Kamikaze10
Member
If peaceful protest is really so effective, then environmentalist would have gotten what they wanted a LONG time ago.
Same with Native Americans, and other minorities.
For every riot that has failed in America, there are thousands of non-violent ones that don't make a dent.
Riots bring awareness and a feasible threat of more to come; so when those peaceful protests happen, they can no longer be ignored.
Same with Native Americans, and other minorities.
For every riot that has failed in America, there are thousands of non-violent ones that don't make a dent.
Riots bring awareness and a feasible threat of more to come; so when those peaceful protests happen, they can no longer be ignored.
entremet
Member
I think people are misunderstanding violence with rioting.
Much of the damage of rioting is with property and infrastructure, not people, as least proportionally when you looks real violence in the form of wars.
As such the comparisons are weak. Many many people died in the American Revolution, Civil War and other encounters. That does show the power of violence.
I do agree that violence is powerful and civilization changing. History shows us this.
However, rioting, for the most part, is not as bloody as these encounters--thankfully--and tends to have net negative on economic development.
I do understand why it happens and MLK put it better than I could. I'm just not convinced at its efficacy as presented by the OP after taking time to read and come to my conclusions.
Much of the damage of rioting is with property and infrastructure, not people, as least proportionally when you looks real violence in the form of wars.
As such the comparisons are weak. Many many people died in the American Revolution, Civil War and other encounters. That does show the power of violence.
I do agree that violence is powerful and civilization changing. History shows us this.
However, rioting, for the most part, is not as bloody as these encounters--thankfully--and tends to have net negative on economic development.
I do understand why it happens and MLK put it better than I could. I'm just not convinced at its efficacy as presented by the OP after taking time to read and come to my conclusions.
cutmeamango
Banned
Violence achieves progress some times.
Spanking achieves education some times.
War on drugs achieves lower traffic some times.
Death sentences reduce criminality some times.
Spanking achieves education some times.
War on drugs achieves lower traffic some times.
Death sentences reduce criminality some times.
Rabbi_Vole
Banned
Give me liberty or give me death.. OR a flat screen, a case of pabst, a sharper image neck massager and a few handfuls of mound bars.
andthebeatgoeson
Junior Member
Don't forget the best one of all: less taxes on my tea. Earl grey, plz.
You don't want to go down this road. Very violent protests have happened in this country over financial matters.
Crazy to hear people on here being in favor of "anarchy" in this manner. For those with that opinion, I'd love to see this happen to your property and your neighborhood, and see if that doesn't change your opinion on the issue.
Personally, I feel that the vast majority of people involved in the looting and setting shit on fire, etc. are just opportunists that see a "get out of jail free" card to steal, cause damage and otherwise commit crimes without normal repercussions.
Personally, I feel that the vast majority of people involved in the looting and setting shit on fire, etc. are just opportunists that see a "get out of jail free" card to steal, cause damage and otherwise commit crimes without normal repercussions.
Angelus Errare
Banned
Baby boomers should be the last generation thinking they were non violent with their protests.
Violence for the sake of violence is never right, no matter the goal.
The issue with most rioting is it's reactionary. It's not about making a change to something, it's about anger and revenge. Many times, the targets of the vengeance are bystanders caught in the crossfire. Riots can change history, surely. But does the end justify the means? Not if innocent lives are damaged or lost.
Sometimes violence is the only answer. But violence directed towards innocents is not.
The comparison in this thread to the American Revolution is not apt. In 1776 the colonists didn't rebel against the British rule by burning down their own villages.
The issue with most rioting is it's reactionary. It's not about making a change to something, it's about anger and revenge. Many times, the targets of the vengeance are bystanders caught in the crossfire. Riots can change history, surely. But does the end justify the means? Not if innocent lives are damaged or lost.
Sometimes violence is the only answer. But violence directed towards innocents is not.
The comparison in this thread to the American Revolution is not apt. In 1776 the colonists didn't rebel against the British rule by burning down their own villages.
I don't like to romantice violence at all. Violence is always a messy affair, and to combine violence with stupidity does lead to calamity. But I do believe, however, in brutal, ruthless pragmatism. What I am seeing in these riots is a lot of political capital that could be employed in order to enact police reform that would be otherwise impossible to pass due to police syndicate resistance and the infatuation with law and order that a lot of the American public seems to have.
AlimNassor
Banned
Good for them. It's shameful they have to resort to this but, it's an evil taht's necessary. Remember everything that has happened today is on the Police, not the rioters. This could have all been avoided but, they'll never see eye to eye. Protesting gets you nowhere and anyone defending it has a naive view on how the world really works.
Angelus Errare
Banned
No but they did harm and kill many an innocent, so in that regard they might as well have added arson to the list.
Some, I'm sure did. And that's what I'm condemning.
I fully realize violence is sometimes necessary for change. But my point being that rioting frequently catches innocent lives in it's crossfire because It's misdirected (or not directed at all).
AlimNassor
Banned
I don't defend it but, what else can they do?
Kid Kamikaze10
Member
I wish people who get worked up about voting would actually LOOK at how voting rights/powers have been degrading for the past decade.
Sympathy was already attempted to be gained by many peaceful demonstrations and appeals to the institution that their methods were wrong. It's because the ones in charge have no sympathy to give that the turn to violence is necessary to demand those in power to act.
I would agree that it would be best if they could focus their actions as much as they could towards those responsible, the police officers injured so far is already more consequences for the institution because of their oppression than any courtroom or investigation would bring, but when such massed up tension explodes it would be near impossible to avoid any collateral damage even with the best leader in the world.
onadesertedisland
Member
Everyone victimized by rioting will become an adversary to the message, regardless of ethical agreement. This is the danger of violent upheaval. Sometimes the need for change outweighs this danger.
There can be a turning point where riots cause hardliners to dig in, this is a scary place.
There can be a turning point where riots cause hardliners to dig in, this is a scary place.
1.21Gigawatts
Banned
You have the powerless realising their powerlessness in light of the recent injustice.
If you are powerless you feel that you have no voice and no means to convey you anger with situation, no chance of changing anything about the situation.
Only natural that this results in violence, its a sign of desperation.
Its not like violence was the first thing people gravitated towards. We've had many instances where people peacefully spoke out about the injustices as there have been many similar cases in recent months and years, but nothing has ever happend.
If you are powerless you feel that you have no voice and no means to convey you anger with situation, no chance of changing anything about the situation.
Only natural that this results in violence, its a sign of desperation.
Its not like violence was the first thing people gravitated towards. We've had many instances where people peacefully spoke out about the injustices as there have been many similar cases in recent months and years, but nothing has ever happend.
The most immediate result of the rioting is going to be an increase in police force and power in Baltimore (which will now be justified, given the excessive violence in the city). Also, across the country people are now reflecting on how hard the police have it and what they're really dealing with in these cities. Rioting is not changing the hearts and minds of the people across the country. Not in the slightest. There's also a good chance that any long-term changes that come from this, won't have anything to do with Freddie Gray, they'll instead be focused on establishing better responses, should there be future uprisings (i.e. making sure more people are arrested). I don't see this playing out positively.
Kid Kamikaze10
Member
Right, and what does that say about the majority of Americans?
Because black people have known it for the longest.
Shouldn't it be concerning that the only way they can care is when peaceful black protesters are abused and harassed for their media consumption? Even then they are "no angels".
"...black people didn't earn civil rights, white people got less crazy. My grandfather didn't earn the right to sit down at the lunch counter as a white man, no, white people got less crazy, because its insane that someone can think they shouldn't eat with someone else because of the color of their skin."
— Chris Rock
AngryNapkin
Banned
I've always seen this as a chicken or egg problem tbh. On one side you have people who are generationally poor and feel there is no hope and as a result feel oppressed because of a compounding problem with police and their society.
On the other you have police who see this same society and enforce even stricter rules and feel threatened in their presence. It doesn't matter if they are good or bad people, it's the mentality that they have as a result. Some LEOs bad actions keep stirring the pot.
This just keeps compounding more and more and quite frankly there is no easy solution. There are a small fraction on either side that keep makin matters worse and it's going to be up to one side to make sweeping changes either the black community needs to stand up to those few who cause violence or a vast overhaul in the police force. Truthfully both needs to happen but one will not start without the other and we are back to the chicken or the egg scenario.
It's all very unfortunate, I moved away from the DC area 6 months ago and wish everyone there the best.
On the other you have police who see this same society and enforce even stricter rules and feel threatened in their presence. It doesn't matter if they are good or bad people, it's the mentality that they have as a result. Some LEOs bad actions keep stirring the pot.
This just keeps compounding more and more and quite frankly there is no easy solution. There are a small fraction on either side that keep makin matters worse and it's going to be up to one side to make sweeping changes either the black community needs to stand up to those few who cause violence or a vast overhaul in the police force. Truthfully both needs to happen but one will not start without the other and we are back to the chicken or the egg scenario.
It's all very unfortunate, I moved away from the DC area 6 months ago and wish everyone there the best.
Indeed I agree that is the risk of violent resistance, the possibility of forcing only bad change going forward. Short term restoring the order will be the police's objective but now they've seen some real consequences of their current policies. If the only takeaway from this is how better to suppress the violence and not how to solve the root problem of it then future uprisings will be inevitable and even more necessary.
Yeah, people act as if the violence came from nothing. As if the talks have not been endless. As well as the acts of pacification. But in the end, it was only words.
And at one time, the bomb you built blows up.
I know what true powerlessness feels like. Like pure utter life defeating shit. Of course I have been raised against violence, so I would always stay put. But the rage inside is all too real. Not many people would cut into their own flesh forcing themselves to stay calm. In the end, I am happy I did. But my life is shit. What was the purpose of those last 37 years again?
Basically the movement has to decide what they want, which is hard because protests/riots like this appear to be leaderless. They have some momentum coming out of some truly ugly police violence over the past few years. They will either turn that into political action or waste it.
BTW: "Fewer black people dead!" isn't a specific enough goal.
Maybe you could channel this energy into new civil rights legislation, it's been a while. Or the creation of a new department to investigate racially motivated police actions. Or maybe you just get a change of leadership throughout the Baltimore PD, which is probably the weakest outcome.
But future uprisings are going to be less likely to have any success, because the police forces will be focusing on preparing for them. Also, the more the violence increases, the more justified killing rioters will be seen. There's a very real threat that increased violence will be used as justification for further discrimination and outright reduction of rights. Also, the more degraded these neighborhoods become, the more you'll see those capable of leaving, leaving. If rioting becomes common, then people will eventually stop rebuilding in those areas. Meaning that the poor will be left behind, with an even smaller chance of ever being able to make it out.
It's the most dangerous of paths, when it comes to seeking change and the odds are more likely that it won't work.
Kid Kamikaze10
Member
You know what disgusts me more? The majority of the US knowing about and doing nothing about the police killing unarmed black people and more, then letting them walk.
And yet here we are.
Civil Rights Movement.
Kid Kamikaze10
Member
Clearly you only remember one part of it. It was multi-faceted, and there were plenty of proponents for self-defense.
And guess what? They had to defend themselves.
You can be appalled by institutionalized racism and murder of black people by cops and still disagree with the trashing of local businesses.
onadesertedisland
Member
There is no justification, but there is a definite understanding of the cause.
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