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What Jordan Peterson and James Demore got wrong

I'll have to come back later and cherry pick myself.

I wanna add that you'll find that emperical studies have mixed outcomes, and/or results. Studies have expanded to finding where Homogeneity has less productive effects such as in decision making, or where diversity adds to countering discrimination, and etc.
 

llien

Member
Saudi Arabia is generally a strange example to compare because while enrollment % is high in CS, workforce participation is way lower than in the US, so women still aren't working in the field there.
BINGO!
Anecdotal evidence alert:
In USSR, for instance, one of the motivations for people of certain gender to go to STEM fields was having wider choice of partners. The opposite (men going to female dominated fields with intentions other than studying) wasn't the case, as such men weren't really even perceived as worthy candidates, for whatever reason. (sounded like discrimination to me) Perhaps because finding good job with that background was rather hard, pardon my cynicism.

Another anecdotal evidence alert (from Indian colleagues I had dinner with a couple of days ago) : Indian women outnumber men at early stages in colleges, but many drop out without finishing education, even among those who finish, many do not work at all or drop out of workforce with a couple of years of experience. (marriage). Just lost a bright data architect from my team to that practice... :(
Marrying men are a bit older than spouses, as they are supposed to have stable income.

And to share my shock: more than 50% of marriages are still arranged. The progress is, that on top of, nowadays electronic assisted partner matching, parents, these days would show the photos of the prospect husband/wifes and ask for feedback. Girls are often more agreeable, doing what your parents tell you to is what is considered normal and people to whom I talked don't even see it as a problem "they are wiser and they want me to succeed". It is unthinkably rude to ignore parent's opinion even in quite intimate subjects such as "when to have kids". (most young couples are expected to do that immediately anyway)
Drinking/smoking is a terrible habit that would blacklist you so this kind of detail is omitted in otherwise close to reality profiles. Drinks are not offered at restaurants, you have to go to a pub.
 
Yeah, sorry for the misquote, there's a lot of different things discussed at the same time which makes it hard to keep track. Gender identity and biological sex are two different things but they correlate to such a high degree, that a causal link simply cannot be brushed aside. In fact, not many thing in biology and psychology correlate to such a high degree.

1. Should biological predispositions be things we as a society actually should follow?

If we should follow them, is a philosophical value problem that unfortunately does not allow for a universally true answer. What we certainly cannot do, is vilify people who defend such a stance. What I can say for certain is that most political systems that ignored and/or disrespected fundamental human nature failed horribly.

The best example would be communism. Making everybody equal may be a laudable goal in theory, but absolute equality makes people unhappy. According to relative deprivation theory, humans tend to define happiness relative to their peers. This means that people are happier, when they feel that they are better off than other people and they feel unhappy when they are worse off. This explains the fact that happiness distribution in poor countries is largely the same as in rich countries:



If you make everybody the same, then nobody really feels happy or unhappy. Then of course there is also the fact that people feel happy when they are rewarded for their hard work. In an absolutely equal society, like communism, making an effort does not make you happy, because you will never feel rewarded for working harder than other people. In that regard communism was not a tenable solution, because it simply failed to take into account human nature.

Now, I'm not making the case for unjust inequality, because if relative deprivation becomes too severe (i.e. the rich become richer and the poor become poorer), unhappiness will ultimately lead to civil unrest and destroy the social system (the French revolution would be such an example). But the way how humans perceive happiness would imply that some sort of healthy inequality is needed for societies to strive.

Please don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that women should be unequal to men (the example I stated does not pertain to gender difference). I'm merely saying that if certain differences are due to human nature, it would be counter-productive to engineer human society contrary to these biological predispositions. Yes, humans are to a certain extent rational beings, meaning that they can overcome their biological predispositions to a certain degree, but outright ignoring human nature makes them ultimately unhappy.

2. Biological predispositions don't account for other genders aside from the dominant 2.

As long as there is equality of opportunity, everybody is free to shape their life according to their needs.

2. We have no way of measuring this or quantifying it or even providing strong casual links beyond vague theories...

Yes we do, there are many empirical studies, like the one I linked above that manage to accurately measure the links between biological sex and gendered/vocational interests (here is a more palatable summary):



An effect size of 0.93 is insanely huge, if you consider that the smallest statistically significant difference is 0.2, medium is 0.5, and large is anything above 0.8. Just to give you an idea of how much these differences matter, here is an approximate visualization on Cohen's d scale. They differ almost a full standard deviation (the distance between 0 and 1):

5QVmtCq.jpg




If we take biological gender differences pertaining to vocational interests and compare the to the number of women working in STEM, we get the following picture:

fpsyg-06-00189-g001.jpg


As we can see, gendered interests match occupational numbers very closely in most fields. The study found that percentages of women within most STEM fields to mirror closely the gender differences in basic interests. Which would support to the preference-based explanation for gender disparities in STEM careers. The reason why so few women are in engineering, is partly because gendered interests diverge the most in these fields:



The study notes that the reason for that could also be gendered stereotypes (i.e. cultural influences). But you also have to take into account that, if given the opportunity, people tend to choose the field which match their strongest interests. So even if women have some kind of interest in mechanics, they still may have an even stronger interest in medical services. This would also explain why women are so over-represented in medical services, because they are a lot more people oriented than mechanics and electronics:



I really don't know how much more specific you can get. In case this is still 'too vague' for you, please show me any study that even manages to measure and/or quantify 'the patriarchy' in any perceivable way.

3. Biological predispositions is used, by some people, as a intellectual fill in for any gender difference where the reason for it isn't readily available, which is problematic for obvious reasons.

As you can see from the graphs presented above, there is still considerable overlap between men and women when it comes to their vocational interests. Nobody is arguing that biological predispositions are the end all be all to differences in STEM fields. But what we certainly cannot do, is simply assume that these differences are mostly due to sexism and/or discrimination. Most people just look at percentages of women in a certain field and simply assume that there must be some kind of discrimination going on because the distribution is not 50/50. This is exactly the kind of reductive reasoning that people such as Peterson are complaining about.



If you watch Peterson's video with Cathy Newman where he specifically talks about the multivariate approaches, that's exactly in line with the conclusions of the above presented study.



On the contrary, these kind of studies allow us to better understand these kinds of differences and if we can find huge discrepancies between natural interest and actual occupation numbers, we can assume that other environmental factors are at play and start a reasoned investigation. But so simply screech about female oppression everywhere we can see these distribution differences, is simply ridiculous and ultimately counter-productive.

4. Also, People who tend to subscribe to a "Biological predispositions" theory tend to completely ignore or downplay socialisation, which has obvious problems.

As explained above, it is quite the contrary. If distributions don't match natural interests, we can safely assume that other factors are at play.



In that sense, these 'biological' studies actually help us understand possible inequalities a lot better than abstract ideological notions that cannot even be measured. No evolutionary biologist or psychologist is making the case that we should simply accept these differences, but we should carefully intervene only when we understand them better and when they are not the result of people's individual choices. Otherwise you end up pigeonholing.

Again, radical ideologues merely refuse to take these biological explanations into account, because they largely contradict their oppression narrative. If you're truly interested in a more equal society, people would be wise to pay more attention to these findings instead of blindly following a political dogma.


1.

I think people become vilified when they use Biological predispositions as a reason to keep up social barriers (which undoubtedly have a huge effect on our current gender norms), or as a means to stereotype. I'm not saying that's you, I'm just clarifying why people would say such a thing.

I want to also point out that political systems that overly indulge parts of human nature have inevitably ended up harming people, and they will be cheered as they do so. I'm not saying that you want that, I'm simply pointing out that as a fact.

"I'm merely saying that if certain differences are due to human nature, it would be counter-productive to engineer human society contrary to these biological predisposition." The grand issue with this argument, for me, is that it overlooks the makeup of the amount of the differences that we're talking about. How much of these differences are biological predispositions? How much of it is our society? When society can clearly have an effect on what people are interested in, then. I'm not saying that we should control people's life outcomes, I'm simply saying that if there are clear social barriers that we shouldn't ignore them.

2.

There are so many versions of the idea of "Equality of opportunity", that it's hard to comment on this. "Equality of opportunity" that ignores the societal circumstances around that opportunity will always be lead to inequality, in my opinion.

3.

People's interests are not purely biological. There are many studies that show the effect of society on one's interests. We spoke about this a while ago, but the inventor study done in America shows a clear link between things like representation and interests. A role model of a certain demographic in a certain geographical area is clearly linked with an increase in interest by that certain demographic in that certain geographical area.

https://www.vox.com/2017/12/4/16706352/innovation-inequality-race-gender

Even in the study you're pulling from notes that "On the other hand, while the literature has consistently shown the influence of social contexts (e.g., parents, schools) on students' interest development, particularly the development of differential interests for boys and girls (e.g., Hartung et al., 2005; Jacobs et al., 2005), little is known about the link between biological factors (e.g., brain structure, hormones) and interest development"

Furthermore, I think when talking about "interests", we leave out confidence. I think it's reasonable to assume that how confident you are in a subject can have an effect on your interest in a subject. If you feel like you're not good at a subject you're less likely to be interested in a subject. This is backed up by studies that show that females in schools feel less confident about stem subjects than boys, even when they get the same grades, and that confidence in a subject is a pretty good predictor of what you end up studying. This observable confidence gap when people perform exactly the same is clearly a societal issue.

Related links below:

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/04/170406121532.htm

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-31733742

http://www.oecd.org/pisa/keyfindings/pisa-2012-results-gender.htm

To conclude, the studies you post aren't about biology, they're about what people's current interests are. There is no clear way to quantity how much of this is biological predispositions, which is my main point. This effect is multiplied by the fact that, there are many studies which show that society's impact on those interests. You can very easily quantify the differences between genders (which you've shown), but not shown how much the current gender differences are due to biological predispositions.

4.

"Most people just look at percentages of women in a certain field and simply assume that there must be some kind of discrimination going on because the distribution is not 50/50. This is exactly the kind of reductive reasoning that people such as Peterson are complaining about."

I completely agree with that, however I definitely feel like we should investigate those imbalances and see if there are any social barriers to them.


" if we can find huge discrepancies between natural interest and actual occupation numbers, we can assume that other environmental factors are at play and start a reasoned investigation"

Now here is where we fundamentally disagree. "Natural interest", as demonstrated above, can be so radically changed and set by society, that by using this thought process you would undoubtedly overlook an uncountable amount of examples of society moulding people to meet current norms. There are countless examples in the past of "Natural Interest" in something being kept down by the current societal norms, and that "Natural Interest" changing with society.

In this specific case, it's especially egregious because the amount of women interested in and taking part in Stem has radically shot up in recent decades as society has changed. I'm not saying there are no biological factors determining some part people's interests, but we have, as determined above, no way of knowing how powerful that is, whereas we have an uncountable amount of examples of how powerful society is in this regard. Hence why it looks like intellectual fill in to me.

4.

I've spoken about most of this in point number three. I simply want to stress again, individual choices are greatly affected by society.

If your point is that we should only look into environmental issues when "Natural interest" outpaces demand, then in my opinion you are ignoring socialisation, because socialisation has an effect on that "natural interest".

As I said above:

I think people become vilified when they use Biological predispositions as a reason to keep up social barriers (which undoubtedly have a huge effect on our current gender norms), or as a means to stereotype.
 
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llien

Member
I think people become vilified when they use Biological predispositions as a reason to keep up social barriers
Could you name an example of "a social barrier" please? Because I rarely if at all see any such claim being based on anything but mere "(always the same one) gender is underrepresented in field X".

Biology plays a role is an argument showing that such stats alone do NOT demonstrate that there are any barriers.
Notable mention: Uber driver gender pay gap 7%
 

Dunki

Member
Furthermore, I think when talking about "interests", we leave out confidence. I think it's reasonable to assume that how confident you are in a subject can have an effect on your interest in a subject. If you feel like you're not good at a subject you're less likely to be interested in a subject. This is backed up by studies that show that females in schools feel less confident about stem subjects than boys, even when they get the same grades, and that confidence in a subject is a pretty good predictor of what you end up studying. This observable confidence gap when people perform exactly the same is clearly a societal issue.

And i blame modern feminism for this. When you on a daily basis even as a young teen (teenvogue etc,) hear how difficult and unfair it is for women, how oppressed women still are aka the principle of Victimhood I also would lose my confidence. I would be too scared to try it if I hear how toxic it is for women which in fact are mostly lies anyway. This is where feminism should start build up girls confidence stop telling them lies stop manipulating them because it will fit your agenda. Also there are ton of great role models but media these days only talks about the "bad" and mostly exceptional stuff because it brings more clicks.

It will never talk about the history of someone in the game industry like Roberta Williams, You will never see something about Jane Jensen, Corrine Yu etc. You will always see the bad. And it is no wonder that girls can not build up any confidence or can not find role models because the so called games media does not talk about them.
 
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Could you name an example of "a social barrier" please? Because I rarely if at all see any such claim being based on anything but mere "(always the same one) gender is underrepresented in field X".

Biology plays a role is an argument showing that such stats alone do NOT demonstrate that there are any barriers.
Notable mention: Uber driver gender pay gap 7%

First, I would like to clarify, I agree with you, stats alone do NOT demonstrate that there are any barriers, however, my point is that when we see these stats we should investigate why they occur and if something potentially problematic is occurring.

Social barriers in current western society that affect women entering and progressing in certain fields are:

Implicit Biases in hiring, education and working environments.
Related links:
http://www.yalescientific.org/2013/02/john-vs-jennifer-a-battle-of-the-sexes/
http://www.pnas.org/content/111/12/4403

Gender confidence gaps that I spoke about in my last post.

Sexual harassment.

Internalised stereotypes as it relates male and female roles in child rearing. Paternity leave being so much lower than maternity in so many countries is kinda wild when you think about it.

And, representation.

Those are the big ones I can think of off the top of my head. We do, of course, have a bunch of social barriers which affect men in unhealthy ways.

And i blame modern feminism for this. When you on a daily basis even as a young teen (teenvogue etc,) hear how difficult and unfair it is for women, how oppressed women still are aka the principle of Victimhood I also would lose my confidence. I would be too scared to try it if I hear how toxic it is for women which in fact are mostly lies anyway. This is where feminism should start build up girls confidence stop telling them lies stop manipulating them because it will fit your agenda. Also there are ton of great role models but media these days only talks about the "bad" and mostly exceptional stuff because it brings more clicks.

It will never talk about the history of someone in the game industry like Roberta Williams, You will never see something about Jane Jensen, Corrine Yu etc. You will always see the bad. And it is no wonder that girls can not build up any confidence or can not find role models because the so called games media does not talk about them.

The numbers don't really bear this out. In that case, we should see the numbers of women in these fields decline over the last ten years, which doesn't happen to my knowledge.

Also, I think you need to look at and analyse modern feminism beyond what people post on the internet and what the latest outrage/controversy is. Go and look at TeenVogue's website right now and tell me what you see, especially compared to traditionally what teen vogue was (which is genuinely awful). "Good Night Stories for Rebel Girls" is one the best selling books in the UK right now, and it's for little girls telling them about cool women throughout history. Modern Feminists wrote that. If your viewpoint on modern feminism is that all they do is criticise and police people then you're ignoring a lot of what modern feminism is.
 
Go and look at TeenVogue's website right now and tell me what you see
You weren't talking to me, but I was interested myself so I went to take a look.

Tons and tons of articles about the gun control march, about how cool these people marching are, why they're doing it, what celebrities supported it, even giving the readers tips on how to participate.

Some stories about supposed racism and sexism as well. "Why aren't black people interviewed at the march?" "Hiring women should be normal" and "I hope Hollywood looks different in 10 years."

And then a handful of boring articles about fashion and stuff.

It's quite obvious this is not objective journalism. It's effectively leftist media for teens. I'm sure you think the content is great if you agree with them... It's just a different kind of brainwashing to me.

"Good Night Stories for Rebel Girls" is one the best selling books in the UK right now, and it's for little girls telling them about cool women throughout history. Modern Feminists wrote that. If your viewpoint on modern feminism is that all they do is criticise and police people then you're ignoring a lot of what modern feminism is.
In my time, bed time stories were there to get you to sleep. Now they're a carefully constructed pep talk, which is necessary only for girls apparently. That's just sad.
 

Dunki

Member
First, I would like to clarify, I agree with you, stats alone do NOT demonstrate that there are any barriers, however, my point is that when we see these stats we should investigate why they occur and if something potentially problematic is occurring.

Social barriers in current western society that affect women entering and progressing in certain fields are:

Implicit Biases in hiring, education and working environments.
Related links:
http://www.yalescientific.org/2013/02/john-vs-jennifer-a-battle-of-the-sexes/
http://www.pnas.org/content/111/12/4403

Gender confidence gaps that I spoke about in my last post.

Sexual harassment.

Internalised stereotypes as it relates male and female roles in child rearing. Paternity leave being so much lower than maternity in so many countries is kinda wild when you think about it.

And, representation.

Those are the big ones I can think of off the top of my head. We do, of course, have a bunch of social barriers which affect men in unhealthy ways.



The numbers don't really bear this out. In that case, we should see the numbers of women in these fields decline over the last ten years, which doesn't happen to my knowledge.

Also, I think you need to look at and analyse modern feminism beyond what people post on the internet and what the latest outrage/controversy is. Go and look at TeenVogue's website right now and tell me what you see, especially compared to traditionally what teen vogue was (which is genuinely awful). "Good Night Stories for Rebel Girls" is one the best selling books in the UK right now, and it's for little girls telling them about cool women throughout history. Modern Feminists wrote that. If your viewpoint on modern feminism is that all they do is criticise and police people then you're ignoring a lot of what modern feminism is.

They do not only criticize people they do not like which in the end is fine they are creating a state of victimhood and that is my biggest issue here. And I posted several times the mindeset of these teenvogue reporters
 
I think people become vilified when they use Biological predispositions as a reason to keep up social barriers (which undoubtedly have a huge effect on our current gender norms), or as a means to stereotype. I'm not saying that's you, I'm just clarifying why people would say such a thing.

Then why even bring that straw-man up in the first place?

People's interests are not purely biological.

Another straw-man. As evidenced by my last reply, I've clearly demonstrated that there is a lot of overlap between gendered interests. So nobody is saying that these interests are 'purely biological', but biological differences have to be taken into account when it comes to determining the possibility and extent of discriminatory practices.

If your point is that we should only look into environmental issues when "Natural interest" outpaces demand, then in my opinion you are ignoring socialisation, because socialisation has an effect on that "natural interest".

More straw-manning paired with a non sequitur.

Gendered vocational interests are not some metaphysical notion, they can be empirically quantified as I've just demonstrated in my previous post. Society has f*ck all to do with this as these differences have existed since the dawn of humanity across all cultures and civilizations (as evidenced by history, evolutionary biology and psychology). Just take a quick look at neuroscience and it will (hopefully) become evident:

One experiment examined the effects of stress on Pavlovian conditioning performance in both sexes and found that males' performance under stress was enhanced while female performance was impaired. Activation of the hippocampus is more dominant on the left side of hippocampus in females, while it is more dominant on the right side in males. This in turn influences cognitive reasoning; women use more verbal strategies than men when performing a task that requires cognitive thinking. The hippocampus's relationship with other structures in the brain influences learning and has been found to be sexually dimorphic as well.

Furthermore, I think when talking about "interests", we leave out confidence. I think it's reasonable to assume that how confident you are in a subject can have an effect on your interest in a subject.

Which would only reinforce what I said before. From the following study - Not Lack of Ability but More Choice: Individual and Gender Differences in Choice of Careers in Science, Technology, Engineering, and Mathematics:

These findings suggest that students’ math- and verbalability patterns in 12th grade predict their occupations at age 33, above and beyond the contributions of math and verbal ability, ability self-concepts, interests, occupational and lifestyle values, and family education and income. [high math and high verbal ability (n = 298; 63% females, 37% males)]

uAz4SZF.png


The pattern of gender differences in math and verbal ability may result in females having a wider choice of careers, in both science, technology, engineering, and mathematics (STEM) and non-STEM fields, compared with males. [...] Our study provides evidence that it is not lack of ability that causes females to pursue non-STEM careers, but rather the greater likelihood that females with high math ability also have high verbal ability and thus can consider a wider range of occupations than their male peers with high math ability, who are more likely to have moderate verbal ability. It is also important to acknowledge the potential frame-of-reference effects that may lead students with high math and moderate verbal ability to feel more confident in their math ability than in their verbal ability.

I think people become vilified when they use Biological predispositions as a reason to keep up social barriers (which undoubtedly have a huge effect on our current gender norms), or as a means to stereotype.

And for good measure, just another repetition of the same straw-man.

Honestly, why should I even keep discussing with you if all you manage to come up with are counter-arguments to things that I didn't even say? You just felt like being contrarian for the sake of being contrarian. But since you couldn't really find anything wrong with my reasoned and nuanced answers, you just decided to shift goalposts and formulate a whole lot of semi-coherent whataboutisms that don't even touch on anything I've said.

It took me a lot of time to explain this to you in my reply and break it down so that these complicated measures are somewhat digestible. I think to have sufficiently explained why understanding biological predispositions is essential when it comes to determining, measuring and eventually combating inequality.
 
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The female brain has tremendous unique aptitudes—outstanding verbal agility, the ability to connect deeply in friendship, a nearly psychic capacity to read faces and tone of voice for emotions and states of mind, and the ability to defuse conflict. All of this is hardwired into the brains of women. These are the talents women are born with that many men, frankly, are not.

Neuroscience! Gray vs White matter in brains! Joking aside one should always read this before really exploring neuroscience, it's a really good read: https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/c311/6421c5663aac73307a3ef9f6bfb764fc3bd6.pdf.

Start at page 2.
 
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I have a friend who's really into Peterson and while I respect his zeal and passion for the guy, I'm a little bit concerned about it getting out of hand. It's almost like evangelism or some authoritarian identity is starting to change him and he'll defend everything Peterson says with certain fallacies like whataboutism or just generally being contrarian about everything.
 

llien

Member
Neuroscience! Gray vs White matter in brains! Joking aside one should always read this before really exploring neuroscience, it's a really good read:

"Evolutionary psychology has produced questionable results."
"...it would be useless to try to decide which sex is “better” at tasks that require bodily-kinesthetic ability because on average females perform better at some of these tasks and males perform better at other types of tasks"

Author made this far reaching conclusion based on "the vast majority of accomplished ballet dancers are female".
There have been exactly zero boys in our local ballet school (and 50+ girls), sensiblechuckle.gif

Looks like an agenda driven piece of work that goes long ways to then suddenly jump to desired conclusion, no matter how unsubstantiated.


Gray vs White matter in brains!
Could you elaborate what is funny about it?

Males have 6.5 times more gray matter related to cognition and intelligence (gray matter processes information locally in the brain). Females have 10 times more white matter related to cognition and intelligence (white matter connects information between different brain processing centers). (Gurian, Michael, PhD., and Barbra Annis. Leadership and the Sexes. NY: Jossey-Bass, 2007. p 32-33)
 
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You weren't talking to me, but I was interested myself so I went to take a look.

Tons and tons of articles about the gun control march, about how cool these people marching are, why they're doing it, what celebrities supported it, even giving the readers tips on how to participate.

Some stories about supposed racism and sexism as well. "Why aren't black people interviewed at the march?" "Hiring women should be normal" and "I hope Hollywood looks different in 10 years."

And then a handful of boring articles about fashion and stuff.

It's quite obvious this is not objective journalism. It's effectively leftist media for teens. I'm sure you think the content is great if you agree with them... It's just a different kind of brainwashing to me.


In my time, bed time stories were there to get you to sleep. Now they're a carefully constructed pep talk, which is necessary only for girls apparently. That's just sad.

Teen vogue is not an objective media source. I never made the case that it was. A teen focused website running articles about a march driven by some of the most prominent teenagers in current American culture isn't crazy to me. Does it have a left wing slant? Yes, of course, that's plain to see, but in an era where most teens is more Liberal than the rest of the population (which isn't a new trend to my knowledge), I don't know how that's surprising or wrong. I wouldn't call that brainwashing though.

Sounds like you had sucky bedtime stories. Bedtime stories are, after all, mostly just children's stories read at bedtime. Children's stories are notorious for being filled with messages. This is just a book providing a fun and cool way for little girls to learn about female figures within history, there's nothing wrong with that. You make a children's book encouraging little boys to more open and expressive with their emotional issues then i will be there praising you every step of the way, as will most people.

Then why even bring that straw-man up in the first place?



Another straw-man. As evidenced by my last reply, I've clearly demonstrated that there is a lot of overlap between gendered interests. So nobody is saying that these interests are 'purely biological', but biological differences have to be taken into account when it comes to determining the possibility and extent of discriminatory practices.



More straw-manning paired with a non sequitur.

Gendered vocational interests are not some metaphysical notion, they can be empirically quantified as I've just demonstrated in my previous post. Society has f*ck all to do with this as these differences have existed since the dawn of humanity across all cultures and civilizations (as evidenced by history, evolutionary biology and psychology). Just take a quick look at neuroscience and it will (hopefully) become evident:





Which would only reinforce what I said before. From the following study - Not Lack of Ability but More Choice: Individual and Gender Differences in Choice of Careers in Science, Technology, Engineering, and Mathematics:



uAz4SZF.png






And for good measure, just another repetition of the same straw-man.

Honestly, why should I even keep discussing with you if all you manage to come up with are counter-arguments to things that I didn't even say? You just felt like being contrarian for the sake of being contrarian. But since you couldn't really find anything wrong with my reasoned and nuanced answers, you just decided to shift goalposts and formulate a whole lot of semi-coherent whataboutisms that don't even touch on anything I've said.

It took me a lot of time to explain this to you in my reply and break it down so that these complicated measures are somewhat digestible. I think to have sufficiently explained why understanding biological predispositions is essential when it comes to determining, measuring and eventually combating inequality.

From your original reply to me "If we should follow them, is a philosophical value problem that unfortunately does not allow for a universally true answer. What we certainly cannot do, is vilify people who defend such a stance." hence my reply. Strawmanning. It simply doesn't apply here. I explicitly say I'm not even mentioning you. My comment wasn't some way of me secretly attacking you or your personal positions, it is only me giving my slightly differing opinion on a cultural phenomenon than you.


Average mean gendered vocational Interests are not usable as a quantitative measure of biological predispositions. One, it relies on a self-reported test, for obvious reasons there are problems with using the average mean results from them as a measure of biology, we're relying on people to be able to accurately empirically assess their qualitative feelings towards things, this. Two, the results are not fixed per person, across time those results can change (the shortened version. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0092656617300879 the full pdf study https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/93a8/c674e7af31182c883ddb1ddf5d67dd07b882.pdf). Three, across country and culture vocational interests, have differences ( Personality Traits, Vocational Interests, and Career Exploration: A Cross-Cultural Comparison Between American and Hong Kong Students).

It can't be an accurate empirical measure of biological predispositions if individuals can change their vocational interests over time, it can't be an accurate empirical measure of biological predispositions if the average means of some vocational interests can change across culture, it can't be an empirical measure of biological predispositions if it relies on people accurately reporting their qualitative feelings. So, your "Society has f*ck all to do with this" is very much unwarranted here.

I haven't even mentioned the fact that the study that you originally cited agrees with me.

Although it is beyond the scope of the present study to provide a detailed exploration of the environmental, social, and biological factors that have contributed to the development of these sex differences, the findings presented here highlight the importance of understanding how sex differences in interests develop. Interested readers are referred to reviews such as those by Watt and Eccles (2008), Ceci and Williams (2007), and Ceci et al. (2009) for a discussion on the biological, psychological, and social processes and gendered vocational interests or career choices. It is crucial forresearchers, practitioners, and policy makers to better understand the course of vocational interest development and the factors contributing to individual differences in interests within the same sex. Why do some women become more interested in the STEM fields than others? Which stage in the developmental process is critical for the development of science and engineering interests? What factors may thwart or promote the development of science and engineering interests? To the extent that future research can answer these questions, it becomes possible to provide appropriate intervention for increasing girls’ interest in the STEM areas or attracting women to work in the STEM fields

http://emilkirkegaard.dk/en/wp-cont...-analysis-of-sex-differences-in-interests.pdf

It appears that what you're doing right now is using your ideological biases to jump from legitimate data to your already chosen conclusion. It's hard to think otherwise when you're using Vocational Interests, in a way that researchers completely don't do, because it's not purely biology as I have shown and as researchers have acknowledged.

But since you couldn't really find anything wrong with my reasoned and nuanced answers, you just decided to shift goalposts and formulate a whole lot of semi-coherent whataboutisms that don't even touch on anything I've said.
A parent always loves their children.

Biology clearly has a place in the debate about gender issues, that's not the argument.
 
Strawmanning. It simply doesn't apply here. I explicitly say I'm not even mentioning you.

Which is the exact definition of a straw-man... are you for real?

One, it relies on a self-reported test, for obvious reasons there are problems with using the average mean results from them as a measure of biology, we're relying on people to be able to accurately empirically assess their qualitative feelings towards things, this. Two, the results are not fixed per person, across time those results can change.

Yeah no, that's not how the study was conducted. I've already explained this here.

Two, the results are not fixed per person, across time those results can change (the shortened version. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0092656617300879 the full pdf study https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/93a8/c674e7af31182c883ddb1ddf5d67dd07b882.pdf).

I'm truly surprised to read that vocational interests are not the same thing as gendered vocational interests. Well done... whodathunk that necessity trumps all. Also have you read the study? Because 'lo and behold... gendered differences!

RzwzHO9.png


In conclusion the study even goes contrary to the point you're trying to make:

In addition, life events were examined as moderators of change. Rank-order stability was strong across vocational interest dimensions. Mean-level changes also occurred, with increases in Realistic interests and decreases in Investigative interests for men, increases in Enterprising interests for women, and decreases in Artistic interests for men and women. Individual differences in change indicated that not everyone changed in the same manner, with occupational experiences, such as job loss, related to greater change. [...] Our findings indicate that the rank-order stability of vocational interests are high throughout adulthood, though individuals on average also increased in certain interests (Realistic and Enterprising) and decreased in others (Investigative and Artistic). [...] The high rank-order stability is in line with previous literature (e.g., Kelly, 1955; Low et al., 2005). These stability estimates are particularly impressive when compared with those from a study of similar length during the age period immediately prior, with an average test-retest of r = 0.47 found over the 15 years between adolescence and emerging adulthood (e.g., Lubinski, Benbow, & Ryan, 1995).

Do you people sometimes even read the stuff you share?

Average mean gendered vocational Interests are not usable as a quantitative measure of biological predispositions. [...] It can't be an accurate empirical measure of biological predispositions if individuals can change their vocational interests over time, it can't be an accurate empirical measure of biological predispositions if the average means of some vocational interests can change across culture, it can't be an empirical measure of biological predispositions if it relies on people accurately reporting their qualitative feelings.

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You're really having trouble understanding the meaning of 'effect size'. I've tried to explain, but if you still fail to even comprehend this most basic notion, then you better stick to Teen Vogue.

I haven't even mentioned the fact that the study that you originally cited agrees with me.

No it doesn't, read it again. The study says cultural and environmental variables need to be studied when vocational interest and actual representation diverge. The whole point of the study is to show that biological influences are largely ignored when it comes to analyzing these differences. Hence why it's only normal for the study to reference environmental influences where it matters, because... wait for it... wait for it... nobody is denying the influence of culture when it comes to vocational interests! Shocker, I know. I even acknowledged this in my other reply!

It appears that what you're doing right now is using your ideological biases to jump from legitimate data to your already chosen conclusion. It's hard to think otherwise when you're using Vocational Interests, in a way that researchers completely don't do, because it's not purely biology as I have shown and as researchers have acknowledged.

That's rich coming from someone who fails to understand even the most basic notions of empirical quantitative research. Oh and btw, I was the first in this topic to explain and give an example of culturally influenced preferences. I don't know how many times this needs to be repeated, but nobody, absolutely nobody is making the claim that these differences are purely biological.
 
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Teen vogue is not an objective media source. I never made the case that it was. A teen focused website running articles about a march driven by some of the most prominent teenagers in current American culture isn't crazy to me. Does it have a left wing slant? Yes, of course, that's plain to see, but in an era where most teens is more Liberal than the rest of the population (which isn't a new trend to my knowledge), I don't know how that's surprising or wrong. I wouldn't call that brainwashing though.
Well, I expected them to be an example of some of the good things feminism does for the world, since that's why you brought them up in the first place, right? Then I go take a look, and it's just as dishonest and reactionary as all the other extreme leftist rhetoric I encounter. "Hiring women should be normal" well have I got news for you, TeenVogue! It already is! In fact, I think several women are working at your company right now! Well, maybe I shouldn't make fun of them for that. Maybe I just have an extraordinary talent for journalism. They should hire me, so I can write an article about the equal pay act of 1963 which ensures men and women get equal pay for equal work.

You make a children's book encouraging little boys to more open and expressive with their emotional issues then i will be there praising you every step of the way, as will most people.
Somehow it doesn't exactly surprise me you'd praise someone for writing a feminist book.

I just think it's a sad book. Why can't the book be about cool people in general? Not even flipping bed time is safe from identity politics now?
 

finowns

Member
I have a friend who's really into Peterson and while I respect his zeal and passion for the guy, I'm a little bit concerned about it getting out of hand. It's almost like evangelism or some authoritarian identity is starting to change him and he'll defend everything Peterson says with certain fallacies like whataboutism or just generally being contrarian about everything.

Steven Pinker actually talked about this in a panel. Around 32 minutes. (actually 38 minutes but you should listen to everything Pinker says.)



Also, I want to thank the Canadians for giving us Pinker.
 
Looks like an agenda driven piece of work that goes long ways to then suddenly jump to desired conclusion, no matter how unsubstantiated.

Eh, from what I've read, the book isn't half bad. She definitely tries to take a nuanced approach, which I think is pretty much in line with what Peterson says. At least she tries to view both sides of the discussion, which is laudable. Her position could be best resumed by this article:

About 14 years ago when I was conducting my research for the first edition my book Sex Differences in Cognitive Abilities, I had planned to show the weakness of the evidence in support of biological bases for any claimed cognitive differences between the sexes. If there were any differences, it seemed to me that they must be small and insignificant. Instead I found that the differences are sometimes large and that some of the biological data used to explain the differences were too strong and too consistent to ignore.

In discussing gender differences in cognitive abilities, I sometimes feel like a dentist who unexpectedly hits a nerve while drilling in the mouth of a sleeping giant. The reason for the intense nature of this controversy is easy to understand. There are serious social and political ramifications to concluding empirically that there are systematic sex and laterality differences in cognitive abilities. Such conclusions have a tremendous potential for misuse and abuse. They could be and have been used, for example, to justify discrimination, and or affirmative action based on one’s sex and preferred hand. Since sex and handedness are biologically determined variables that are not subject to individual control, then one is “stuck” with what one has. If these variables are also linked to thinking skills, then it implies that some aspects of intelligence and cognition are biologically determined.

The study of sex differences has also been criticized as being inherently sexist, because it creates an emphasis on the way women and men differ, while ignoring the multitude of similarities. This is undoubtedly true. But I find the reasons for conducting such research to be much more persuasive than those against doing so. First, arguments against studying individual differences are frequently based on the assumption that if the truth were known, women’s deficiencies would be revealed. In my text, Sex Differences in Cognitive Abilities, I call this the “women have less fallacy.” This is simply not true because researchers have shown that there are areas in which females, on the average, excel, and areas in which males, on the average, excel. But differences are not deficiencies. The study of sex differences, like any of the other individual or group differences that psychologists study, is not a zero-sum game where one group gains only at the expense of another. The problem lies not in the fact that people are different. It is in the value that we attach to these differences. Second, it is only through such studies that similarities can be revealed.

I think much of the problem arises from the radical left's inability to cope with these empirical findings. They think that the study of sex differences is indeed sexist and everybody who refers to these findings, such as Peterson, must therefore be sexist too. The Cathy Newman interview was a perfect example of this.
 

Dunki

Member
Steven Pinker actually talked about this in a panel. Around 32 minutes. (actually 38 minutes but you should listen to everything Pinker says.)



Also, I want to thank the Canadians for giving us Pinker.

I watched this video a few hours ago. IT was really interesting and spot on.
 
Which is the exact definition of a straw-man... are you for real?



Yeah no, that's not how the study was conducted. I've already explained this here.



I'm truly surprised to read that vocational interests are not the same thing as gendered vocational interests. Well done... whodathunk that necessity trumps all. Also have you read the study? Because 'lo and behold... gendered differences!

RzwzHO9.png


In conclusion the study even goes contrary to the point you're trying to make:



Do you people sometimes even read the stuff you share?



14821695.jpg


You're really having trouble understanding the meaning of 'effect size'. I've tried to explain, but if you still fail to even comprehend this most basic notion, then you better stick to Teen Vogue.



No it doesn't, read it again. The study says cultural and environmental variables need to be studied when vocational interest and actual representation diverge. The whole point of the study is to show that biological influences are largely ignored when it comes to analyzing these differences. Hence why it's only normal for the study to reference environmental influences where it matters, because... wait for it... wait for it... nobody is denying the influence of culture when it comes to vocational interests! Shocker, I know. I even acknowledged this in my other reply!



That's rich coming from someone who fails to understand even the most basic notions of empirical quantitative research. Oh and btw, I was the first in this topic to explain and give an example of culturally influenced preferences. I don't know how many times this needs to be repeated, but nobody, absolutely nobody is making the claim that these differences are purely biological.

Before I spend real time to actually provide counter arguments to what you've just said. Just to confirm you said this in your last post about this issue, which seems to completely go against what you arguing right now.

"Gendered vocational interests are not some metaphysical notion, they can be empirically quantified as I've just demonstrated in my previous post. Society has f*ck all to do with this as these differences have existed since the dawn of humanity across all cultures and civilizations (as evidenced by history, evolutionary biology and psychology). "

Culture is part of society, or am I wrong? Is there a nuance I'm missing in what your argument is?

Is your argument that vocational interests (split by gender) is an empirical measure of gender biological predispositions? Or is your argument that vocational interests (split by gender) suggests that there might be a gender biological predispositions at work here? Or is there a third argument I'm missing?

Because when you're talking about vocational interests and then say Society has f*ck all to do with this, then of course I will provide evidence to the contrary.
 

Broseybrose

Member
Before I spend real time to actually provide counter arguments to what you've just said. Just to confirm you said this in your last post about this issue, which seems to completely go against what you arguing right now.

"Gendered vocational interests are not some metaphysical notion, they can be empirically quantified as I've just demonstrated in my previous post. Society has f*ck all to do with this as these differences have existed since the dawn of humanity across all cultures and civilizations (as evidenced by history, evolutionary biology and psychology). "

Culture is part of society, or am I wrong? Is there a nuance I'm missing in what your argument is?

Is your argument that vocational interests (split by gender) is an empirical measure of gender biological predispositions? Or is your argument that vocational interests (split by gender) suggests that there might be a gender biological predispositions at work here? Or is there a third argument I'm missing?

Because when you're talking about vocational interests and then say Society has f*ck all to do with this, then of course I will provide evidence to the contrary.
This is always what happens when someone sensible legitimately tries to debate someone who has been successfully brainwashed by the left.

One side argues their points and the other side argues theirs, until, both exhausted, rather than the losing person admitting that they may be wrong, they start to pick at little (and totally irrelevant) incongruities or inconsistencies in things their opponent has stated over the course of the argument, to give the illusion of continuing to fight... to give the illusion that there is still a chance that they may win this debate...

My hot take. Jordan Peterson gets nothing wrong and James Damore doesnt even belong in this conversation. They are both Liberals in the purest sense of the word. Peterson, at least, pushes his theories to the edge, trying to find the line where they break apart. Damore was using proven science and nothing more in the memo that Google asked him to write (they asked for feedback on their diversity seminar).

It's a terrible thing that anything left of Nazi has been hijacked by radical SJWs. It fudged the entire left/right paradigm. You have to make a choice to NOT subscribe to ANY ideology in order to be a sensible thinker nowadays, and while that sounds like a good thing, it is extremely hard for young people to leave their ideologies behind, or at least put them in their proper frame.

I think it was Jung who said "People dont have ideas, Ideas have people."

edit - This is another great lecture from Peterson on the topic of ideology. I think it would be great if everyone who has participated in this thread would watch this and maybe learn something.
 
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This is always what happens when someone sensible legitimately tries to debate someone who has been successfully brainwashed by the left.

One side argues their points and the other side argues theirs, until, both exhausted, rather than the losing person admitting that they may be wrong, they start to pick at little (and totally irrelevant) incongruities or inconsistencies in things their opponent has stated over the course of the argument, to give the illusion of continuing to fight... to give the illusion that there is still a chance that they may win this debate...

My hot take. Jordan Peterson gets nothing wrong and James Damore doesnt even belong in this conversation. They are both Liberals in the purest sense of the word. Peterson, at least, pushes his theories to the edge, trying to find the line where they break apart. Damore was using proven science and nothing more in the memo that Google asked him to write (they asked for feedback on their diversity seminar).

It's a terrible thing that anything left of Nazi has been hijacked by radical SJWs. It fudged the entire left/right paradigm. You have to make a choice to NOT subscribe to ANY ideology in order to be a sensible thinker nowadays, and while that sounds like a good thing, it is extremely hard for young people to leave their ideologies behind, or at least put them in their proper frame.

I think it was Jung who said "People dont have ideas, Ideas have people."

edit - This is another great lecture from Peterson on the topic of ideology. I think it would be great if everyone who has participated in this thread would watch this and maybe learn something.


Please do explain how anything I just said was irrelevant to the debate.
 
"Gendered vocational interests are not some metaphysical notion, they can be empirically quantified as I've just demonstrated in my previous post. Society has f*ck all to do with this as these differences have existed since the dawn of humanity across all cultures and civilizations (as evidenced by history, evolutionary biology and psychology). "


Because when you're talking about vocational interests and then say Society has f*ck all to do with this, then of course I will provide evidence to the contrary.

He was not talking about vocational interests in that quote, he specifically said gendered for a reason. I.e. gender will have some effect on you regardless of society, even if society continues to shape you.
 
Just to confirm you said this in your last post about this issue, which seems to completely go against what you arguing right now.

Oh hey, look at how monkey society is tricking these poor male and female monkeys into choosing their toys. Down with this sexist patriarchal monkey culture I say!



He was not talking about vocational interests in that quote, he specifically said gendered for a reason. I.e. gender will have some effect on you regardless of society, even if society continues to shape you.

4M1GR.gif
 
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EviLore

Expansive Ellipses
Staff Member
T TheGraykid is posting respectfully and in earnest at all points here that I can see. It's fine to express some frustration about going around in circles over the course of an involved debate but please don't stone the chap to death haha or we'll be without a good contributor and distinct voice next time, and we shouldn't want that whether agreeing or disagreeing.

As an aside, I find that when I focus on pointing out logical fallacies too frequently it doesn't end up serving much of a productive purpose and can easily drag the overall tone negative and dismissive, introducing its own baggage. As much as logical fallacies undermine an argument by definition, disproportionately highlighting and focusing on the presence of 'em on the receiving end can undermine the substance of your rebuttal and diminish the capacity for ongoing civil dialogue between the parties. Sometimes it's absolutely necessary to call someone out if their argument revolves around a fallacy (all too easy to invoke one without realizing it at the time, too), but it's less worthwhile when engaging with someone in-depth as in here.

In a thread like this, lots of people are on the sidelines watching and reading all of it and appreciating the efforts of the participants (myself included), and that along with the intellectual exercise and insight into each other's perspectives are the main purposes and value of it to my eyes. Seeing a dozen logical fallacies invoked triggers me plenty, mind you, haha, but if I can be here keeping my chin up then it should be double chocolate cakewalk for the bright and level-headed folks here to keep it chill and not get bogged down by some frustrating components that are inevitable to some extent with all this point by point break down.

At the end of the day it's an imminently interesting conversation with inherent value there, and while I'm all for blowing up people who deserve it when those situations arise, there's a time and a place. Like I just said in the JP thread tonight: affording the other party respect and dignity are prerequisites for getting to somewhere worthwhile in a discussion between opposing viewpoints. We're not robots and no one's expected to be here, just...mm, it bears considering sometimes what your goals are in a given debate: winning, dominating, exposing and humiliating the other party, potentially driving them away and fostering negativity all around, for ego points and cheers from the crowd and catharsis? Or maintaining mutual respect and dignity that had been successfully established, in order to get somewhere productive together to whatever extent feasible, achieving a positive outcome even if your respective positions haven't moved at the end of the day? The same substance with slightly different scaffolding can make all the difference there.

Just some friend advice.
 
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